CK2 Dev Diary #62: News from China

[VoodooEconomist]

A simple color coded political map like this would be awesome:

Looks cool, what game is that from?

 

[liredarion]

Looks cool, what game is that from?

I think that it is " romance of the three kingdoms XIII"

 

[13arabba]

Would a playable Western Governate work like the Night's Watch from the AGOT mod?

 

[Masoud22volk]

that sounds cool

 

[mork77]

A simple color coded political map like this would be awesome:

what game is this? romance of the Three kingdoms?

 

[Sunspawn]

So does this mean that cultures like Jurchen might appear in the game with an alternate history twist, even though they aren't on the map proper?

I imagine it will now be possible for the 769/867 starts to get Khitan invasions, too.

Will the old Mongol horde event (Temujin) simply fall under this system as a very special, very large invasion?

Manchu Prussia in converter game.

 

[Marinaliteyears]

Unlikely. The Inca realm was only relevant outside the surroundings of Cuzco and encompassing large areas of South America by the mid XV century, later than the last start date. Maybe the Chimu or Wari fit the time frame better.
It would be as anachronistic as the usage of "Aztec" is for the current DLC.

However, The In-game flavor text in the Aztec invasion already makes mention of the Inca who have apparently developed guns, and are only being pushed by by the Aztec importing Horses from europe. Unless Im getting groups mixed up, really.

 

[Bittersweet-V]

I do hope the Confucian religion gets introduced alongside perchance few Oriental mercenary groups, adventurers or similarly visitors. I truly wish for religious cliques to become playable, like the Papacy. That'd be so neat!

 

[13arabba]

I truly wish for religious cliques to become playable, like the Papacy. That'd be so neat!

Yeah, they should really get to work on the Papacy and Theocracies becoming playable instead of limiting future expansions with their precedent.

 

[mrstevehazzard]

This is just a small thing, but shouldn't it be, for instance, "Great Tang" instead of "Tang Empire"?

 

[ericyuen]

This is just a small thing, but shouldn't it be, for instance, "Great Tang" instead of "Tang Empire"?

No. Before Yuan Dynasty, the is no "Great" in the official name of the Chinese Empire.

Tang -> Liang -> Tang -> Chin -> Liao -> Han -> Chou -> Sung -> Dai Ön Yeke Mongghul Ulus -> Tai Ming -> Daicing Gurun

 

[ericyuen]

In the time period of Crusader Kings II, political changes in the eastern edge of the map are relatively complicated.

However, the Western Protectorate (An-hsi Protectorate and Pei-ting Protectorate) lost contact with the imperial court of Tang China BEFORE 769, and later annexed by Tibet in around 790.

In 848, Chang Yi-chao start a revolt in Dunhuang and finally "recover" the land occupied by Tibet in the 8th century. He pay homage to Tang and the area he controlled nominally become part of Tang China and granted "Kui-Yi Army". It's still independence in almost all aspects. Even though Tang was replaced by Liang in 907, Kui-Yi Army still exist until 1035.

So, how do you present the situations in game?

 

[Damarrocarion]

In 848, Chang Yi-chao start a revolt in Dunhuang and finally "recover" the land occupied by Tibet in the 8th century. He pay homage to Tang and the area he controlled nominally become part of Tang China and granted "Kui-Yi Army". It's still independence in almost all aspects. Even though Tang was replaced by Liang in 907, Kui-Yi Army still exist until 1035.

So, how do you present the situations in game?

Based on screenshot, it appears China can have tributaries so that seems to work. How would you do it yourself? Currently in ToG that area is held by Yughur duchy which I assume represents the kingdom that was established sometime after ToG start date.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

It was on Wikipedia page. For the life of me I cannot remember which book I read the same thing and how western Tarim Basin lost contact with China for being severed in not in just Hexi corridor but in central Tarim Basin too, even if Chinese deputy governors were reported in places like Kashgar for few years afterwards.

Now we have a primary source (Monk Wukong) whose writings support that Karashar was held by Tang when he was there sometime between 786 and 789, but it seems that An Historical Atlas of Central Asia states that the city had been conquered by Tibet in 763. Unfortunately, the book isn't available in digital format for me to read.

I went to a library and photographed the relevant pages:

Well that's... extremely annoying. Bregal's map and Wukong's account almost irreconcilably contradict each other. Not just the year of Tibetan occupation of Karashahr, but the Uyghur occupation not mentioned in the wiki as well. Wukong mentioned that when he's leaving Beiting (Beshbalik) in 789, because the way through 沙河 (the desert between Hami and Anxi the city according to my Google-fu) was blocked, his group had to take a detour through Uyghur lands, and he had to leave the Sanskrit scriptures behind because the Khagan didn't believe in Buddha. This directly contradicts with Bregal's version of the extent of Uyghur control.

The text next to the map mentions the expansion of Uyghur power but not the supposed conquest of Karashahr in 763.

Spoiler: The accompanying text

...and that the map is not based on any existing map.

Spoiler: Source

The part of Wukong's account mentioned:
http://nigioikhatsi.net/han/16-shizhuan/51/2089/2089-2.htm

时逢圣朝四镇北庭宣慰使中使段明秀来至北庭。洎贞元五年己巳之岁九月十三日。与本道奏事官节度押衙牛昕。安西道奏事官程锷等。随使入朝。当为沙河不通取回鹘路。又为单于不信佛法。所赍梵夹不敢持来。留在北庭龙兴寺藏所译汉本随使入都。

 

[Damarrocarion]

So can we conclude the following from all this: Records are conflicting and getting 100% accuracy will be hard if not impossible. Despite best efforts of Paradox, some people will end up disappointed.

So for example, based on that map, Ughyr realm would need to be pushed southward to where Tibet/Western Protectorate is in Dev Diary 61 map for example?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

So for example, based on that map, Ughyr realm would need to be pushed southward to where Tibet/Western Protectorate is in Dev Diary 61 map for example?

Yup. While Wukong implied that Uyghur rule only existed beyond Beshbaliq which is the complete opposite.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

How I feel right now:

I've consulted the digital versions of An Historical Atlas of Central Asia and The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia, the only referenced work that's somewhat relevant to the late 8th century Q/Karashahr. There's absolutely nothing on when the city fell to the Tibetans besides the arrow on that one map.

WTF I hate bibliography now.

 

[Thure]

How I feel right now:

I've consulted the digital versions of An Historical Atlas of Central Asia and The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia, the only referenced work that's somewhat relevant to the late 8th century Q/Karashahr. There's absolutely nothing on when the city fell to the Tibetans besides the arrow on that one map.

WTF I hate bibliography now.

You know how I feel... I work with a lot of Historical Atlases and that's often my feeling...

 

[Foreign Alien]

The wiki does cite a primary source mentioning that Guo Xin and Yuanzhong were assisted by Shatuo Turks and Uyghurs, so that might be what they were talking about with the Uyghur occupation.

Also not sure why you had to go to the library just to get the book when you can download it from genesis library which is much faster and probably better quality as well. I wouldn't trust Bregel tbh since his atlas doesn't focus specifically on the Xinjiang/Tibetan region and has to work with a multitude of sources.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

The wiki does cite a primary source mentioning that Guo Xin and Yuanzhong were assisted by Shatuo Turks and Uyghurs, so that might be what they were talking about with the Uyghur occupation.

Hosting allies' army isn't quite the same as being occupied though.
And the Cambridge History of Central Asia apparently shares my rationale:

A Buddhist pilgrim called Wu-k'ung passed through Uighur territory in 789, but left his Sanskrit books in Beshbalik for safety's sake because he knew the kaghan was not a Buddhist. He clearly felt that the city was beyond Uighur jurisdiction.

Also not sure why you had to go to the library just to get the book when you can download it from genesis library which is much faster and probably better quality as well.

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