The Empire Strikes Back Megacampaign - HoI4 Planning

[Idhrendur]

This thread is for story-related planning of the HoI4 section of my megacampaign. If you’re interested, the Vic2 mod and final save can be found in this thread, and the HoI4 modding will be happening in this thread. If you somehow stumbled upon this without having read my AAR, it exists in these three threads.

Further posts will collect more details of this level of discussion. As this is in the AAR forum (so you don’t need HoI4 to participate), I got permission from Mr. Capiatlist for whatever level of interactivity this is.

Everything past this point is probably spoilers for however the AAR ends up going.

 

[Idhrendur]

Characters

As a bonus for those who participated in the Vic2 portion of this campaign, I am allowing them to create a character that will be placed in the HoI4 mod. This character does not need to be within the Empire, but could be. When the HoI4 section begins, presuming I get permission, they will be allowed to roleplay this character in addition to a normal senatorial character. This will not go to the point of directly affecting in-game events, but they can put their own spin on why things happened the way they did. I’m also willing to accept a broad definition of character. It might include country leaders, ministers, generals, or even companies. Not whole nations though.

This is the list of people who can create characters, and their descriptions of characters they have chose to create:

Andre Massena
Arakhor
Attalus
austrianemporer
BBBD316
Beaverman1
ByzantineSEA
CaterpillarKing
Cossack_of_Hetmanschina - Marco Shelepov, serving in the military
Damian0358
Figus
Fish-Of-Fury
GreatUberGeek
Michaelangelo - Italy's leader, the bastard son of King Giuseppe Lombard
NiccoTesla
oskar-kar - Poland's leader or a significant scientist
PrincepsAbsolut
righ na-Alba
Sakura_F
Sancronis
Sir Dippingsauce
strategymad3500
The Crows
Username1453
volksmarschall
zenphoenix - Theodora Doukas, Prime Minister of Rome

 

[Idhrendur]

So, let’s also discuss countries. I’ll want to update the national focuses for most nations, and I know that some of you have become invested in telling the stories of some nations. So I’d like to make sure all your ideas can be represented. We’ll probably not want to discuss the actual national focuses here, but establishing what nations might want, where they might go, etc, is a good idea.

I’m sure there will be many questions, and I’ll need to take some time to lay out my thoughts, but we need to start somewhere. So here are the nations at the end of the game, grouped in ways that make sense to me.

Protagonist
The Roman Empire

Foederati
South Africa
Congo
Namibia
Aoteorea
Angola
Gabon

The rebellious ones
Great Britain
Burgundy
Italy
Aquitaine
France
Brittany

Europe
Russia
Hungary
Germany
Scotland
Scandinavia
Poland-Lithuania
Norway
Castille

North America
The United Tribes of America
Kanata
Empire of Mexico
Haiti

South America
England
Biru
Argentina
Colombia

Asia
Ming
Japan
India
Iran
Hedjaz
Korea
Khiva
Baluchistan
Adal
Burma
Chagatai
Shan
Mutapa
Luang Prabang
Makassar
Pattani
Iraq
Manchu
Cambodia
Oman
Sukhothai
Siam
Tibet

Africa
Ethiopia
Sokoto
Benin

 

[zenphoenix]

Okay, here are some of my suggestions:

Russia - it should try to ally with the rebels. Once that is done it should start a war with the Empire. Maybe it should ally with other countries who stand to gain from the Empire's demise?

The Roman Empire - It naturally wants to destroy the rebels. Some factions might want to negotiate, while others would prefer just invading and reconquering them.

Ming - Conflict with India and Japan and eventually Russia and the Roman Empire. Attempts to gobble up the minors in Southeast Asia, Tibet, Manchuria, etc.

Scandinavia - reunification with Norway.

Poland-Lithuania - war with Germany for "revanchist" reasons, independent of the Russian-Roman war.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Well if you're taking character suggestions for the HOI4 part, I want my character to be whoever is leading Italy. Am I correct in believing that the nation is currently fascist?

If we're looking at national focuses, I would imagine Italy's would be based on reforging the Roman Empire, but based around Rome. They'd see our Empire as an imposter, far too Greek in origins. Likely they'd try to conquer the rest of Italy and bind themselves to the other rebel states.

 

[oskar-kar]

So, I haven't been the most active person in the later part of the Vicky part of the megacampaign (actually, I wasn't active at all) and I think the same will apply here in HoI4 (I just don't have the time to take active part in it, sorry), but I'm still honored to be permitted a character of my own.

I'm not sure how this whole character thing is going to work, but since I'm Polish I would gladly create some kind of political leader (or important scientist, if Poland-Lithuania would be a power responsible for a progress of weaponry during HoI4 period, which I highly doubt). The thing is, I know for sure that I won't roleplay it, so it would be only a person with a name and "background/description", but during AAR itself, it would only be mentioned in AAR updates, unless someone would want to roleplay it instead of me, which I would be totally okay with.

And now, one thing I want to ask/suggest about countries. The Roman Empire. Should it be protagonist or rather an antihero? I mean, it's great that the whole megacampaign focuses on Roman Empire, but the problem is, even after introducing a major crisis in form of a massive rebellion in Vicky 2, Roman Empire is still "a good guy". What if we would introduce somekind of crisis, political instability in Roman Empire, between some kind of conservative and moderate faction against some fascist/nationalist faction, which is driven by modern and radical ideas, which goal is to regain, in their eyes, "lost glory" of Roman Empire. Thanks to that, we could make The Roman Empire the antihero, the country which is the main point of the AAR, but is the main "bad guy" of the whole story as well and it would have to be stopped by some kind of coalition. What I have in mind is, let's put Roman Empire in the position or similar position of Germany in HoI4. We are all told that WW2 was the "fight between good and evil" (let's not discuss wheter we agree or not) but despite that, Germany is still the protagonist of vanilla HoI4, it has to be, because it was Germany that started the war and dictated for the most part the course of events.

What do you think? It's just a suggestion, though.

 

[Cossack_of_Hetmanschina]

My suggestion stays,that Roman Empire should not only retake rebel provinces,but also liberate it's ally,Ukraine.After all,Veronica was married to Ukrainian prince Yevhen,and Russia was an enemy of Romans for the most part.
Norway (I suggest) should focus on liberation of other Scandinavian sub-states;if Norway is right-wing\fascist in HOI4,it would fit to "anti-cosmopolitanism",which is typical to fascists and anti-globalists(while Scandinavia is not globalist,it's definitely cosmopolitan - as it's an alliance of different cultures in one state).
What do you all think?It's still just a suggestion.

 

[zenphoenix]

I know I've been hinting at this in my last few IC, but let me just say this. I'd like Theodora to become a symbolic Prime Minister at some point. She is a Doukai and distantly related to the Emperor. She has been effective in defeating the Cult. She commands the respect of the Senate (I think) and can speak for most of them. Konstantinos or his successor would think she would be a good person to represent the Senate as a whole. She doesn't have to be the national leader or have any real power other than her Ministry of Security powers.

Well if you're taking character suggestions for the HOI4 part, I want my character to be whoever is leading Italy. Am I correct in believing that the nation is currently fascist?

If we're looking at national focuses, I would imagine Italy's would be based on reforging the Roman Empire, but based around Rome. They'd see our Empire as an imposter, far too Greek in origins. Likely they'd try to conquer the rest of Italy and bind themselves to the other rebel states.

I saw Italy as being theocratic but still right-wing. It would probably not try to conquer the other rebels but maybe forming a coalition with them. This coalition should be opposed to both the Roman Empire and the rebels allied with Russia.

So, I haven't been the most active person in the later part of the Vicky part of the megacampaign (actually, I wasn't active at all) and I think the same will apply here in HoI4 (I just don't have the time to take active part in it, sorry), but I'm still honored to be permitted a character of my own.

I'm not sure how this whole character thing is going to work, but since I'm Polish I would gladly create some kind of political leader (or important scientist, if Poland-Lithuania would be a power responsible for a progress of weaponry during HoI4 period, which I highly doubt). The thing is, I know for sure that I won't roleplay it, so it would be only a person with a name and "background/description", but during AAR itself, it would only be mentioned in AAR updates, unless someone would want to roleplay it instead of me, which I would be totally okay with.

And now, one thing I want to ask/suggest about countries. The Roman Empire. Should it be protagonist or rather an antihero? I mean, it's great that the whole megacampaign focuses on Roman Empire, but the problem is, even after introducing a major crisis in form of a massive rebellion in Vicky 2, Roman Empire is still "a good guy". What if we would introduce somekind of crisis, political instability in Roman Empire, between some kind of conservative and moderate faction against some fascist/nationalist faction, which is driven by modern and radical ideas, which goal is to regain, in their eyes, "lost glory" of Roman Empire. Thanks to that, we could make The Roman Empire the antihero, the country which is the main point of the AAR, but is the main "bad guy" of the whole story as well and it would have to be stopped by some kind of coalition. What I have in mind is, let's put Roman Empire in the position or similar position of Germany in HoI4. We are all told that WW2 was the "fight between good and evil" (let's not discuss wheter we agree or not) but despite that, Germany is still the protagonist of vanilla HoI4, it has to be, because it was Germany that started the war and dictated for the most part the course of events.

What do you think? It's just a suggestion, though.

The PLC is fascist I think, so it makes sense that it would invest heavily in military technology.

As for the Empire, making it an antihero would spice things up a bit. We already have Konstantinos possibly going down a far-right nationalist path. Maybe instead of mirroring King Edward's abdication he could attempt a coup to purge the government of his opponents. Then the Russians could ally with the eastern rebels, Italy with the western rebels, and both factions could support factions within the Roman Empire in preparation for an invasion. The first year (1936) would be Konstantinos being crowned emperor and increasing his power, clashing with the Senate and bureaucracy. The second year (1937) could see the Russians and Italians making moves among the rebel factions and a deterioration of relations between Ming and India. The third year (1938) could be Konstantinos's coup against the Senate, which doesn't have to be violent but still cause instability. The fourth year (1939) has Konstantinos and most of his immediate family killed in an attack on Blachernae by unknown groups, causing a succession crisis which the Russians, Italians, and other rebels use as an opportunity to invade.

 

[Damian0358]

Being the effective representative of Aoteorea, I guess I should be pitching my opinions for the island(s) state. If there is one thing I'm certain about, it is that it would continue its current trajectory of being an example of Romanitas, though with a threat of right-wing politics reemerging, perhaps thanks to Konstantinos' indirect influence. However, there is something I'm uncertain about: the Thaddai estate.

As those who played or followed, my current "senator", Nestorius Thaddas, is currently 86 by the end of the thread, with his only son Timon being... was it 22 or 24? [Would have to be the latter if he was born in December 1911, no?] Alongside this, the Exarchess of Aoteorea, Kyrene Thaddas, is only a few years younger than Nestor and is Timon's mother. At some point, one or even both will have to pass away at some point. I'm not exactly sure how to proceed from a narrative standpoint, since the passing of one or the other will affect their respective districts, that being the senatorial seat and the position of Exarch.

I haven't even begun to consider what to do with those working at the Aoteorean Representative HQ. I hinted at them getting their own separate building near the Thaddai estate in Constantinople, but beyond that, I'm still trying to think of what to do with them.

 

[Cossack_of_Hetmanschina]

How do you think,foederati must be converted as dominions or colonies?

 

[zenphoenix]

How do you think,foederati must be converted as dominions or colonies?

Neither. They are just vassals.

 

[Michaelangelo]

I saw Italy as being theocratic but still right-wing. It would probably not try to conquer the other rebels but maybe forming a coalition with them. This coalition should be opposed to both the Roman Empire and the rebels allied with Russia.

In one of the updates, there was a newspaper article or something that states Italy succumbed to a fascist revolution, implying the Pope's rule has been overthrown. I imagine these Italian fascists would be very similar to historical ones and try to restore the Roman Empire, especially with ours being very Greek-centred.

 

[zenphoenix]

In one of the updates, there was a newspaper article or something that states Italy succumbed to a fascist revolution, implying the Pope's rule has been overthrown. I imagine these Italian fascists would be very similar to historical ones and try to restore the Roman Empire, especially with ours being very Greek-centred.

Well, we can always see it as the Pope letting the revolution happen and thus being put into a ceremonial role. But then you're right, the fascists are in charge of Italy. In that case they could try to go on their own expansion and get some focuses increasing the strength of their military (don't know how to mod this), making them another challenge for the Empire.

 

[Idhrendur]

Thank you all for your comments! Sorry for taking a few days to reply, life is as busy as ever. If you check the second post, I've started recording what's been said about characters so far.

I should probably share my thoughts on the Empire. As I see it, there's three main goals for the HoI4 segment:

1. There's a major democratic movement destabilizing things. I suppressed it via event in the last couple updates because I found it boring, but the game converts with 54% democratic support, which should push towards a civil war early on. What's more, there's plans for the converter to add Chinese civil war type national spirits for sufficiently strong Vic2 rebel movements. I'm not entirely sure what that'll look like (I have a weak grasp of the HoI4 mechanic at the moment), but that should be yet more internal chaos to deal with. And on top of that, I'm thinking of adding a national focus that weakens the political power gain early on, representing Konstantinos' angering the Senate. I might even toss in a great depression type one, too, as the Empire converts with an absurd amount of factories. I would imagine solutions to this end with a Prime Minister position arising in the Senate, possibly with the Senate gaining far more formal control over internal affairs of the Empire.
2. Absorb the rebel states. Konstantinos would do it by conquest. I'm not sure what Alvértos would do, but putting in a possible diplomatic branch is good, even if I never use it in the AAR.
3. Unite the world. I want to give a good setup for Stellaris. I'm imagining something akin to the UN, with the Emperor replacing the Security Council, but with almost no power initially. I can then write an epilogue about how the Emperors gain more power over time. I'd also like to slip in some decolonization to that part of the story, and some aggressive border redrawing to match ethnic boundaries. I had a hard time justifying how this might come about, but playing the Empire as the baddies in this scenario would work remarkably well.

So, then there's the rebel states. Here's some data about them:

Country            Vic2 Government                    Vic2 ruling ideology    HoI4 ideology
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Italy              Democracy                          Liberal                 Democratic
Burgundy           Prussian Constitutionalism         Liberal                 Democratic
Aquitaine          Prussian Constitutionalism         Conservative            Absolutist
France             Bourgeois Dictatorship             Anarcho-Liberal         Non-aligned (bug, should be Radical)
Brittany           Proletarian Dictatorship           Communist               Non-aligned (bug, should be Communist)
Great Britain      Democracy                          Liberal                 Democratic

I had remembered that Italy had gone into a rebellion spiral but had forgotten how it landed. I hadn't even noticed Burgundy. My original plan was that Burgundy and Italy would collectively try to conquer the other rebel states and declare themselves the HRE. With the Pope, it all made sense. But maybe that can still work with them forming a a Roman Republic faction, making their war, then potentially forming a new united nation (or rather, clever work with HoI4 mechanics to make it look like they did). With the Empire's internal struggles, maybe they'd even declare war on the Empire!

Beyond that, France and Brittany are clearly going to be in opposition to one another. And I've never been clear myself about what Aquitaine's role in anything is. Just trying to hold on to power?

I have plenty of thoughts about the rest of Europe, but that'll be the topic of a future post. I'm guessing I've said enough to spark some conversation in the meanwhile.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Ah, so Italy did not go fascist. I still have ideas for that. I think it is still doable to use your idea of Italy and Burgundy forming the HRE, but that could be one option of several. I want my character to be the bastard son of King Giuseppe Lombardi, and I'm fine with him starting out as the elected leader of a republic. We could have two branches representing how his rule proceeds. He could keep the republic alive and rely on revolutionary fervour to bring down the more absolutist states like with Revolutionary France, or he could do as the Caesars did and reform Italy into an empire under his rule. For the former, there could be options to fund democratic movements in other countries or the Empire in the hopes of stirring up revolutions. For the latter, he could cement his rule by gaining the Pope's blessing, setting the way for an Italy-Burgundy alliance and possible formation of the HRE.

 

[zenphoenix]

There's a major democratic movement destabilizing things. I suppressed it via event in the last couple updates because I found it boring, but the game converts with 54% democratic support, which should push towards a civil war early on. What's more, there's plans for the converter to add Chinese civil war type national spirits for sufficiently strong Vic2 rebel movements. I'm not entirely sure what that'll look like (I have a weak grasp of the HoI4 mechanic at the moment), but that should be yet more internal chaos to deal with. And on top of that, I'm thinking of adding a national focus that weakens the political power gain early on, representing Konstantinos' angering the Senate. I might even toss in a great depression type one, too, as the Empire converts with an absurd amount of factories. I would imagine solutions to this end with a Prime Minister position arising in the Senate, possibly with the Senate gaining far more formal control over internal affairs of the Empire.

Can I recommend a path to negotiate with the democratic movement? There should be a route to avoid a civil war, if possible. I think Alvertos should be in support of the democrats and Konstantinos in support of a radical nationalist movement. Supporting either side too much should cause the other to rebel. Maybe we can throw in two more factions advocating for democratic and communist republics?

I haven't taken a look at the converter (or HOI4 that much for that matter), but Chinese civil war type national spirits probably entail that the Empire would be split into different countries representing factions in the war. Each faction would not start at war, but there would be focuses leading to war/negotiated unification.

Absorb the rebel states. Konstantinos would do it by conquest. I'm not sure what Alvértos would do, but putting in a possible diplomatic branch is good, even if I never use it in the AAR.

Good idea. I would suggest allowing the rebels to approach the Empire first, whether to negotiate or to attack, or to attack/negotiate with each other. Perhaps foreign powers could support different rebels against each other/the Empire. Russia and Italy come to mind.

Unite the world. I want to give a good setup for Stellaris. I'm imagining something akin to the UN, with the Emperor replacing the Security Council, but with almost no power initially. I can then write an epilogue about how the Emperors gain more power over time. I'd also like to slip in some decolonization to that part of the story, and some aggressive border redrawing to match ethnic boundaries. I had a hard time justifying how this might come about, but playing the Empire as the baddies in this scenario would work remarkably well.

This is just my opinion, but I would prefer that the Empire not expand beyond its current maximum extent (I think that was reached in 1914?), as realistically the Empire would have a hard time suppressing nationalist movements across the entire world. I recommend something like an "Earth Confederation," where the heads of state of the world sit on something like the United Nations Security Council to work out their differences. The "leader" of this council would be the Stellaris leader. You'd then have an elective monarchy, which can be represented as a regular Stellaris monarchical government type (aren't monarch dynasties randomly chosen from a name list already?).

 

[zenphoenix]

Beyond that, France and Brittany are clearly going to be in opposition to one another. And I've never been clear myself about what Aquitaine's role in anything is. Just trying to hold on to power?

Aquitaine, France, and Brittany should try to destroy each other and unite into a "Gallic Republic/Union/Empire," which can form its own faction and try to reunite the Empire. It would provide a rival to Italy's ambitions.

 

[Cossack_of_Hetmanschina]

England(that in Brazil)should play Kaiserreich's Canada and try to conquer Great Britain before Romans will do it.Also,it would create plot for Cold War.

 

[zenphoenix]

England(that in Brazil)should play Kaiserreich's Canada and try to conquer Great Britain before Romans will do it.Also,it would create plot for Cold War.

England is in no position to do that. If anything it should try to conquer South America.

 

[Idhrendur]

Ah, so Italy did not go fascist. I still have ideas for that. I think it is still doable to use your idea of Italy and Burgundy forming the HRE, but that could be one option of several. I want my character to be the bastard son of King Giuseppe Lombardi, and I'm fine with him starting out as the elected leader of a republic. We could have two branches representing how his rule proceeds. He could keep the republic alive and rely on revolutionary fervour to bring down the more absolutist states like with Revolutionary France, or he could do as the Caesars did and reform Italy into an empire under his rule. For the former, there could be options to fund democratic movements in other countries or the Empire in the hopes of stirring up revolutions. For the latter, he could cement his rule by gaining the Pope's blessing, setting the way for an Italy-Burgundy alliance and possible formation of the HRE.

I like those ideas.