• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Getting really close to having something available for beta, all that's left in the positions file is eastern Germania and Scandinavia.

I also started adding some key mountain passes to some of the more strategic choke-points of the era (add a little tactical/strategic flavor to warfare/expansion).

I MIGHT have something available for beta release late tomorrow, but I need to figure out how I'm going to host this download. I don't want to spend any money :p

20170723004447_1.jpg
20170723004350_1.jpg
20170723004356_1.jpg
20170723004403_1.jpg
20170723004412_1.jpg
20170723004420_1.jpg
20170723005606_1.jpg
20170723005632_1.jpg
20170723005931_1.jpg
 
Last edited:
You still have work to do in Mesopotamia and the Caucasus. Just FYI. Start by looking at our river borders in both places, and you will spot the inaccuracies in where you have drawn your boundaries pretty quickly
 
Last edited:
Sticking borders to rivers where it shouldn't is actually a bad idea.
 
Sticking borders to rivers where it shouldn't is actually a bad idea.

That might be so (i don't want to pretend that our borders are completely infallible) but if he wants to stick with his current boundaries, he have to juggle around quite a few baronies, because they are not situated in their correct provinces anymore with the current boundaries
 
Last edited:
That might be so (i don't want to pretend that our borders are completely infallible) but if he wants to stick with his current boundaries, he have to juggle around quite a few baronies, because they are not situated in their correct provinces anymore with the current boundaries
My answer wasn't directed to you ;) I've spotted a few weirdnesses in France area from the current preview map.
 
My problem with Mesopotamia is that the borders are based on an imaginary kingdom of AL Jazira. In my opinion, at this time, al Jazira should really be a smaller kingdom of Christian Syriacs/Assyria which is focused on the lands between the Euphrates and Habor Rivers. As you move east you have the modern lands of Kurdistan, Iraqi and Iranian, which, at the time, was also primarily Syriacs (Eastern Syriacs) centered around Mosel. Kurds were really small in number at the time and swamped by Syriacs and Armenians in modern Northern Iraq, Eastern Turkey and Western Iran.

This brings me to my other problem with Mesopotamia. And I say this personally being part Armenian, the "Kingdom of Armenia" is based on a classical kingdom of Armenia. Armenia hat this time really should consist of an Eastern/Persian Armenia in the east and a Western/Byzantine Armenikon in the West. Armeniakon should absorb the eastern lands of the k. of Armenia and westerns lands of k. Of Ikonion. Ikonion should be renamed to the Kingdom of Kappadokia.

My borders are based on the above. I know the current kingdom setup doesn't match that, but I'll have to deal with that later.
 
Last edited:
Mesopotamia is on of my favorite regions on the planet that I worry that too many people think of it in modern Islamic/Arab/Iraqi terms. The region was populated by a hugely diverse range of peoples for most of history (certainly up to this mods start date) and was constantly being pulled by eastern and Western influances. Arabs/Islam were NOT a majority in upper Mesopotamia until modern times, but the kingdoms setup doesn't really reflect that.

Same goes for Armenia/Western Anatolia, there were Eastern and Western "Armenia" at the time. The current kingdom of Armenia would be more familiar to Paracles and Alexander the Great than to Basil the Makedonian (who, himself, likely had family ties from Armeniakon)
 
Last edited:
My problem with Mesopotamia is that the borders are based on an imaginary kingdom of AL Jazira. In my opinion, at this time, al Jazira should really be a smaller kingdom of Christian Syriacs/Assyria which is focused on the lands between the Euphrates and Habor Rivers. As you move east you have the modern lands of Kurdistan, Iraqi and Iranian, which, at the time, was also primarily Syriacs (Eastern Syriacs) centered around Mosel. Kurds were really small in number at the time and swamped by Syriacs and Armenians in modern Northern Iraq, Eastern Turkey and Western Iran.

This brings me to my other problem with Mesopotamia. And I say this personally being part Armenian, the "Kingdom of Armenia" is based on a classical kingdom of Armenia. Armenia hat this time really should consist of an Eastern/Persian Armenia in the east and a Western/Byzantine Armenikon in the West. Armeniakon should absorb the eastern lands of the k. of Armenia and westerns lands of k. Of Ikonion. Ikonion should be renamed to the Kingdom of Kappadokia.

My borders are based on the above. I know the current kingdom setup doesn't match that, but I'll have to deal with that later.

I got that already, but you're throwing away accuracy at a lower province/barony level to make the Kingdoms fit into the borders you desire

The Baronies does not fit the new borders at all. Which was my main point. If you want to keep the new borders you have a lot of work that needs doing with juggling the baronies around to fit into the new borders.

Splitting up Armenia into 2 Kingdoms make zero sense though, but that is your choice if you decide to go in that direction. The differences between Persian and Byzantine Armenia had long been washed away by first having Armenia unified under the Empire and then under the Arabs. Vassal ties extended throughout most of the territory that the Kingdom extends across for most of the CK2 timeperiod. SWMH starts in 867 not 590
 
Last edited:
I got that already, but you're throwing away accuracy at a lower province/barony level to make the Kingdoms fit into the borders you desire

The Baronies does not fit the new borders at all. Which was my main point. If you want to keep the new borders you have a lot of work that needs doing with juggling the baronies around to fit into the new borders.

Splitting up Armenia into 2 Kingdoms make zero sense though, but that is your choice if you decide to go in that direction. The differences between Persian and Byzantine Armenia had long been washed away by first having Armenia unified under the Empire and then under the Arabs. Vassal ties extended throughout most of the territory that the Kingdom extends across for most of the CK2 timeperiod. SWMH starts in 867 not 590

I Agree, and the Arabs were not removed from Armenia until almost 900 Ad. Before that the kingdom was broken up since Rome originally started fighting over it with Persia, followed by the Arabs. A short independence followed which was quickly followed by being split again between Byzantines and Turks.

Following the rules of this game, at what point do de facto rules start weakening. With all that being said, if Armenia and "Armeniakon" were re-unified for the first time since the Hellenistic Era, then a new Greater Armenian Kingdom could come into existance.
 
Last edited:
I'm perhaps bit late to the party, but haven't you thought it would have been easier and more practical to first fix the borders where inaccurate, and then do the lositions?
It could save you from doing the positions twice.

As for province borders, you could also take mountains as a clue for improving them.
In regions like Maghreb and Bohemia (where I have suggested few fixes) tbey might be helpful (along with rivers)

Concerning nirthern Mesopotamia. I think that the kingdom of AlJazira is ok, it isn't that ahistorical from.
It was only rarely united, but...
The Abbasids had it as a (kingdom size) province, it was the power base of Hamdanids and later Zengids.
That's not to discourage you from creating Greater Armenia as de-jure kingdom. After all, I like Armenian rennaisance period in the 10th century and from what I know even the contesting kingdoms of Vapourakan, Ani, Kars and Suinik all shared common heritage, I just don't understand what the de jure kingdom of alJazira has to do with it, since it would be all south from Armenia, almost entirely.
I still think that theKing made pretty amazing job in making this region look great. Redrawing it into your liking is your choice, but as he has said, then you would need to rework all that minor (and annoying) minor work he has done inside the provinces.
Just take it as unqualified opinion however... froma qualified perspective I would be much more content if you'd do something with Sijilmasa and Bohemia. Btw seing Bohemia as it looks now, I really do hope you will do something with it. It is completely out of its shape
 
Yeah, I'm just having a friendly debate, I'm not planning on doing any big revamps until my next beta version. King makes some very good points. Both of us can have some equally correct points :p

I enjoy a good debate without needing to feel personally attacked.

I'm not very well versed in central europe, so I'll take a peak before I release anything.
 
I'm perhaps bit late to the party, but haven't you thought it would have been easier and more practical to first fix the borders where inaccurate, and then do the lositions?
It could save you from doing the positions twice.

Just as an added note, as best as I could, the actual capital cities are correctly located in the real world location of capital city. King is talking about the extra holdings, which I have not had time to delve into the holdings of each province like that. Being that I had to convert provinces from CKII's smooshed map to mine, please be patient and not get too upset about the 4th or 5th holding in a province not falling into it. If I'm looking at each province like that I would never finish. I'll try to correct them as we go.

As a second added not, I am rushing france, central and northern europe a bit so I can get something released. I'll go over the them again later.
 
Just as an added note, as best as I could, the actual capital cities are correctly located in the real world location of capital city. King is talking about the extra holdings, which I have not had time to delve into the holdings of each province like that. Being that I had to convert provinces from CKII's smooshed map to mine, please be patient and not get too upset about the 4th or 5th holding in a province not falling into it. If I'm looking at each province like that I would never finish. I'll try to correct them as we go.

As a second added not, I am rushing france, central and northern europe a bit so I can get something released. I'll go over the them again later.
I'm really sorry for being a moron here. There seems to be misunderstanding. My point wasn't about holdings, but about actual province and their capitals locations. Just please don't take it as nitpicking...

But unfortunately, the parts which I know in person don't seem to be as accurate as you say. For instance in Bohemia the entire provinces of Zatec and Litomerice are supposed to be north-west of where your map's Bohemia ends - thus those provinces and their capitals are not accurate. I'm really sorry if it sounds like nitpicking. I am just trying to be helpful and save you time, but I came too late.

Perhaps if you send me (can be via PM) a detailed screenshot of Bohemia and its surroundings, I might be able to help you. OTOH it seems that similar ptoblem would also be in Germany - judging just from the surroundings of Bohemia.

PS: and sorry for typos in my posts. I'm mostry writing from a mobile phone.
 
Last edited:
I'm really sorry for being a moron here. There seems to be misunderstanding. My point wasn't about holdings, but about actual province and their capitals locations. Just please don't take it as nitpicking...

But unfortunately, the parts which I know in person don't seem to be as accurate as you say. For instance in Bohemia the entire provinces of Zatec and Litomerice are supposed to be north-west of where your map's Bohemia ends - thus those provinces and their capitals are not accurate. I'm really sorry if it sounds like nitpicking. I am just trying to be helpful and save you time, but I came too late.

Perhaps if you send me (can be via PM) a detailed screenshot of Bohemia and its surroundings, I might be able to help you. OTOH it seems that similar ptoblem would also be in Germany - judging just from the surroundings of Bohemia.

PS: and sorry for typos in my posts. I'm mostry writing from a mobile phone.

Yeah send me screenshots, I'll get around to it. As far the capitals go, those are my focus at the moment. II spent a lot of time researching the capitals (not the extra holdings due to the obviously exorbitant amount of work that would require) for most of the Greco-Roman world, Africa, Iran, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan. I have been rushing through northern Europe (including Bohemia) so those regions may very well be off kilter a bit.

And you're not pestering me, I know people take their associated real-world regions (or regions of academic interest) very seriously. I love the eastern Mediterranean, Armenia and Iran very seriously. Others love other regions. All I ask is - If you want something updated, provide solid justification and screenshots.
 
Last edited:
Yeah send me screenshots, I'll get around to it. As far the capitals go, those are my focus at the moment. II spent a lot of time researching the capitals (not the extra holdings due to the obviously exorbitant amount of work that would require) for most of the Greco-Roman world, Africa, Iran, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan. I have been rushing through northern Europe (including Bohemia) so those regions may very well be off kilter a bit.

And you're not pestering me, I know people take their associated real-world regions (or regions of academic interest) very seriously. I love the eastern Mediterranean, Armenia and Iran very seriously. Others love other regions. All I ask is - If you want something updated, provide solid justification and screenshots.
Well, what kind of screenshots do you want?

As for Bohemia, you can check any even medieval map to see that borders of the country are mountains. Those "border mountains" are roughly visible on every physical map. The external borders of Bohemia and (to a lesser extent also Moravia) haven't changed map throughout time, and they are basicaly this:
Holy_Roman_Empire_11th_century_map-en.svg


You can also check this
t's my mapping project. Still in development with still some flaws, but could be more helpfull than my posts.
It is still in development and recently in the middle of face lift. Here is the current version of Cenrtal Europe:
gZHUy7B.jpg


Does this look any similar? to any of those? I don't think so.

I'm sorry I'm not providing many online maps/screenshots. I thought I could be more helpful, save you some work and draw the borders for you. But for that I would need more detailed screenshot of your map (with province names and borders visible), as well as some surroundings, or anything what would help me helping you.

I won't post online screenshots, because my map work is often based on text sources which I then transport to the map. That is the case of Sijilmasa, my another "pain" on your map.

If you check any reference to the city, you will read it was the northern terminus of the western Trans-Saharan route(s) which led to Awdaghost (via Adrar) and Ghana or Timbuktu and Mali (via Taghaza). It was the last place before the caravanas headed towards Taghaza or more western route to Awdaghost. Thus it would be logical if Sijilmasa had direct border with the provinces like Taghaza or Tindouf without having Tuat in between them (heading via Tuat was yet another, but much less frequent route).

I'm just sorry, I think I have asked for those screenshots several times too many and I think like I am attacking you any time I ask again. If it bothers you, please tell me that you are not interested in my help and I'll leave you alone ;)
I'm just sorry, I'm not gonna google maps for you.
 
I'm just sorry, I think I have asked for those screenshots several times too many and I think like I am attacking you any time I ask again. If it bothers you, please tell me that you are not interested in my help and I'll leave you alone ;)
I'm just sorry, I'm not gonna google maps for you.

Sorry, just have a lot going on, wasn't ignoring you - Here are the super zoomed-in screenshots you requested.

You can match them with what is in the current map, I haven't added anything. If you want to draw the provinces for me in in northern Europe, I would be cool with that. I can even send you my provinces file if you really want to contribute. You clearly have an interest in the area.

20170723173155_1.jpg
20170723173204_1.jpg
20170723173210_1.jpg
20170723173216_1.jpg
20170723173255_1.jpg
 
Sorry, just have a lot going on, wasn't ignoring you - Here are the super zoomed-in screenshots you requested.

You can match them with what is in the current map, I haven't added anything. If you want to draw the provinces for me in in northern Europe, I would be cool with that. I can even send you my provinces file if you really want to contribute. You clearly have an interest in the area.

View attachment 286965 View attachment 286966 View attachment 286967 View attachment 286968 View attachment 286969
Awesome! Thanks!!!!

More in PM, I think it's better way to deal these details if you don't mind
 
Can remove the county's that dont belong in the time frame of the game. The Makers of HIP have counties in there that were not county's until the mid 1800s. And some the districts they made county's your holdings are suppose to be the actual districts? This is map really good. Just as long as you leave out all the straights expect form Greece to Anatolia.