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CK2 Dev Diary #50: A Reason for War

Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!
 
Cheers for the DD rageair :). All the new CBs sound quite interesting. As others have mentioned, there does feel like there might be a bit of a risk of making things even more snowbally (apparently not inconsistent with recent May weather over there?), but from your replies it sounds like this is a strong consideration in balancing it all, so all sounds good :).
 
As a person who plays Republics fairly often, I wish there was a Punitive Measures CB where I could go after people that raided my trade posts or counties; a big blow to the target's prestige and maybe burning some of their buildings to the ground would be a nice payback.

Anyway, the most important question to me about the Free Hostages CB is: Will there be an event to build a giant wooden horse during a siege?
 
Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).

I think hostages shouldn't prevent wars in general, but only if they'd instantly give the defender 75% or more warscore (the AI could still not do it in general, but don't restrict the player). The defender should also get a choice what to do with the hostages at the start of the war (normally choosing to keep them) and then again periodically if their warscore is negative.
 
Thank you a thousand times for including the "Free Hostage" CB! :D
 
This should probably be its own thread but I for one would really like to see the whole "let's go to war" process expanded greatly.

First off, there is never any warning for war, it's just "This is a formal declaration of WAR !". At the very least, a player should get a warning event, something along the lines of "Your Chancellor has warned you that there are rumblings of war at the court of Lord X". The chance to get the warning should start with a certain chance of success based on Diplomacy, increased greatly if your Spymaster or your Chancellor are in the area to Set up a Spy Network or Improve Relations.

In a perfect world the warning process could be expanded into a complex event chain - multiple steps with an ever increasing warning level until war is effectively imminent. At that point the target should be able to offer all sorts of inducements to forestall or even void the war - an exchange of hostages, a one off tribute (eg Danegeld), a personal Duel (if both are Tribal or Nomadic), arbitration by the Pope or some similar "neutral" third party (and all the threats, bribes and Favour-calling that would entail), or even a sale or gift of the target province concerned, if any. Losing a border county might be bad, but way better than losing the county plus 100 gold and 200 Prestige if there is no chance to win the war !

I also like the idea of adding to a war's victory conditions at the expense of warscore, I would love to see war's drag on and on and on until the only option left is White Peace by either side.
 
This should probably be its own thread but I for one would really like to see the whole "let's go to war" process expanded greatly.

First off, there is never any warning for war, it's just "This is a formal declaration of WAR !". At the very least, a player should get a warning event, something along the lines of "Your Chancellor has warned you that there are rumblings of war at the court of Lord X". The chance to get the warning should start with a certain chance of success based on Diplomacy, increased greatly if your Spymaster or your Chancellor are in the area to Set up a Spy Network or Improve Relations.

In a perfect world the warning process could be expanded into a complex event chain - multiple steps with an ever increasing warning level until war is effectively imminent. At that point the target should be able to offer all sorts of inducements to forestall or even void the war - an exchange of hostages, a one off tribute (eg Danegeld), a personal Duel (if both are Tribal or Nomadic), arbitration by the Pope or some similar "neutral" third party (and all the threats, bribes and Favour-calling that would entail), or even a sale or gift of the target province concerned, if any. Losing a border county might be bad, but way better than losing the county plus 100 gold and 200 Prestige if there is no chance to win the war !

I also like the idea of adding to a war's victory conditions at the expense of warscore, I would love to see war's drag on and on and on until the only option left is White Peace by either side.
I'd expand that with the threat system, have it show the people with appropriate CBs to use on you and the odds that they might attack you in the near future. Same tab as adventurers and factions.
 
I'll withhold judgement (cuz of the dev assurances) but this really sounds like it's gonna make blobbing (especially AI blobbing) much too easy.
 
I posted this on Steam but thought it was a good idea so Ill post it here too.
I'm re-watching the Tudors and Henry VIII's advisers were fearful that Charles V, King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor would go to war in support of his aunt, Catherine of Aragon.

If we got a CB against those who dishonor their marriage to our dynasty (divorce or murder (caught or attempted)) or if they become rivals with their spouse (but the spouse has to ask us for help in that case).

Edit:
Not sure if Chopak was asking me, I'm assuming he was so.
Result of winning the war (as the aggressor) would be the marriage is reinstated (If divorced) or if they are rivals, upon enforcing demands you get an event to decided the fate of the marriage, either the couple is divorced, thus protecting your dynastic member from their rival or you force the ruler to abdicate their throne to their heir (if the heir is of the union that has given cause to you fighting a war).
Winning the war (as the defender) would result in the marriage ending (if rivals). If your divorced and win the war (as the defender), would yield a large sum of money, the normal win a defensive war plus the amount of a dowry to the divorced marriage (you marry a kings daughter, you get the dowry of X gold, some time later divorce said kings daughter, her father declares a War of Amalgamation (sorry if that is not correct, was looking for a more realistic name then War of dynastic union), you win said war, the king pays you the Y amount of gold for winning a war that was declared against you has you normally would, but plus X gold also).
 
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What would be a war result of those vangance/rival/dishonored CBs?

Maybe the offending person in question could be made prisoner and the person summing us to attack would become the regent?
 
Regarding Free Hostages CB:

I would like it as a diplomacy option "Declare utimatum to release" where targets prison guard either release hostage or a war is started(Much like "Revoke Title" works today). To trigger it via "Declare War" option makes messy - target might have many prisoners of my court - but ofcourse you must fill the criteria for declaring war!

What happens if targetet hostage dies? End of war?!
What do I loose if I loose the war? Some prestige? Prisoner loose tie to my cought and instead belongs to prisonguards court? :D
 
Nice additions too an already amazing game!

Some of my thoughts ...:
I think you should be able to go to war even if you have a close relative in prison! However with a huge risk that your relative get executed or something like that. In that case that CB is over but maybe you can get a new one ... Like avenge CB? Not sure how it would work or if it's the smartest idea, but i would enjoy it.
 
I love the free concubine CB, and I agree that you shouldn't declare war if a child is a prisonner. Mostly because losing a hostage isn't that bad for the player, aside from the RP.

Kingdom-sized invasions... The restriction that the target must be stronger than you means that blobbing won't be made any easier - if anything, France will use it against the HRE, not the other way around. How do you define "stronger" in that context? More troops?

I share the worries of other posters about the Force Vassalisation of other realms. 30 realm size is a LOT, I think it's the one with the biggest risk of imbalance. It is rather fun to conquer the British Isles as England, this new CB would make it faster, but I'm not convinced that it would make the game more interesting.

IMO, De Jure Duchy Conquest can work for an empire. The Roman Empire has this for free on the entire map and from my experience it is still not a particularly effective way to expand. I do like the idea to complete your empire faster once you have established it.
As a kingdom however, it will be extremely powerful, and I have the same comment as with force vassalization: the game at kingdom level is really fun as it is, this CB would make it faster and not necessairly more enjoyable. If player would marry duchesses rather than pressing county claims, I'd say this is for the best. Marriages should IMO be better than De Jure CBs.
 
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Someone wrote early on this thread that christian conquest from christina targets without a claim is very unchristian for the era of CK2.

But still it happens all the time already in game - Peasant and Liberation uprising for example! I advocate unlimited "CB" - IE make them up and suffer the consequenses! Pope will hate conquerers..... Or.... will he? :p
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?

For Muslims I could see getting this kind of cb against a very decadent target while having very low decadent themselves. Some other restrictions and costs should probably apply, like only being able to use it against realms larger than your own and paying piety.

I don't quite know about other religions and am just throwing stuff out there.
 
Personally, I think that it would be fitting that rulers which have these hostages should have a tendency to execute (or humiliate etc) the hostages when pressed in war, based on their traits. For example, a very virtueous and pious ruler will not execute the hostages when provoked, but a satanic wrothful devil-worshipper might be so eccentric.
Rulers with the Just and Honest traits should always choose to execute them. Because the main reason of holding hostages was to deter someone from attacking you. And if the attacker chooses to ignore that threat, then the honorable thing to do is to stay true to the rules of warfare by executing the hostages. Because keeping hostages but then choosing not to execute them when the push comes to shove would be seen as hypocrisy.

On the other hand, Deceitful, Craven, or Arbitrary rulers might let them live as bargaining chips, but that should cost them prestige.

And if the hostages are executed, then the attacker should get a large hit to prestige and possibly also negative opinion from the rest of his dynasty. After all, everyone will be thinking: "They were being held hostage, so what did he expect to happen? Either he's a fool, or he wanted them dead.."
 
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