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EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of May 2017

Hello everyone and welcome to this developed diary on setup changes in the Greater Russian region!

For the upcoming 1.22 patch we’ve had another look at modern Russia and Belarus. This is a region that has received attention previously but we feel that it was not up to the level of detail we have become accustomed to in other parts of Europe and that it could not properly reflect the lay of the land in the region in 1444.

The Russian Principalities in 1444:

In 1444 Russia was still divided into a number of principalities, in many ways this is the result of the constant interference from the Golden Horde. The Khans had defeated and divided the early Russian principalities and have come to not only exact tribute from the remaining states here, but have also acted as king-makers and guarantors of princely power.
As the game opens however the Golden Horde is going through a rough couple of decades with external pressure and internal struggles, historically ending in its general breakup into a number of much weaker successor states.
The Great Horde in our start date is what remains of the core of the Golden Horde but others, such as Crimea, would in time come to conquer and attempt to usurp their role as the overlord of the Russian states.
What this means for the Russians is that while horde intervention is still a factor in local politics, they have now been given some time to grow and thrive. As one of the main collectors of tribute for the Khans, Muscovy is now in the process of building a strong power base and has already used a combination of bribes and coercion to secure control over land of the minor princes in the region.


eu4_30.jpg


As you can see, in 1.22 we have chosen to greatly expand the number of provinces in this region. This allows for a greater degree of detail in the warfare in this region both between the principalities themselves and between the Russians and the Tatar hordes.
We have also taken the opportunity once again to adjust the development of the Russian region a bit, increasing it slightly to allow the states here to better make their mark upon the world.
In 1.22 one of the things this means is that some of the states we know and love are no longer the same. Ryazan is now a 4 province state and Yarloslavl and Tver are now 2 and 3 provinces respectively.

Muscovy:
First of the Russian principalities we have Muscovy itself. In 1444 this is already the dominant native power and in 1.22 it is the overlord of no less than five smaller principalities. The expanded number of provinces ensures that all is not lost simply from one battle or one siege, there is now room to move around when Kazan, the Great Horde or Lithuania comes knocking.
The greater detail has also allowed us to better show a number of centers of regional importance, giving it more of the historical depth that we have come to expect of other regions where we have overhauled the map.

Among the changes to the setup for Muscovy is also a revision of their ideas. Muscovite Ideas are now separate from those you get for forming Russia and currently look like this:

Muscovite Ideas:

Traditions:
Diplomatic Relations +1
Shock Damage Dealt +10%

1. Gatherers of Tribute: National Tax Income Modifier: +10%
2. Legacy of Dmitriy Donskoi: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.5
3. Seat of Metropolitan Bishop: Missionary Strength +1%, Tolerance of True Faith +1
4. Pomestnoe Voisko: Land Morale +10%
5. Strength of the Boyars: Stability Cost Modifier -20%
6. Zasechnaya Cherta: Fort Maintenance -20%
7. Descendants of the Byzantine Emperors: Diplomatic Reputation +1

Ambition:
Land Force Limit Modifier +33%

The decision to form Russia will in turn give a new set of ideas should you choose to abandon your old Principality ideas.

Russian Ideas:

Traditions:
National Manpower Modifier: +33%
Core-Creation Cost: -10%

Land of the Rus: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Siberian Frontier: Colonists: +1
Russian Artillery Yard: Artillery Cost: -10%, Artillery Combat Ability +10%
Life-Long Conscription: Land Force Limit Modifier: +50%
Abolish the Mestnichestvo: Yearly Corruption: -0.1
The Table of Ranks: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.25, Advisor Cost: -10%
Broaden the Curriculum of the Cadet Corps: +5% Land Morale, 10% less fire damage received

Ambition:
Yearly Legitimacy: +1

New Playable Countries:
In EU in general and in Russia in particular there’s always a decision to be made of what is to be a province with high autonomy and, what should be a subject state or even independent. Our game enforces strict differences depending on what you pick but in reality it was quite possible in many cases to be somewhere in between.
In the case of Russia in 1444, Muscovy is in possession much land that really belongs to a minor principality that they have somehow acquired (often by simply buying the land from the princes in control of it) or that is ruled by a prince that has moved to the court in Moscow, allowing the Muscovite's to administrate it for him. In 1.22 we have taken another look at how we want the Muscovite lands to be portrayed and added two new vassal tags:

The first is the small state of Rostov, between Tver and Yaroslavl. This principality was in many ways quite firmly under Muscovite control ever since its princes had sold off half of the lands to Moscow, but Rostov would not be integrated entirely until 1474.
Rostov has a long and interesting history and would continue to play an important part in Russian politics every now and then, even as a part of a greater Russian state. We therefore thought it would be an interesting addition to the mix of states you can play in 1444.

Rostov Ideas:

Traditions:
Provincial Trade Power Modifier: +10%
Idea Cost: -10%

Re-Unification of Rostov: Goods Produced Modifier: +10%
Ancient Heritage: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Ecclesiastical Center: Tolerance of True Faith: +2
Entrepot of Russia: Trade Efficiency: +10%
Rostov Architecture: Construction Cost: -10%
Political Influence: Diplomats: +1
Rostov Enamel: Production Efficiency: +10%

Ambition:
Diplomatic Reputation: +1

The second new state we have added is one in the north, right at the border with Novgorod. The principality of Beloozero was never a metropolis and is long past its glory days in 1444. Ruled by Muscovite princes it would formally be incorporated directly into Muscovy in 1486 and its nobles would mostly make their mark upon the world within the frames of the Russian Empire. It's position is an interesting one however and our game history might unfold differently.

Beloozero Ideas:

Traditions:
Trade Efficiency: +10%
Infantry Combat Ability: +10%

Martial Heritage: Cavalry Cost: -10%
Monastic Traditions: Yearly Prestige: +1
Strengthen Local Lineages: Yearly Legitimacy: +1
Northern Trade: Domestic Trade Power: +25%
Officers of Beloozero: Yearly Army Tradition +0.5
Boreal Warfare: Attrition for Enemies: +1
Scientific Patronage: Technology Cost: -5%

Ambition:
Goods Produced Modifier +10%

Novgorod:

eu4_28.jpg


In the far north we have broken up some of Novgorod’s bigger provinces. Novgorod's domains always presented something of a difficulty to portray in that many of these locations had little in terms of population, yet contributed to the overall wealth of the Republic.
It also gives Novgorod some much needed strategic depth when fighting Muscovy to the south.

Lithuania:

eu4_31.jpg


Lithuania has long been a region in need of greater detail. In 1.22 we have broken up and reshaped many of their provinces, especially in the northeast. When adding new provinces we have tried to accommodate important regional centers, the internal administrative divisions of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth as well as the gradual expansion of Muscovy and later Russia into Belarus and the Ukraine.
As this was a highly contested region for much of the period covered by the game this should should hopefully make the region a lot more interesting to play in. It should also allow for a more engaging conquest for strong neighboring states...

That was all for today!
Next week’s developer diary will be written by Johan and may or may not touch on more things that could impact the region...
 
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Heh, even in a patch focused on the area Russia gets nerfed. The old ideas were poor and those are actually worse. You'd have to be insane to take those over the Muscovy ideas (which actually aren't terrible, still lacking when compared to other historical GPs but not terrible).
 
Do the extra provinces mean that it's harder for Muscovy to conquer countries like the Great Horde and Novogrod.
 
It's absolutely horrible. Just like devs take all suggestions, mixed them up without any order, without any attempt to understand and dumped them into the game.
Map ugly as hell, but NI... :confused:
 
Also, i see how they took part of my suggestion without noticing that they were build aroung certain theme. It comes from my idea of Military Focused idea set fo Russia, where it gets 10%/15%/20% discount on artillery while getting 10% fire damage as next idea. Considering, that in set there also were 10% morale and 30% fl - ideas were too strong in my opinion.



Having more provinces and more land to take from Novgorod all means that in the mid-game institution will be VERY painful slow spreading from province to province especially if you are slightly bigger than historically Russia border.

When you toss in the institution deadzone that is PLC. Russia might as well go force institution to speed it up. We all know how AI is "very smart" about that! As in not really.

Might as well change it to lower threshold before you can buy into institution in additional to 20% spread. If you want to stay with this set of idea.

Last idea is total ahistorical nonsence. But, oh well, they already brought life-long conscription. Yes, there was such thing. But it had a lot of small subtleties. Like, if you became soldier you became free. Soldiers were demobilized and, often, became workers in factories/manufacturies. It gave big MANPOWER POOL to state, but, with that, they also served in garrissons etc. In time a lot of rules for this was changed - idea won't represent that. It changed to 25 years in 1793, for example. Idea won't represent, that peasant communities, nobles and others were able to CHOOSE whom they would send. They were getting pensions if they weren't able to work after demobilization...

And Poland WAS deadzone. As Livonizn order. Cause, well, they wanted Russia to be weak.



Second patch in ce/ee where everybody around Poland got something and Poland gets nothing again . reallly paradox?

Nerf to Russian ideas is pretty good boost to Poland :3
 
Second patch in ce/ee where everybody around Poland got something and Poland gets nothing again . reallly paradox?

Are you kidding ? Poland is already OP because of the starting PU with lithuania and the ahistorical amount of dev it gets, if anything it should be nerfed even more.

I can't remember one game in more than 1200+ hours of playing where AI Russia came on top of an AI PLC (which forms in 90% of the games).
 
I'd leave evaluation of Muscovite and Russian ideas until we get some news on changes coming to Orthodox and what king of features that new Russian governments have (and we know from a stream that all these are coming).
 
Last idea is total ahistorical nonsence. But, oh well, they already brought life-long conscription. Yes, there was such thing. But it had a lot of small subtleties. Like, if you became soldier you became free. Soldiers were demobilized and, often, became workers in factories/manufacturies. It gave big MANPOWER POOL to state, but, with that, they also served in garrissons etc. In time a lot of rules for this was changed - idea won't represent that. It changed to 25 years in 1793, for example. Idea won't represent, that peasant communities, nobles and others were able to CHOOSE whom they would send. They were getting pensions if they weren't able to work after demobilization...

And Poland WAS deadzone. As Livonizn order. Cause, well, they wanted Russia to be weak.

I don't get what manpower pool has to do with institution spread modifier but OK.

My biggest worried is that Russia will be "treated" as rest of the world in term of how long they have to wait for institution spread to reach them. There are only a few institution they can easily spawn themselves. Most of them are quite late ones. If they are really lucky they might get printing institution via Sweden going Protestant.

It is the Renaissance and Colonialism institution that I am most worried about. If I am playing as Muscovy in 1.21 I would force those two institution to spawn and AI doesn't do that very well.

For example I was playing as Shogunate -> Japan. I was able to spawn all of 5 institution and Ming right next door couldn't do anything about their own tech penalties (not that they need any discount >>).
 
I don't get what manpower pool has to do with institution spread modifier but OK.

My biggest worried is that Russia will be "treated" as rest of the world in term of how long they have to wait for institution spread to reach them. There are only a few institution they can easily spawn themselves. Most of them are quite late ones. If they are really lucky they might get printing institution via Sweden going Protestant.

It is the Renaissance and Colonialism institution that I am most worried about. If I am playing as Muscovy in 1.21 I would force those two institution to spawn and AI doesn't do that very well.

For example I was playing as Shogunate -> Japan. I was able to spawn all of 5 institution and Ming right next door couldn't do anything about their own tech penalties (not that they need any discount >>).

It's pretty easy to get institutions via Genoa.
 
My two cents to what what was already mentioned in this thread.

My proposed changes are in yellow.

yIZR1d6.jpg


1, Please add the province of Chelm, to add more historical borders for Poland and Lithuania. (it belonged to Poland in 1444.
2. Move the city of Lwow/Lviv more to the west, where it is really located (green X). Also the province of Lwow itself is a bit off, so I would move it completely to the west, as in the picture.
3. The eastern border of PLC from the XVII century - please rearrange province borders so it's more historically accurate, something like the above.

Best regards
 
I don't get what manpower pool has to do with institution spread modifier but OK.

My biggest worried is that Russia will be "treated" as rest of the world in term of how long they have to wait for institution spread to reach them. There are only a few institution they can easily spawn themselves. Most of them are quite late ones. If they are really lucky they might get printing institution via Sweden going Protestant.

It is the Renaissance and Colonialism institution that I am most worried about. If I am playing as Muscovy in 1.21 I would force those two institution to spawn and AI doesn't do that very well.

For example I was playing as Shogunate -> Japan. I was able to spawn all of 5 institution and Ming right next door couldn't do anything about their own tech penalties (not that they need any discount >>).

Sorry, meant another idea about lifelong conscription xD Just butthurt about ideas.

I still think that they could come up with better anme for Institution Spread idea...

Well, it was problem that Muscovy always faced - keeping up with Europe. It should be tied to ports and suchlike for getting institutions.
 
WOOOHOOO!!! Muscovy is my favourite country to play, and eastern-northen Europe are my favourite regions. Three-province Tver and two-province Yaroslavl bring a joyful tear to my eye ;). I sincerely hope that Siberia gets and upgrade too. I think that it's pretty sad as it is. It should be at least as good of an expansion route as colonising the Americas. It should be something worth fighting over.
 
Could the RUS finisher have an alternate effect for NOV?

It would be better if Traditions came from your Principality. Each one would have its own:

There is another idea - make separated Russian ideas and Muscovite ideas. More than that - create separate traditions for different centers of uniting Russia.
  • Muscovy-centered Russia will have -20% core creation (gathering of Russian lands) cost and +25% manpower as tradition (big standing army).
  • Novgorod-centered Russia will have republican tradition (Veche, which is a lie, but people love it so much) and trade efficiency (trade republic and stuff).
  • Ryazan-centered Russia will have for defence (it was border and shield against hordes) and cavalry combat ability (this should represent Don cossacks).
  • Tver-centered Russia will get development discount (Tver was one of the most deveoped and populated principalities - nearly 160k during 15th century) and production efficiency (was renown as center of crafts).
  • Yaroslavl-centered Russia will have idea/technology discount (Grigorievskyi Zatvor was the first educational institution in Russia first mentioned in 1210 and moved to Rostov in 1214) and prestige (illustrated literature, icons).
  • Pskov-centered Russia will have fort defence bonus (border with Livonia) and, maybe, goods produced modifier.
  • Nizhny-Novgorod-centered Russia will have trade income bonus (city on main river) and force limit size (border city with standing army).
  • Perm-centered Russia will have...just kidding. This Principality had population of 6k in 16th century (yes, in game it has army bigger than its population xoxoxo).
Modifiers can be changed, but idea is simple - to represent in traditions the center.
 
Compared with the current:


+25% National manpower modifier
−20% Infantry cost

−15%
Core-creation cost
+50% Land force limit modifier
+10% Manpower recovery speed & −20% Culture conversion cost
+10% Production efficiency
+1 Colonists
+0.5 Yearly army tradition
+20% Institution spread

+50% National manpower modifier


Assuming you're gonna have 3 or 4 of these unlocked by the time you actually do form russia, RCC coming in earlier is meaningless and is just a straight-up nerf. Manpower is massively nerfed, production efficiency is replaced by another economic filler, the army tradition is a joke, 20% institution spread is a joke, legitimacy is a joke, 10% artillery cost is a complete joke, 10% AE isn't bad per se, its just nearly useless for russia who can expand in all directions. The colonist is alright, the force limit is good, although half of it is wasted as you have no way of affording it until 1700.

Although the economy ends up being about where it was you're stuck with LESS army quality, and a lot less manpower.


You could double every single of these bonuses and the set would still be carried entirely by the RCC.

As a first impression I agree with this. Muscovy strong at the start (more development, more vassals, more obnoxious to deal with if nearby than ever) but Russia weaker than ever later on is pretty vexing. I'm not sure why a formable like Russia needed to be nerfed but it clearly was.
 
Muscovite ideas are tier-2, IMO and are quite good for a regional power

I think Russian ideas should accumulate best parts of all Russian principalities: manpower boosts, force limits, army morale, shock damage or artillery CA (pick one), +AT or shock damage, colonist, core-creation discount and some more non-combat stuff.