• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
Kublai became emperor of China after Mongke death whom he succeeded.

Off map. Kublai Khan didn't rule something on the map And he was already made governor over a large part of China after Mongke death. Also: Kublai Khan was never accepted as Great Khan and because of this ruled nothing which was on the map.
 
Emperors of China had imperial harems to guarantee heirs.
He was talking about if the emperor or empress could not smash at all. Im prett sure they were also able to adopt heirs if infertility was a problem.
 
Anyone else remember when the focus of CKII was a game about the feudal realms of Europe?

Mechanics that we have been waiting for since release:
-The shifting loyalties of counts and dukes during the hundred years war and similar conflicts
-The sack of Constantinople during the 4th crusade
-The difficulties of a weak king to control vassals (has just gotten easier and easier...)
-The difficulty of keeping armies of levies in the field (has just gotten easier and easier...)
-Religious conflicts within realms (e.g. Cathars, Mozarabs, Leventines)
-The creation of a kingdom of Jerusalem, i.e. the CRUSADER KINGS :p

But there are going to be mechanics for the invasion of china...
 
Focus of CK2 was always about characters and their relationship through diplomacy, intrigue and war.

It was at this start and that is why I am intensely irritated at this new DLC focused entirely on interaction between the player as a nationstate and China as a nationstate. Every single mechanic in Jade Dragon could be used in EUIV without the slightest change. That really shows how irrelevant characters have become to CKII. The change just happened slowly enough that a lot of people didn't notice.
 
Last edited:
It was at this start and that is why I am intensely irritated at this new DLC focused entirely on interaction between the player as a nationstate and China as a nationstate. Every single mechanic in Jade Dragon could be used in EUIV without the slightest change. That really shows how irrelevant characters have become to CKII. The change just happened slowly enough that a lot of people didn't matter.
Yet, the very last expansion released was about characters joining various societies, where you could raise through ranks, improve yourself greatly, and have many ways to significantly influence other characters.

Expansion prior to that one had greatly expanded upon diseases that can fall upon characters. It also significantly impacted realms, forcing characters to take dire measures.

Or the expansion before even that one, where your council became a powerful entity, and which forced you to take extra measure and to more carefully manage your vassals and other important characters....


How did they make characters irrelevant?
It's not that I'm a fanboy.....I'm literally stating the main focus of those expansions.
 
Yet, the very last expansion released was about characters joining various societies, where you could raise through ranks, improve yourself greatly, and have many ways to significantly influence other characters.

Yay, I get a bunch of mechanics that are absolutely not dependent on other characters! BTW, can you name me a single king during the timeframe of the game who joined a society?

Meanwhile there was an actual society of great historical importance called the Knight Templar whose maritime activities and moneylending were very important and neither of which are represented in game...

Or the expansion before even that one, where your council became a powerful entity, and which forced you to take extra measure and to more carefully manage your vassals and other important characters.... left vassals factions even weaker then they were before the first DLC and gave the monarch new mechanics to party like it's 1699.

FTFY
 
Wouldn't the world be a better/less facepalmy place if people could decouple their own personal preference not being catered to and overall quality?
 
It's pretty stupid that you have to give China away to a relative. Should've just put it on the map!
I agree, that would have been a lot more fun and interesting! You could have had more meaningful interactions with the region. With actual proper conquests and vassals rather than just off map invasions. You could have actually seen what's going on in China (or played as it) rather than just having it as an abstraction.

It's only abstracted to portray you're fighting in China. Because China is not on the map they can't fight in CHina.
Which is another good reason they should have added China to the map.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't the world be a better/less facepalmy place if people could decouple their own personal preference not being catered to and overall quality?

Wouldn't the world be a better place if people could understand the difference between criticism and saying something must be bad?

I have no problem with a game depicting all of Eurasia. I just am ticked off at the pretty obvious mission creep while the original features were never completed. People like this game, it's just no longer the game they first set out to build.
 
The problem with CK2 is that Paradox essentially abandoned Europe when they went out of their way to add places irrelevant to crusades like India. For a game that's ostensibly about the crusades and named Crusader Kings crusades and Europe are probably among the least developed areas in the game.