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EU4 - Development Diary - 5th of September 2017

Good morning world! Tuesday rolls around and while I must spend many hours stirring up the dev multiplayer contestants to start a word war, it is also time for another Developer Diary. As mentioned in last week's diary on Army Professionalism, today we're giving attention to a part of the game which hasn't seen much development in EU4's life with Trade Policies

For owners of the upcoming expansion accompanying Update 1.23, you will be able to set a trade policy in any node where your nation has a merchant present. There is no cost to setting your policy, and they can be changed with a 12 month cooldown. Policies available to all nations are:

  • Maximize Profits: +5% trade power
  • Hostile Trading: +25% Spy network speed in nations with present merchant or home node.

  • Establish Communities: +15% Improve relations with all other nations with their home node or a merchant present located here.
  • Improve Inland Routes: +1 combat terrain bonus in trade node provinces. Only possible with 33% of Trade Power in a node
The default policy selected for any merchant is Maximize Profits. For unknown reasons, the Inland Routes policy has proven very popular in the office.

trade policies 1.jpg


I said these were the policies available for everyone, but as some may have gathered from screenshots and dev diaries, we are taking quite the shining to the Islamic world in 1.23. As such, there is a specific Trade Policy available to Muslims: Propagate Religion.

When a Muslim nation controls more than 33% of the Trade Power in a Trade Company Region's node, they are able to activate the Propagate Religion Trade Policy, which will establish a Religious Centre in the node, spreading this religion within the node, as can be seen in my totally legit Omani screenshot

trade policies 2.jpg


There are events associated with the Trade Policies, including specific flavour events should Religion be propagated through Indonesia.

While we're talking about the South East, let's take a look at the trade goods setup here.

trade goods SEA.jpg


A few changes to be seen here, particularly with gems and incense in the region, which should be noted are both added to the possible goods that colonies here can produce.

Cheers for checking out today's Dev diary, but I must now go around the office antagonizing our Dev Clash players. Next week we'll continue on the theme of Islam and look directly at the changes coming to the Muslim World.
 
Ability to turn merchants into uber-missionaries seems also pretty broke. Even if your aim is not to convert entire node, you can still use this ability to cripple locals with uprisings, drop in taxes and expenses needed to reconvert provinces. Especially if you are in east asia the odds get even more stacked against you. Technology gap makes it harder to control trade for them than for other nations, even in their home nodes.
There should definitely be a way to counter this, maybe a mechanic simulating Sakoku or Haijin that heavily reduces (more so than embargos) foreign religion trade power at the cost of technological development.
 
@DDRJake So the merchant has to be present at that node? Let's say I make an opponent go away via Slander Merchant. The opponent, can't use these or stuck with the one he/she last chose?

A merchant must be present in a node for a nation to use a Trading Policy. If they want to propagate religion or improve routes, they must also have >33% trade power in that node. Taking action to reduce your rivals' power and keep them away from using them is viable.

Does this disable the religious centre and its effects?

If you crush a nation's trade power, you will be able to stop the religious centre and it's effects. example: Malacca is spreading Islam to your Hindu Moluccas, you can destroy their navy/force them to give you trade power/rob their centres of trade/increase your own trade share until they are not able to have the religious centre anymore, and it will cease to exist, along with its effects.

Do this religious centre can spread its religion to provinces held by a Trade Company?

Yes, it will spread to all provinces in a trade node, with some exceptions, such as recently converted provinces with Religious Zeal.

Will you actually have to have a province in a tradenode, or simply a merchant to unlock these abilities?

A merchant will suffice.

All of the past dev diaries on this next patch and dlc have hyped me for things I didn't know I wanted in eu4. This dev diary I was a more disappointed with these changes and not sure if I would like them until I read @DDRJake 's update post on page 2, and since then I've felt much better about it. Thanks to @DDRJake and @Trin Tragula for helping to set a level-headed tone for dev diary comments and responses :)

Some questions I have:

Will there be any way for you to be able to see what other countries pick for their trade policy in a node? Even just a tooltip somewhere?

How frequently are AI Muslim nations going to pick the propagating policy. Will AI nations affected by propagate religion react to counter it? Are there any notifications to alert a player to propagating Muslims in your lands?

Will the propagate religion mechanic be limited by age like other religion mechanics?

Thanks, we like to follow up on what people have to say about the diaries rather than fire and forget. I read every Dev diary comment, from the "This has changed my life" to the "I'll never play your game again"

It will be visible in the trade node interface which nations have taken which policy and very visible if someone has started propagating their religion. As for the AI, they will be interested in Indonesia, but we won't be seeing the AI Islamify India anytime soon. Also: Ages. Nope, this will be available 1444 - 1821

Should that be a world war? Or are you trying to start an epic poetry contest? Not that I mind.

When we have the likes of Groogy and Daniel there, every war is a word war.

Trade policies? Propagate Religion ? More love for the Islamic world including Indonesia ?

Madness, is it not?
 
In that case, Christianity also spread through those nodes via trade (Krishitan, Chinese Catholics, etc. etc.) Why make this a feature exclusive to Islam?

Aren't these already represented by events though? But I would like it if the Pope could start an "Missionaries arrive" event chain in Asian countries, if only to represent the countless missionaries that tried to convert other nations in many different ways. Catholicism's ferocious love for proselytizing is not represented at all right now.
 
Hello DDRJake and EU IV team, I have a constructive remark about this.

I don't think having Merchants improve inland routes makes sense in a strictly military and tactical way to warrant a +1 combat terrain bonus. I mean, merchants dont act as scouts for armed forces on the side to give them tips on the terrain that much.

Merchant stick to existing road infrastructure and only go off the beaten path if there's something to gain out of it or a time sensitive imperative.

However having merchant operate extensive trade routes in a node should give a military edge by abstracting better supply lines. I would change it as follows:

  • Improve Inland Routes: + 33% reinforce speed in trade node provinces. Only possible with 33% of Trade Power in a node

or alternatively

  • Improve Inland Routes: + X amount of supply limit bonus in trade node provinces. Only possible with 33% of Trade Power in a node.
  • Improve Inland Routes: + X amount of attrition reduction bonus in trade node provinces. Only possible with 33% of Trade Power in a node.

That just my humble opinion, I think It makes it more authentic, more subtle and less OP.

Best Regards Et Vive L'Auld Alliance!
Reasonable.
 
Can the trade node policy spread Islam in uncolonized provinces/trade company provinces/dhimmi provinces/provinces of other branches of Islam/undiscovered provinces?
 
Ironically enough, Propagate Religion seems pretty useful if you want to expand as an impious Muslim ruler because it will increase the amount of True Faith countries you can attack.

I understand its intended to model the spread of Islam in South and South-East Asia but personally I'm interested in throwing in a twist during European religious struggles.
 
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This Dev Diary is looking great guys! I must admit I'm kinda disappointed about how weak the +5% Trade Power modifier is, compared to some of the other bonuses. As for other bonuses, perhaps a bonus related to goods produced could be added for those with >33% trade power in a node, which would virtually be giving the a monopoly on the trade there, thus allowing them to further their production. Just a thought ;)
 
Sounds like yet another set of useless +meaninglessBonus items that contribute to how bloated the game has become. I couldn't care less about +5% this or that or +1 combat width. It makes no difference whatsoever (in SP).

Why don't you fix things that are severely lacking, such as the entire Naval game (warfare, shipbuilding, maintenance) instead?
 
It feels like people are misinterpreting what the dice roll bonus is supposed to represent. Having high trade power in a node represents your ability to move goods and people. I feel like it's a clever way to marry the (currently absent) concepts of logistics and supply lines with the already existing mechanics of the game.

People are suggesting movement speed or reduced attrition instead, but I don't think those are impactful enough, whereas one extra dice roll is a big deal, it's worth committing resources into. Besides, I don't think people realize how hard it can be to maintain a 33% share. France starts with only 22% of the trade in Champagne because of how Caravan power works, they would only get the bonus in Bordeaux. Austria doesn't have it in Wien either. Castile would lose it in Sevilla if they get a couple provinces occupied.

I'm personally very excited about the impact this is going to have in multiplayer. It's a massive indirect buff to naval play: If you can get naval superiority over your enemies you can send a huge fleet of light ships to acquire the bonus wherever you're fighting, and even deny it to the defending nation. This makes embargoing and privateering a lot more relevant as well. Occupying centers of trade during a war will be huge, to the point where it will probably be worth it to burn a lot of military power and troops on assaults in order to get one before the opponent can react.

War in EU4 is currently rather shallow strategically, it kind of still boils down to who has the strongest stack. I feel like this adds a whole new layer that i'm eager to explore, and is steering the game in the right direction.
 
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Good to see the responses from Jake, and I'm glad to hear the Islamic propagation is restricted to trade company provinces. I do wonder what these Ottoman changes will be if they apparently aren't quite as OP as before (and they are insanely OP atm!).
 
I think selecting Trade policies or changing them should cost something, either MP or a portion of the yearly revenue (10% for example), I find it unreasonable that it will be completely free.
 
I feel like the Ottomans are fine as is in game, if anything remove the absurd requirements for stopping the decadence event. Just make it so they can actually be checked by the AI instead of relying on the player to fight them every ironman game. I've seen massive coalitions win against them and do nothing to them after winning.
 
Maybe a rude question, but why would I want to spread my religion before conquering an area?
 
I don't think reliability of muslim traders and efforts of sufi scholars in the region were simple reasons for natives to convert to Islam considering the horror created by dutch and portugese expansionism, which eventually accelerated the process of spread of Islam among native folks.

This point is very controversial and scholars seem to be divided. If Malay rulers had converted to Islam in order to find allies against the Portuguese, and later Dutch, then this would explain their conversion very easily. The problem is that the dates don't work. The trading cities and power centres converted in a wave travelling from west to east: north Sumatra in the early 14th century, Malaya in the 15th century, Java in the 16th century AD. The process had started before the Europeans arrived. Although this game is called Europa Universalis, not every part of history started in Europe, as you know! :p

Secondly, there's no such thing as missionaries in Islamic literature as in the case of catholic faith.
As you have said, there were Sufi scholars in the region. Why were they there, in an area with few Muslims, far from the scholars of Mecca and Cairo? Some of them had been sent by their order (tariqa) specifically to spread and strengthen their faith, so they were missionaries. The most famous is Abd' al-Ra'uf Singkel of the Shattariyya. They taught the Muslim merchants how to live, which included business, which meant that they had to teach Malay rulers how to do business according to Islamic teaching. While there had been Arab traders for centuries, the Sufi scholars seem to have been a new development in the 14th century, which explains why conversions began to happen at that time.

You couldn't just send some missionaries to convert a foreign ruler immediately. That's neither logical nor possible.

That is certainly a strategy that Christian missionaries have tried many times; Augustine of Canterbury is a famous example. And Malaysian scholars usually think that is what happened in southeast Asia. For example:
Ahmad Fauzi Abdul Hamid said:
The decisive step was almost always the conversion of a local ruler ... (p. 472)

In propagating the faith to the rajas (kings) and rulers of the Malay world, they [Sufi missionaries] did not expect a swift wholesale transformation of the state into one resembling the Prophet's Islamic state of Madinah. Instead, they calculated that the Malay masses, still imbued with the Hindu concept of dewaraja i.e. of the king being the incarnation of a deity, would follow without hesitation the example set by their leaders and hence speeding up the pace of their being brought into the fold of Islam. Proselytisation of the rulers, far from being an end in itself, served as a means towards large-scale missionary activities. (p.485)

Truth is, muslim arab merchants had very firm trade connections with the far East and India ever since the 7th century. They used to trade in China, Korea, Bengal and southeastern Asia. So they were well known by the native people. Besides, the sufi masters I mentioned above managed to familiarise the people with Islam by serving as models.

Yes, all this is true. But you seem to think that this was not a political process. I think your language could be understood as people watching a Muslim doing deals in a small bazaar, admiring their honesty, and converting. But these were not small businesspeople. Trading across the Indian Ocean needed large amounts of capital; these were the multinational corporations of the 14th and 15th centuries. And that had two effects.

Firstly, the Muslim merchants managed these complex businesses arrangements through Islamic commercial law, which was more developed than the existing systems in southeast Asia. When the sources talk about the honesty of Muslim merchants, they mean their advanced legal technology. And unlike today, there were no secular lawyers: the legal experts were those Sufi scholars. The only way to access the legal technology was to become Muslim.

Secondly, the Muslim merchants were closely tied together: they met for worship, intermarried, and increasingly belonged to the same Sufi orders. So they naturally tended to do business as a group. If a Malay ruler converted, then he could join this exclusive group (as a I said before, ruler = trader). And when disputes broke out between Malay cities or amongst royal families, the one closest to the Muslim multinational business group had a big advantage. It was a similar situation to the 20th century 'banana republics', where American fruit companies had the power to choose the rulers, without American colonization or invasions.

Thus, Islamisation of far east had very little in common with christianisation of northern Europe which was largely result of political concerns of pagan rulers against ever growing christianity and military campaigns of christian rulers upon pagans. I'm not saying rulers converting to Islam had no effect on the spread of Islam in the region.Yet, the efforts of local rulers to spread Islam is not the same case as that in the colonization and asimiliation of western powers. That's what makes this mechanic exclusive to muslims in the game.

I may have been unhelpful in introducing an example from medieval Christian Europe into this conversation, as I guess that it may not be something you have studied much. I don't think you could describe that process of Christianization as colonization. I think Danish, English, Swedish, etc. people would be very surprised to hear they had been colonized from Rome and assimilated many centuries after the end of the western Roman Empire! They were not colonized, but converted, and just as in southeast Asia, the conversion of rulers was a deliberate missionary strategy.

But as I said, I think the new game mechanism is a good one for this topic.

If you allow me to give recommendation for the subject, I suggest that you do some academic reading starting with Dr. Hee Soo Lee's books about the spread of Islam in the far east. Regards...

As far as I can find, Dr Lee's books have not been translated into English. They have been written in Korean and (translated into???) Turkish. I found only one article in English, published in Turkey, about Islam in northeast Asia (China and Korea). This was very helpful in drawing my attention to an aspect I had not considered before, so thank you for the recommendation. He shows that the first Chinese converts to Islam were Han women who married Arab merchants. Again, we should not imagine young women falling in love with handsome heroes. I'm sure there were many handsome Muslim merchants :p, but these were power couples: Han families exchanging their daughters for better access to powerful Arab men. This happened in southeast Asia too and apparently one scholar (Harrison) has argued that intermarriage was the main way Islam spread.

I think it is more likely that a few key marriages were very important in persuading some of the rulers to convert; certainly the Sultans of Malacca used princesses to persuade other Malay rulers to convert. Again, this closely parallels northern Europe: Augustine of Canterbury's mission was only possible because the King of Kent had married a Christian princess from Francia, and later Kentish Christian kings often married their daughters to pagan kings in return for the right to send missionaries. In fact, a young scholar (Wain) has just written a thesis arguing the first conversion of a Sultan of Malacca happened when Zheng He gave him a Chinese Muslim wife! :eek: This is revolutionary if it's true, but his article was published in a fake journal, so it seems other scholars aren't convinced!

Your comments have really given me an interesting afternoon learning more about this subject, so thank you. Maybe I can return your kindness by sharing some articles that I found helpful:

  • Syed Farid Alatas (2007) Notes on various theories regarding the Islamization of the Malay archipelago, The Muslim World, 75:3-4
  • Ahmad Fauzi Abdul Hamid (2002) The impact of Sufism on Muslims in pre-colonial Malaysia: An overview of interpretations, Islamic Studies 41:3 [this is not Oxford's Journal of Islamic Studies, it's from Islamabad, but as a non-expert I thought it was a good essay]
  • A.H.Hill (1963) The coming of Islam to North Sumatra, Journal of Southeast Asian History, 4:1
  • Anthony H. Johns (1993) Islamization in Southeast Asia : Reflections and reconsiderations with special reference to the role of Sufism, Southeast Asian Studies 31:1
  • G.H. Marrison (1957) History of Islam in Malaya, The Muslim World, 47:4
  • Alexander Wain (2012) Chinese Muslims and the conversion of Melaka to Islam, IPEDR 51 [this is not a proper peer-reviewed journal]
I'm not an expert, so there are probably better ones.
 
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Not a big fan of trade policy giving bonus to combat, I really feel it just buffs already strong nations which don't need it.

Edit: It just now sunk in how heinously strong this really is. This buff is flat-out better than all the others by a mile.
 
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Let's imagine the hypothetical situation in which there is a tradre node controlled 33% by a Sunni nation, 33& by a Chia and another 33% by an Ibadie. Can theese three nations select the 'propagete religion' police? if possible, will this generate three CoR one of each religion?

Another question I have is if two or more nations of the same school (p.e. Sunni) use propagate religion, is it going to be two CoR of the same religion?
 
I'd rather the +1 Combat trade policy gave movement speed or a bonus similar to that of hordes in flat terrain. +1 seems too powerful and, huh, "high-maintenance" to have zero oppottunity cost (MP/money investment, cooldown etc). It's almost a win-more mechanic.