CK2 Dev Diary #62: News from China

[Thure]

Well, congrats? Now we're getting an expansion where we don't get to play in China, don't get to play as the Western Protectorate, and don't get any substantial features for existing areas of the map. Everybody wins.

You must be so proud of yourself.

We don't know all features. And Tibet seems to have a anew government form.

 

[SurrealGoblin]

Ya'll realize that something like 150,000 people play CKII regularly and like 1.5 million own the game right?

There is absolutely no reason to believe that most players are strongly pro or anti china. Considering forum posters here or on reddit or whatever as representative of CKII players would be really bad statistics.

I personally am really excited about this expansion because I don't think the mechanics that form the core of CKII could simulate the population and power of China in the time period in an enjoyable fashion, but I also think that the game needs to represent China's presence in some way.

There is no reason that anyone should agree with me or avoid expressing their displeasure, and there is no reason to think that the vast majority of players who will never post here agree with me. This whole "No one is pleased because 25 people argue about it on the internet thing" is annoying though.

I lurk here because ya'll are consistently really clever and have interesting and well thought out things to say that make me think, whether I agree with you or not. Can you please keep explaining why you personally aren't excited about the expansion without pretending that you speak for a majority?

 

[klopkr]

Try again, by all accounts the anti-China faction is feeling a sense of relief. We've (or at least I have, and I gather this from other posters as well) long since given up on Crusades or other existing features getting attention, and learning that Asia (with all its performance ruining horrors and Indiaesque uninventive mechanics) isn't happening was a boon if nothing else.

Idk i've been seeing a lot of complaints about tibet, these new mechanics, etc.

Imagine if this was the last dlc and they had added all of china. Going back a patch wouldn't lose you anything and both sides could be happy. It'd be a big and worthy final dlc too. Even the people that want ck3 already would be happy.

Instead i'm just stuck wondering who this dlc is for. I'm sure the pro china side will buy it... but they wont like it. And the anti-china side might buy it but most don't really care for the region in the first place.

I'm just not convinced this was the best solution. A completly different dlc would have probably been a wiser investment even though the debate would rage on.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Haven't they taken Karashar in 763

The latter part is true, but where did you get this? The monk Wukong whom I quoted traveled through the city and recorded the names of the tributary king and the local Chinese commander just before arriving in Beshbalik in 789.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...of-of-the-world.1021920/page-15#post-22845162

 

[Damarrocarion]

The latter part is true, but where did you get this?

It was on Wikipedia page. For the life of me I cannot remember which book I read the same thing and how western Tarim Basin lost contact with China for being severed in not in just Hexi corridor but in central Tarim Basin too, even if Chinese deputy governors were reported in places like Kashgar for few years afterwards.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

It was on Wikipedia page. For the life of me I cannot remember which book I read the same thing and how western Tarim Basin lost contact with China for being severed in not in just Hexi corridor but in central Tarim Basin too, even if Chinese deputy governors were reported in places like Kashgar for few years afterwards.

Oh, the wiki editor typed "Karasahr", no wonder why it didn't show up on Google.

And that's the same monk on the same trip we're talking about

 

[vukica]

XP in Windows XP means 'experience'. It means something.

Hm... I stand corrected. That's just a stupid name.

And why would they give a DLC a random initials without meaniong? "Buy our new DLC called 'JD'!"

Why would they do anything like this at all is a better question. Might as well call it Steve.

 

[Damarrocarion]

And that's the same monk on the same trip we're talking about

Back then people traveled for bloody good reasons such as delivering books half-way across the continent, even if it took 20 odd years

 

[liredarion]

Idk i've been seeing a lot of complaints about tibet, these new mechanics, etc.

Imagine if this was the last dlc and they had added all of china. Going back a patch wouldn't lose you anything and both sides could be happy. It'd be a big and worthy final dlc too. Even the people that want ck3 already would be happy.

Instead i'm just stuck wondering who this dlc is for. I'm sure the pro china side will buy it... but they wont like it. And the anti-china side might buy it but most don't really care for the region in the first place.

I'm just not convinced this was the best solution. A completly different dlc would have probably been a wiser investment even though the debate would rage on.

I agree . Maybe not adding China is just a business strategy? By adding China, in ck3 they would have an important new feature compared to ck2. And as some are already close to postponing certain features on a game that will only see the light of day in a dozen years (you only have to see the number of people who minimize the absence of China on the map Saying "it's okay it will be in ck3"), so we can say that their strategy has some success.
In my opinion, many people here are in "fan" mode with paradox, constantly finding that their work is positive and challenging any criticism. The problem is that they forget that paradox is a business not an artistic initiative. Their goal is above all to earn money and when customers are not satisfied by the products , it is necessary to complain, as it is legitimate to congratulate the developers when they do a good job . And there (for now , with those 2 dev diary about china ), I fear that we end up with an expensive, and not necessarily interesting expansion ( i hope their will be other features ) . You are right to say that for a last dlc they could have extended the map, that would have allowed everyone to be satisfied. Those who do not want an expansion of the map could have returned to the previous patch or simply do not buy the dlc .

 

[Foreign Alien]

You are right to say that for a last dlc they could have extended the map, that would have allowed everyone to be satisfied.

This was originally supposed to be the last "big" expansion, remember all the way back to the road ahead dev diary? Now it's just classic Johan "we keep making DLCs as long as they keep selling."

 

[elvain]

Oh, the wiki editor typed "Karasahr", no wonder why it didn't show up on Google.

And that's the same monk on the same trip we're talking about

Yup, Karashahr (you had the last H missing) is one of the strangest (and beautiful) names I have came across in Central Asia. Since people often tend to misspel it, I never know if I have it written well too I always think I have either the "sh" or the last -"ahr" wrong or switched somehow

Why would they do anything like this at all is a better question. Might as well call it Steve.

But would 'Steve' raise that many questions?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Back then people traveled for bloody good reasons such as delivering books half-way across the continent, even if it took 20 odd years

Now we have a primary source (Monk Wukong) whose writings support that Karashar was held by Tang when he was there sometime between 786 and 789, but it seems that An Historical Atlas of Central Asia states that the city had been conquered by Tibet in 763. Unfortunately, the book isn't available in digital format for me to read.

 

[Foreign Alien]

Now we have a primary source (Monk Wukong) whose writings support that Karashar was held by Tang when he was there sometime between 786 and 789, but it seems that An Historical Atlas of Central Asia states that the city had been conquered by Tibet in 763. Unfortunately, the book isn't available in digital format for me to read.

It doesn't help much anyways. Central Asian places have like 10 different names each and you can't make heads or tails of anything because each author uses a different romanisation scheme. Tibetan histories are the worst.

 

[TheDungen]

Try again, by all accounts the anti-China faction is feeling a sense of relief. We've (or at least I have, and I gather this from other posters as well) long since given up on Crusades or other existing features getting attention, and learning that Asia (with all its performance ruining horrors and Indiaesque uninventive mechanics) isn't happening was a boon if nothing else.

I would consider myself anti china but, I'm not relieved. They did give the last big attention to china, and decided to make a half assed job of it. Exactly why I was against china to begin with because I figured the game was to far in it's development cycle for them to do a good job of it. And lo and behold I was 100% correct.

Idk i've been seeing a lot of complaints about tibet, these new mechanics, etc.

Imagine if this was the last dlc and they had added all of china. Going back a patch wouldn't lose you anything and both sides could be happy. It'd be a big and worthy final dlc too. Even the people that want ck3 already would be happy.

Instead i'm just stuck wondering who this dlc is for. I'm sure the pro china side will buy it... but they wont like it. And the anti-china side might buy it but most don't really care for the region in the first place.

I'm just not convinced this was the best solution. A completly different dlc would have probably been a wiser investment even though the debate would rage on.

Well not quite if you leave the game in a half finished state then you hurt sales to everyone who doesn't know they can roll back patches. Which I'm guessing is like 9/10 players.

This was originally supposed to be the last "big" expansion, remember all the way back to the road ahead dev diary? Now it's just classic Johan "we keep making DLCs as long as they keep selling."

Wait what they returned to the "we keep making DLCs as long as they keep selling." statement? Oh for the love of... Ck2 can't handle an eternal development cycle. Yes it is standing up to it better than eu4 is but eventually you'll start sensing the mechanics bloat in ck2 too. To some extent you already do.

 

[Foreign Alien]

You know, I think what would be fun is not to have a playable China, but still have the China mini map expand to the left when you click the dragon icon, and it gives a color coded political map of the China region and how it evolves. So you can see what's happening in a less abstracted way, even though you still won't get to play in China.

 

[liredarion]

You know, I think what would be fun is not to have a playable China, but still have the China mini map expand to the left when you click the dragon icon, and it gives a color coded political map of the China region and how it evolves. So you can see what's happening in a less abstracted way, even though you still won't get to play in China.

I think it would be a good idea, at least to better grasp the political context of China once the game started.

 

[Aerkhanite]

It doesn't help much anyways. Central Asian places have like 10 different names each and you can't make heads or tails of anything because each author uses a different romanisation scheme. Tibetan histories are the worst.

Doesn't help it a word can be written as "Walalalalala" but spoken as "Fooblieflop".

 

[Foreign Alien]

A simple color coded political map like this would be awesome:

 

[Shaquille1997]

Is it possible to marry for example the daughter of the emperor?

 

[Caspian Mortis]

Is it possible to marry for example the daughter of the emperor?

Possibly. For example the Tibetan Emperor Songtsen Gampo invaded the Tang Dynasty, but the Chinese Emperor defeated his army. However as a sign of goodwill he offered one his family members, Princess Wencheng to Gampo as a bride. Unfortunately the Tibetans would continue to invade and pillage China many more. It culiminated in the ultimate defeat for Tang China in 763, when the capital Chang'an was captured by the Tibetans during the An Lushan Rebellion.