CK2 Dev Diary #62: News from China

[Foreign Alien]

Hosting allies' army isn't quite the same as being occupied though.
And the Cambridge History of Central Asia apparently shares my rationale:


Your search for "An Historical Atlas of Central Asia" did not match any pages.

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Or am I looking at the wrong place?

Here? http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?re...open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=0&column=def

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Here? http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?re...open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=0&column=def

Wow. Thanks!

 

[Foreign Alien]

FOr what it's worth I think Bregel is just straight up wrong and his source is too general for this. None of the other sources say anything about Karasahr being conquered in 763.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

FOr what it's worth I think Bregel is just straight up wrong and his source is too general for this. None of the other sources say anything about Karasahr being conquered in 763.

I don't want to accuse someone for being wrong before looking through their reference, but in this case it looks like an ass pull or a mistake.

In that same year Tibet sacked the Tang capital Chang'an and had a puppet emperor in place for a while, but ultimately couldn't hold it. IMO it's really unlikely for Tibet to split its forces to conquer a secondary city in the Tarim Basin at the same time.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

The text next to the map mentions the expansion of Uyghur power but not the supposed conquest of Karashahr in 763.

UNESCO's History of the Civilizations of Central Asia Vol. 3, page 363

Then, availing themselves of the withdrawal of the Chinese garrison, they succeeded in occupying the Gansu corridor and the Four Garrisons of the An-hsi Protectorate-General (from 763 onwards). Thus the Tibetans attained their long-desired objective: complete control of the route through the Gansu corridor and the Tarim to Central Asia, Kashmir and northern India; and through modern Afghanistan to Transoxania and Iran. Their military presence in these vast areas also allowed them, from 791 onwards, steadfastly to oppose the challenge posed by the Arabs in Central Asia.

The "Four Garrisons" were Kucha, Kashgar, Khotan, and Suyab, with Karashahr taking place for Suyab from 719 onwards.

Bibliography on the chapter of that particular book is quite extensive.

You can also see similar statements scattered throughout Cambridge's History of China mentioning the Tibetans taking the area over in the early 760s and launching at least annual raids every fall for the next 20-ish years. They took over some forts in Sichuan and were power projecting over different parts of China in addition to having removed the best horse pasturing fields from the Tang.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

UNESCO's History of the Civilizations of Central Asia Vol. 3, page 363



The "Four Garrisons" were Kucha, Kashgar, Khotan, and Suyab, with Karashahr taking place for Suyab from 719 onwards.

Bibliography on the chapter of that particular book is quite extensive.

You can also see similar statements scattered throughout Cambridge's History of China mentioning the Tibetans taking the area over in the early 760s and launching at least annual raids every fall for the next 20-ish years. They took over some forts in Sichuan and were power projecting over different parts of China in addition to having removed the best horse pasturing fields from the Tang.

That's not cited by Bregel, but okay::

The year marked the end of Chang'an's control of the Anxi region, but the garrison was actually never withdrawn, and the Chinese garrison of cities west of Beshbalik held out at least until the late 780s as attested by Wukong, even without any orders from Chang'an.

Plus the map didn't use that year to mark the fall of any other of the Four Garrisons, so it's unlikely for Bregel to have interpreted "contact lost" as "conquered" as UNESCO might have done.

And then the sentence preceding your quote is:

In the reverse direction, the Tibetans took the opportunity of the An Lushan rebellion (755–763) to invade China proper and even captured Ch’angan, placing a boy-emperor on the T’ang throne for 15 days (in the eleventh month of 763).

However, this puppet emperor named Li Chenghong had been active since the Kaiyuan era, which ended in 741, so there's no way he could be a "boy" by 763. The current theory of why the Tibetan Emperor Trisong Detsen chose him was that Chenghong was technically his uncle (or cousin) through the marriage of Chenghong's sister (or aunt), Princess Jincheng, and Trisong Detsen's father, Emperor Tride Tsuktsen, and not that he was a boy. So I believe that this section of the book was based on sources that are now outdated.

 

[rheagar]

I don't get it. If you're going to add China, you should allow us to play China.

Either don't put it in but if you are, put it in fully.

 

[Damarrocarion]

That's not cited by Bregel, but okay::

The year marked the end of Chang'an's control of the Anxi region, but the garrison was actually never withdrawn, and the Chinese garrison of cities west of Beshbalik held out at least until the late 780s as attested by Wukong, even without any orders from Chang'an..

So..there would need to be independent Chinese polity there rather than WP itself due to lack of contact to capital? And if that screenshot is any guide, Tibet does not control western Tarim but neither do those areas seem to be tributaries of China due to realm name being visible.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

So..there would need to be independent Chinese polity there rather than WP itself due to lack of contact to capital?

I mean that the entire Western Protectorate (Anxi) itself was cut off from the rest of China, along with what's left of the Beiting and Hexi, after Tibet took the narrow Hexi corridor before occupying Chang'an in 763

so they're out of Chang'an's reach by 769, and the Emperor shouldn't have any direct control on them like what the devs plan to do

You will not be able to play as the Western protectorate - it acts similarly to the Papal title, it's used for tracking what China does and is unsuitable for play.

But it's only due to the loss of communication. If Tang somehow recovered the Corridor (which they never did), then the mechanic should work fine.

And if that screenshot is any guide, Tibet does not control western Tarim but neither do those areas seem to be tributaries of China due to realm name being visible.

Which is why I'm voicing my objection.


BTW, I visualized Wukong's journey which has been mentioned several times already

Cities are labelled according to how Wukong called them, with their modern name in brackets.
The time next to the label is the length of his stay.
Blue underline indicates the Four Garrisons, and also the cities where Wukong mentioned the presence of both a Chinese commander and a king.
Underlined red text indicates the name and seat of a protectorate.
It's unknown where Jusede was exactly, as it didn't appear in any other texts.

 

[Damarrocarion]

Thinking about game mechanics: realistically speaking, how likely it is that WP is on map at other times? So having WP on map at 769 might offer people the change to play as part of "China", perhaps only one, even if technically WP should not be there.

 

[darthfanta]

Been wondering.Is it possible to interact with the Chinese Imperial family?Like marrying a princess?

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

stuff

This is quite an extensive answer. My earlier post is not an attempt at a statement on what I feel should be done, just that the idea that the Body taking the area in the 763 is moderately attested in a few easily-found English resources.

Personally, the region should probably - in game terms - be independent and Han cultured (at least in terms of the power structure) and with a mechanism in-game to try and reestablish contact with China. That's a very simple version of what I'm thinking about and not remotely fleshed out.

 

[Foreign Alien]

Well they're not really simulating that part of China so really it makes little difference except as an abstraction. Ya Western Protectorate should probably be independent, but you could say the same thing about cut off territory and surrounded territory and really really far off territory in the game. Like how likely is it that Ireland has this one county in the middle of the middle east? Functionally speaking they would be totally different entities, but in game terms they're still under the same administration.

 

[Stepkick]

This is funny actually. So there is gonna be a pop up message from China every so often, and people are going to pay for this? Lol.

 

[Eltener]

This means that the far east won't ever be in the game though, since it'll render much of this DLC redundant :/

 

[Nitrate55]

I'm really not understanding how people are hoping to be able to invade china or install their own ruler on the Dragon Throne when China is not even on the map...

I like the idea of China being invaded by the Aztecs though, with the Aztecs eventually spilling into the western protectorate and invading Europe from the East rather than the west. Also, I'm very interested to see what the map would look like after converting to EU4 and looking at what EU4 China looks like after the Middle Ages. Even better, seeing how China looks after converting when China has been invaded by the Aztecs in CK2.

 

[darthfanta]

Realistically, how would you contact them? Why would you, as a ruler or vassal lord/duke in a land as far away as Europe, if you were able to contact them at all, want to marry the princess of a royal family you've never heard of, a princess who doesn't even speak a language spoken anywhere in Europe? Plus, the Chinese royal family would most likely never even consider the thought of marrying one of their princesses to some weird lord from a faraway land they've barely heard much about. It's just not realistic.

If I'm in the Tarim Basin,Tibet or the Steppe,it would be in my interest to do so.Traditionally,a lot of entities tried to marry Chinese princesses because the emperor generally provides a retinue full of craftsmen,skilled personnel and a large dowry which gives a tremendous tech boost,not to mention a large jump in prestige.A lot of Chinese emperors,especially those in the Tang Dynasty did marry princesses to the rulers of such areas.

 

[tigier]

the chinese hairstyle is right ,but the chinese armor is wrong 。chinese never have the aomor on the picture . the raal armor of TANG (or SONG) is more beautful than that . This can be seen from the paintings of SONG 。for example ，“the picture of Strip off armour” by 李公麟 。

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Thinking about game mechanics: realistically speaking, how likely it is that WP is on map at other times? So having WP on map at 769 might offer people the change to play as part of "China", perhaps only one, even if technically WP should not be there.

Basically none, so I should probably give it a pass.

the chinese hairstyle is right ,but the chinese armor is wrong 。chinese never have the aomor on the picture . the raal armor of TANG (or SONG) is more beautful than that . This can be seen from the paintings of SONG 。for example ，“the picture of Strip off armour” by 李公麟 。

By wrong, do you mean that they're movie props instead of a legitimate style?

 

[Thure]

Realistically, how would you contact them? Why would you, as a ruler or vassal lord/duke in a land as far away as Europe, if you were able to contact them at all, want to marry the princess of a royal family you've never heard of, a princess who doesn't even speak a language spoken anywhere in Europe? Plus, the Chinese royal family would most likely never even consider the thought of marrying one of their princesses to some weird lord from a faraway land they've barely heard much about. It's just not realistic.

You know... there are places like Tarim Basin, Mongolia, the Steppes and Tibet on the map? The game isn't about Europe alone.