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CK2 Dev Diary #62: News from China

Greetings!

Last week I talked about how we’re adding China to the world of Crusader Kings II without actually extending the map any farther. When you are playing in the Orient, you would be wise to remember the “Divine Land” to the east. Indeed, from time to time, you will be getting tidings about the situation in China so that you can plan accordingly. China has a Status and a Policy. The latter rarely changes except when a new emperor ascends to the Dragon Throne (or when the Western Governorate either wins or loses a major war.) By far the most common Policy is “Open”, which means it’s business as usual; China is open to trade and the Silk Road is active. Moreover, the emperor is interested in maintaining the tributary system and in conducting diplomacy with the barbarian periphery. However, some Chinese administrations favor a “Closed” Policy. At such times, the Silk Road will be shut down and the emperor will not deal with foreign rulers. Neither will China attempt any form of military adventures beyond its borders. Lastly, and most rarely, China may adopt an “Expansionist” Policy. This is a time of great peril for rulers near the Chinese border, who would be well advised to swallow their pride and kowtow to the emperor, accepting tributary status before the Western Governorate is expanded with extreme force...

DDJurchens.png


Chinese Policy should be seen as a political stance, but China also has a “Status”, which is beyond the emperor’s control. For example, China can be struck by famine, plague, unrest, Civil Wars and invasions by Mongols and Jurchens, and it can also sometimes experience a “Golden Age”. All of these states have an impact on China’s behavior and on the Silk Road. For example, if China suffers from famine, income from the Silk Road is drastically lowered, and players should watch out for the conclusion to a Chinese Civil War or Altaic invasion; it is not unheard of for a displaced dynasty or losing faction to seek refuge in the West… More on that in a later dev diary. I believe that will do it for today. Next week we’ll go into details about how you interact with China and what’s in it for you!
 
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rageair said:
The Silk Road will be unlocked by JD as well.
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Let the speculation commence! :D
Jade Dragons? Jelectric Doogaloo? John Dorian?
 
How will the new silk road rules affect modders who sometimes use the silk road mechanic to emulate important non-Chinese trade routes? For example, one time I modded a small trade route from Timbuktu to Marrakech. In the upcoming DLC, will all trade routes shut down when China closes-up, even if the trade routes aren't connected to the Chinese ones?
 
rageair said:
You will not be able to play as the Western protectorate - it acts similarly to the Papal title, it's used for tracking what China does and is unsuitable for play. You are free to play as vassals under it though, and there's also going to be other Chinese-cultured characters you can play throughout the ages (Plenty in the Tarim Basin in 769, and several under the Mongols in later start dates - for example). :)
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dangit! I guess it's nice that we can play vassals or other Chinese characters but I was really hoping it would be a fun, different kind of gameplay. I guess that means whatever its unique government type with the teal ribbons is also unplayable? :(

Thanks for letting us know, though!
 
rageair said:
You will not be able to play as the Western protectorate - it acts similarly to the Papal title, it's used for tracking what China does and is unsuitable for play. You are free to play as vassals under it though, and there's also going to be other Chinese-cultured characters you can play throughout the ages (Plenty in the Tarim Basin in 769, and several under the Mongols in later start dates - for example). :)
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That's quite disappointing. Is it too late to change this? Playing as the Protectorate and receiving directives from the Emperor would be tons of fun.
 
CatilinamSum said:
That's quite disappointing. Is it too late to change this? Playing as the Protectorate and receiving directives from the Emperor would be tons of fun.
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CK2 is about helping a dynasty survive from the chosen start date to the end date. The western protectorate isn't a good fit as a playable tag in CK2 because the leader of the protectorate is a military general appointed by the imperial court. It's not something that passes from one family member to another and it goes against the main theme of the game. It's not even something you could get around with special mechanics, like they did with merchant republics. The next General isn't appointed from the ranks of minor lords in the Tarim basin. It's appointed by the emperor, who is off screen, and he deliberately appoints people who come from outside of that region in order to ensure that the general is a loyalist who has no stake in a local rebellion. One of the protectors was even a Korean. The more you examine the history of the institution, the more impractical it seems to make it playable in CK2.

I think leaving it unplayable, like the Papacy, was the right decision.
 
Jia Xu said:
CK2 is about helping a dynasty survive from the chosen start date to the end date. The western protectorate isn't a good fit as a playable tag in CK2 because the leader of the protectorate is a military general appointed by the imperial court. It's not something that passes from one family member to another and it goes against the main theme of the game. It's not even something you could get around with special mechanics, like they did with merchant republics. The next General isn't appointed from the ranks of minor lords in the Tarim basin. It's appointed by the emperor, who is off screen, and he deliberately appoints people who come from outside of that region in order to ensure that the general is a loyalist who has no stake in a local rebellion. One of the protectors was even a Korean. The more you examine the history of the institution, the more impractical it seems to make it playable in CK2.

I think leaving it unplayable, like the Papacy, was the right decision.
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You're probably right when it comes to the history, but as a game mechanic, it's still a bit frustrating.

According to this DD and the last, the Western Protectorate can potentially grow very powerful. It isn't fun to see a massive blob on the map that you have no chance at ever playing. While the Papacy remains small and distant, the Protectorate will be actively declaring wars on and exacting tribute from its neighbors.

It's nice that some Chinese characters will make it into the game (I can finally play my ancestors!). However, it's sad that I can't really play a rebellious jiedushi, and try to found my own mock dynasty in the west.
 
CatilinamSum said:
You're probably right when it comes to the history, but as a game mechanic, it's still a bit frustrating.

According to this DD and the last, the Western Protectorate can potentially grow very powerful. It isn't fun to see a massive blob on the map that you have no chance at ever playing. While the Papacy remains small and distant, the Protectorate will be actively declaring wars on and exacting tribute from its neighbors.

It's nice that some Chinese characters will make it into the game (I can finally play my ancestors!). However, it's sad that I can't really play a rebellious jiedushi, and try to found my own mock dynasty in the west.
Click to expand...

This actually makes the Chinese presence even worse than death stacks because at least you got to play as the Mongols.
 
Jia Xu said:
How will the new silk road rules affect modders who sometimes use the silk road mechanic to emulate important non-Chinese trade routes? For example, one time I modded a small trade route from Timbuktu to Marrakech. In the upcoming DLC, will all trade routes shut down when China closes-up, even if the trade routes aren't connected to the Chinese ones?
Click to expand...
Only the silk road will be affected - any additional trade routes modders add will be unaffected. The system is highly moddable and fully accessible through script.
 
I saw this screenshot in the previous thread:
View attachment 290299
And I want to say that the situation presented is not historical. Tang garrison was still present in the entire Tarim Basin as late as the 780s. Tibetan advances by 769 were limited to the off-map Hexi Corridor, which severed the connection between Tang proper and its western territories. Tang didn't managed to reestablish the connection and what's left of the protectorate was functionally independent for the rest of its existence.

To quote myself in an earlier dev diary:
SchwarzKatze said:
A bit more on this:


A Chinese monk Wukong recorded the local kings and Chinese commanders in the Taklamakan on his way home, and here's the excerpt of the section from entering Tang-controlled territory to taking a detour in Uyghur lands (due to Tibetan occupation of Gansu). I was able to find two copies of the text which helped me spot scribal errors and typos.

http://nigioikhatsi.net/han/16-shizhuan/51/2089/2089-2.htm


https://suttacentral.net/lzh/t780a


Here are the cities and names mentioned, the local kings' name are sinicized though. All four kings mentioned were found in the seat of the Four Garrisons of Anxi.

Kashgar(疏勒): King Pei Lengleng, Commander Lu Yang

Khotan(于闐): King Yuchi Yao*, Commander Zheng Ju

Bharuka(威戎城): Commander Su Cen

???**(據瑟得 Mandarin: Ju se de/Middle Chinese: Kyo she tək): Commander Jia Quan

Kucha(龜茲): Jiedushi Guo Xin of Anxi (安西), King Bai Huan

Arsi(烏耆): King Long Rulin, Commander Yang Riyou

Beshbalik(庭州): Jiedushi Yang Xigu of Beiting (北庭)

*Yuchi Yao is Sata II Vijaya ingame. His brother Yuchi Sheng (Dhondhros Vijaya ingame) went to Changan to fought the An Lushan rebellion and stayed there afterwards.

**I couldn't find any other reference to this city on the Internet, and the title of the local commander (城使) is different from everyone else's (鎮守使)

The date of his departure from Beshbalik, the only definite date in the passage, is 6 October, 789 in Julian calendar, according to this converter:
http://sinocal.sinica.edu.tw/


So the information was 20 years later than the start date, but still better than nothing, I guess?
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I really hope china doesn't go and conquer all of India also will we as players be able to support a empire as a outside force if one of the old empires goes to our court. Though money and recourses as they are not on the map of course
 
SchwarzKatze said:
I saw this screenshot in the previous thread:
View attachment 290299
And I want to say that the situation presented is not historical. Tang garrison was still present in the entire Tarim Basin as late as the 780s. Tibetan advances by 769 were limited to the off-map Hexi Corridor, which severed the connection between Tang proper and its western territories. Tang didn't managed to reestablish the connection and what's left of the protectorate was functionally independent for the rest of its existence.

To quote myself in an earlier dev diary:
Click to expand...

I think these are the Chinese characters that we will be able to play and won't be part of the Western Protectorate. I'm guessing they'll be independent feudal lords rather than a part of the Chinese protectorate system. It sort of makes sense since they were all but autonomous at this point without much contact from China.
 
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