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EU4 - Development Diary - 26th of September 2017

Good afternoon all. While time's relentless march shows no sign of slowing and we are pulled closer to the bleak white embrace of winter, we can at least take solace that Tuesday has rolled around once again, and we can indulge in another Dev Diary for Europa Universalis IV.

I want to start off talking about the titular changes for the 1.23 Persia Update. As the name and previous diaries have shown, we've given quite the overhaul to the Persia region and I want to take a closer look at what has changed. For a more in-depth analysis of the map changes that have happened, I would recommend checking out the old dev diary @Trin Tragula wrote last month, which I will be plagiarizing borrowing slightly from for today.

political.jpg


It's a tricky time in Persia for the Timurid Empire. Ajam is considered an independent nation and the vassals Tansoxiana, Sistan, Khorasan, Fars and Afghanistan are chafing under the rule of the old and sickly Shah Rukh. So long as he lives, there is a great reduction to the liberty desire of these vassals but when he dies, the Timurid Empire is likely to fall into a long and costly civil war.

We're happy with the changes we have made in the region to model this, and have felt that the key players in the region were deserving of their own National Ideas. Note that some nations will share ideas with others in the area due to their similarities

Ajam: Independent nation, starting development: 93

QOM_ideas = {
Traditions = {
diplomats = 1
production_efficiency = 0.1
}
Ambition = {
diplomatic_upkeep = 1
}


qom_jibal = {
When the Arabs once came to Persia they dubbed our region Jibal, the mountains, as the many mountains of the Zagros and Alborz ranges is what defines it. On the western border of greater Iran the region is the gateway between the states of the Turkic Caucasus and Greater Iran.\nYet Jibal is not all mountains, for in the basins lie a number of Iran’s oldest and greatest cities and between these basins passes and roads connect the urban population of our Empire. As the empires before us, from the ancient Medes to the Timurids, we must fortify passes and patrol the roads as well as we can, as they are the lifeline of our state.

defensiveness = 0.2
}
in_honor_of_ali = {
Regardless of if they consider themselves Sunni or Shia, the great majority of our subjects honor the Imams, the family of Muhammad and even Ali. While this conviction is regarded as a weakness by some legal scholars it is something that unites our people, be they Sufi mystics, regular Sunnis, Alevis or Twelver Shias.

tolerance_heretic = 3
}
qom_legacy_of_the_ilkhans = {
For hundreds of years Iran and the Caucasus have been dominated by Turkic warriors. They have made up the military foundation of a number of states such as those of the Ilkhanate, Seljuks or more recently the Timurids. Ajam sits at the very center of the greater Turko-Persian region, and for this reason it was here that the Ilkhans once constructed their capital at Sultaniyya. Today the Ilkhans are long gone but their monuments and their traditions remain, in Sultaniyya their mausoleum still bear witness to the empire that once was.\nIf we want to dominate this region we must embrace the Ilkhanate ideals of kingship, and win the loyalty of the Turkic warriors that still dwell here.

land_morale = 0.1
}
qom_persian_language_and_court_culture = {
High Persian culture remains a constant through the ages, no matter which conquerors come and go. Iran has fallen many times, but in the end it is Persian language and culture that spread to their homelands. From Anatolia to Samarkand, and even Bengal, it is the tongue of Hafiz and Rumi that will open doors to traders, politicians and scholars.

diplomatic_reputation = 1
envoy_travel_time = -0.25
}
qom_tribes_of_iraq_e_ajam = {
These lands have been dubbed Iraq-e Ajam, or Foreign Iraq, by outsiders and is dominated by Persian citydwellers and Turkic warriors brought by the Mongols, Seljuks and Timurids. On the outskirts of the great settlements, however, a great number of groups of nomads and semi-nomads traverse and populate the region, Arabs, Turkomans, Baluch, Kalaj and Bedouin. Some have been here for centuries, others arrived more recently, all of them have traditionally been left mostly to their own devices. We should make use of these groups in our defences, as none knows the Persian countryside better than they do.

fort_maintenance_modifier = -0.1
global_manpower_modifier = 0.1
}
reform_the_diwan = {
#Same as Timurids
}
qom_shahanshah = {
"To this day the legacy of the Persian Empire lives in the form of the kingly title Shah, used by Persianate rulers everywhere. We must unite the entire Iranian people under our ruler, Shahanshah, the King of Kings."

reduced_liberty_desire = 10
}

Fars: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 57
FRS_ideas = {
Traditions = {
global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
idea_cost = -0.1
}
Ambition = {
dip_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
}
trigger = {
tag = FRS
}
free = yes

frs_land_of_the_persians = {
In many countries Persia and Persians, derived from Fars and Farsis, are the names used to refer to all of Iran. So important has our impact on the culture and economy of this region been. From the foothills of the Zagros mountains to the coasts of the Persian Gulf, the lands of Fars harbors some of the oldest and most famous cities of Iranians and Iranian culture.

tolerance_own = 2
}
frs_center_of_religion_and_philosophy = {
For centuries Fars and Shiraz has been a vibrant center of philosophy, theology and culture, attracting the great thinkers of its age from all over the Persianate and Islamic world. We must not squander this heritage, let us continue to patronize the arts, literature and theology so that we can continue to shine as the brightest jewel in Persia.

adm_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
}
frs_diplomatic_prudence = {
frs_diplomatic_prudence_desc:0 "Where other regions have been quick to support new rising conquerors, or quick to surrender with armies outside of their walls, Fars has often favored a more careful and balanced approach. The key to survival in a dangerous world is not to surrender as soon as we are threatened, but it is also not to go looking for a fight that we don’t yet know who will win. As new claimants to supremacy in Persia come and go we will carefully consider our options. Our people will be here long after any newcomers are gone, regardless of if they win or lose their petty conflicts."

improve_relation_modifier = 0.2
}
frs_shirazi_wine = {
Legend has it that it was in Persia wine was once discovered. A girl, having lost the favor of king Jamshid, drank the fermented grape juice in order to end her life. Instead she found the secret of wine and in little time it spread from the royal court.\nWine has been produced and consumed in Persia for millennia, but none can compete with those made from the excellent grapes cultivated on the terraced slopes of the Zagros mountains in Fars. The reputation of Shirazi wine has spread far beyond the borders and is greatly in demand even in India and Europe.\nWe must expand our irrigation system and do what we can to increase our wine production, while marketing our highly sought after goods on foreign markets.

production_efficiency = 0.1
}
frs_shirazi_school = {
As a center of learning it is perhaps no wonder that the workshops of Fars have risen to fame for the great output of books and miniature paintings. Famous master painters and bookmakers have always settled in our cities and enjoyed our protection.\nThe Shirazi school can only blossom with lavish support to create more books, however, and that is something we must provide if we are not to be overshadowed by Indian or Azerbaijani bookbinders and painters.

embracement_cost = -0.1
prestige = 0.5
}
frs_integrate_the_qashqai = {
While Fars is home to many sedentary Persians, and great cities and industries, it is also populated by large groups of nomadic tribesmen. The Qashqai and other groups have often been at odds with the city dwellers, leading to expensive conflicts between the two that does not benefit the realm.\nWe must integrate the Qashqai and give them place in our cities while guaranteeing their rights to use land for grazing. In return we ask that our ruler will be consulted for the appointment of new Ilkhans, their traditional leaders.

global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
}
frs_capital_for_an_empire = { #The Zand Ambition
With its close proximity to the gulf trade routes, its great importance to Persian culture and its relative safety from the enemies of our people, Fars is an ideal place from which to rule a Persian state. Let us take inspiration from the great Empires before us and create a capital worthy to this name. We must expand and renovate every part of the capital, building new canals for irrigation, public baths, bazaars, city walls, squares, palaces, mosques, madrassahs and gardens.\nAll who wish should be allowed space to settle here for this will be the greatest capital man has ever seen!

development_cost = -0.1
}
}

Khorasan: Vassal of Timurids, Starting development: 20
KHO_ideas = {
Traditions = {
cavalry_power = 0.15
land_morale = 0.1
}
Ambition = {
technology_cost = -0.05
}
trigger = {
tag = KHO
}
free = yes

kho_land_of_the_rising_sun = {
With large deserts, high mountains and large tribal communities, Khorasan might seem like an inhospitable place. Yet it is here, at the crossroads of Central Asia, Iran and India that many empires have chosen to base their capitals. Under Shah Rukh the region has prospered in relative stability, and the from the markets of Herat to the shrines of Mashhad we have built a reputation as the home of both great scholars, and thriving cities.

diplomatic_reputation = 1
}
kho_rein_in_the_turko_mongol_emirs = {
The majority of our armies are still made up of the tribesmen that Timur brought with him to this region. By organizing these troops in a more centralized manner than his predecessor, Timur strengthened his military power but he also made these Turko-Mongol emirs very powerful men in their own right. Where he was able to command their loyalty through personal gratitude and marriages we need to win their support in more long term ways.

army_tradition = 0.5
}
kho_princely_appanages = {
A realm as diverse and geographically divided as Khorasan can be hard to hold together. Often provincial governors will have to act quickly and with little chance to ask the center for instruction. It is essential that we have governors that we can trust both in terms of loyalty and ability.\nThe Timurid/Genghisid practice of putting the princes of the dynasty in such positions would likely serve us well, every governor will be motivated to do the most of his position if he has hope to inherit the throne himself.

global_manpower_modifier = 0.1
}
kho_dynastic_chronicles = {
Khorasan has a long history as a center of scholarly learning, and our hold over this land is new and untested. Let us fund the great scribes of the age, allowing them to compose the greatest chronicles of our age, firmly establishing our house as the leading dynasty of Eastern Persia.

legitimacy = 1
}
kho_irrigation_network = {
Agriculture comes at great cost in Khorasan, the land is dry and there are no major rivers to speak of. Our Persian administrators are suggesting that if our cities are to reach their full potential we will have to invest in a great number of irrigation works and cannals. With enough water even the rarest fruits can be grown from Herat to Mashhad and we can build gardens to the envy of all of Asia.

global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
}
kho_great_sheiks_of_khorasan = {
These lands are home to many Sufi shrines, orders and their lineages. The great Sheiks often take an active part in the social and political life in our society, and their influence stretches far from our borders. Even the faraway rulers of India patronizes Khorasani Sheiks of the Chisti or Naqshbandi Sufis, and Great Sultans send letters hoping to lure our wise sages to their courts.

tolerance_own = 2
}
kho_protect_the_caravan_routes = {
Between the Oxus, India and Iran, Khorasan is a region of great importance for long range commerce. The Silk Road passes through, connecting Samarkand with Iran and the Mediterranean, and is joined in Herat, by the Grand Trunk Road from India.\nThis long journey is a perilous and arduous one for many merchants however. By vowing to protect all merchants passing through our lands, and constructing regular caravanserais along the trade routes, we can greatly limit the risks and likely attract even more wealth to our great cities

trade_efficiency = 0.10
}
}

Transoxiana:
Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 127
TRS_ideas = {
Traditions = {
land_morale = 0.1
cavalry_cost = -0.1
}
Ambition = {
idea_cost = -0.1
}
trigger = {
tag = TRS
}
free = yes

trs_mawarannahr = {
Transoxiana, the land beyond the Amu Darya, or Oxus, has been known since the days of the great Iskandar of Macedon as the end of Persian culture. Our lands are where Iran ends and Turan starts, a realm of great cities, but also dominated by Turko-Mongol tribes.\nIn more recent times Transoxiana was the starting point for Timur Lenk's Empire and it remains the base for many of the clans that supported his bid for power. As Timur has shown we could do great things as long as we keep them united.

cavalry_power = 0.2
}
trs_threshold_of_paradise = {
While he was far from the first conqueror to come to Transoxiana, Timur made the region the center of his Empire and he brought treasures, artists, builders and artisans from the entire world to his great capital in Samarkand. We must strive to uphold this legacy, and continue to embellish this foremost jewel among cities. From the courts in Castile to the palaces in Beijing everyone shall covet the gilded city on the Silk Road.

prestige = 1
}
trs_adept_diplomacy = {
Through education and training our rulers acquire the virtues of great kingship, but there is no school that will teach how to survive in the political climate of Transoxiana. Ever since the days of Timur, young princes, uncles and cousins have plotted against one another for the right to rule this region. When one of our princes reach adulthood and manages to take on the reins of power, we can be sure that they are, if nothing else, quite adept at espionage and politics.\nIf our realm is to ever be free of this poisonous atmosphere we must put an end to such infighting, striving to outsmart the lesser scions of the family once and for all.

spy_offence = 0.2
}
trs_turkoman_cannoneers = { #Babur's ambition
While it is going to be a long while from determining any battles in the open lands of Transoxiana, gunpowder promises to change warfare to its very foundation. Turkic cannoneers have already made a name for themselves in India and Iran. The time has come to make sure these talented men of war never leave our lands. Let us put the most skilled gunsmiths to work and create the greatest artillery arm in Central Asia.

artillery_cost = -0.15
}
trs_scientific_patronage = {
Our realm his home to some of the greatest minds of this era. Great thinkers, philosophers, writers, artists and astronomers. If we are to truly benefit from their brilliance, however, we must dare give them the tools to aim higher. Let us build great works and buildings in the name of science. We will provide astronomical observatories, libraries and all patronage aspiring minds might require.\n\n'Religions rise and fall, empires crumble into dust, but the works of science are for all time.

technology_cost = -0.05
}
trs_entrepot_of_the_silk_road = {
While many places benefit from being transit points for the Silk Road, we are are the center of one of its greatest Entrepôts. From east, to west traders know of the reputation of Bukhara and Samarkand, and are willing to cross the deserts of the Tarim Basin and Iran or the great steppes to the north, to be able to sell their wares here, bringing home our silk, paper and whichever exotic goods they can find here to their homelands.\nOur wealth depends on keeping the peace. Without Timur, and Genghis Khan before him, many find this too dangerous to undertake. We must endeavour to protect all traders in our lands and negotiate right of passage for any long distance traders that seek our markets.

global_own_trade_power = 0.25
}
chagatai_literature = {
#Same as Timurids
}
}

Afghanistan: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 47
Already has National Ideas

Sistan: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 14
No unique national ideas (as of writing)

Phew, that's quite a lot. Well, This. Is. Persia. so I think we can talk a bit more about changes in the area. In order to get to that I want to look over at the meek and unassuming nation of Ardabil, complete with its one province and 9 development

In the borderlands between the crumbling Timurid Empire and the Qara Qoyunlu, a number of small sheikdoms are nominal vassals of both powers. In practice many of them are independent in all but name. Most of their neighbors will not be shown until next week but the one you can see here, Ardabil, would rise to unprecedented fame. In 1444 the rulers of Ardabil are under the influence of a growing Islamic sect, the Safavid Order. Historically Ardabil is the embryo of the future Persian Empire and the Safavid Dynasty. As such, Ardabil has a new Government form of Feudal Theocracy which it shares with precious few other nations.

Feudal Theocracy:
  • +1 Missionary (for Kingdom and Empire Rank)
  • +1 Missionary Strength
  • +1 Tolerance of True Faith (+2 at Empire Rank)
Feudal Theocracy functions as a Monarchy, but with heavy religious focus. This can be adopted by nations who form Persia. While this is a free change with the 1.23 Persia Update, the accompanying Expansion will allow the use of Government Interactions made available for Feudal Theocracies:

Feudal Theocracy interactions.jpg



Each interaction has its own cost and a 5 year cooldown.

  • 50 ADM - Seize Clerical Holdings: -15% Build Cost for 5 years.
  • 50 DIP - Invite Minorities from Abroad: Gain -20% development cost and +1 random development in your Capital Area.
  • 50 MIL - Sanction Holy War: Grants a claim on all non-allied non-(own)subject bordering provinces which are owned by a nation who is not the Feudal Theocracy’s State Religion,
As a final piece for today's dev diary, I will leave you with two screenshots which have been long requests: Cultural and Religious mapmodes for the whole area we've been working on:

Cultural.jpg


religious.jpg


These can be tricky subject matter to nail down in our setup. As such, if there are what you feel to be mis-representations, I would encourage you to tag myself and @Trin Tragula in a post in the Suggestions forum, with sources to back what you feel should be changed.

Phew, that was quite the diary. Next week let's relax with some Rum to unwind.
 
Such as Alexander's slow Hellenisation of Persia and Orientalisation of Makedon that his higherups hated?

Alexander was king of Persia for 7 years, and by the time of his death the war of the diadochoi was already starting.

Also, don't confuse the constant cultural exchange that happens in the world for forced conversion, even after conquest. Greece and Macedon were already heavily influenced by Persia, being in the periphery of a mighty empire, long before the war of Alexander. Of note during that time was also the ease with which Hellenes would equate their gods with others and even adopt "foreign" gods. Should we talk about an Egyptianisation of Greece because they readily adopted worship of Isis after the Macedonian conquest of Egypt? Even if the ruling Ptolemaic dynasty afterwards took over a lot of (percieved) Egyptian customs. Or how about the Carthaginians, who were never conquered by Greeks, yet fought as Hoplites (and later Phalangites) as well as building temples to Aphrodite?

I should've been cleared in my post that I was talking mostly about nomadic conquerors, like the Mongols, Turks, etc. These would have a much smaller cultural power, especially when settling when their (nomadic) customs would start to look obsolete to themselves.

Of course they were not the same, but creating an Oghuz "culture" group wouldn't be very good for the timeframe of EU4, when Turks/Azerbaijanis were already quite settled. As always people focus extremely hard on language groups, and not on customs, government systems, etc.
 
If I am not mistaken since i was born half Azari, we Azaris donot speak the same Turkish as Anatolian turks, also safavid empire was built by people of this region and they saw themselves closer to Persians than Turks, we celebrate Persian New year and many of Shia holidays. The list is long while Anatolian turks are alot different they are mostly Sunni they don't celebrate same things as us etc. Azaris in general are far closer to Persians than turks. Even though we are Turks.

There are a lot of difference between azari (iranian tribe which don't exist now), and azerbaijani turks. Anatolian turkic and Azerbaijani turkic is not one language, but they are in one oghuz group of turkic languages. Safavid empire was built by people, who saw themselves as azerbaijani turks, there are a lot of proofs about it. Soldiers and generals in Safawids army were also from those turk oghuz tribes (e.g. afshars, or qajars, which also ruled Persia later) and it is fact too.
For example:

- AT the Court of Persia, they speak nothing but Turkish, but a Dialect of Turkish so different from what is spoken at Constantinople, that (one may say,) it is a quite different Language. The reason why they speak Turkish there and not Persian, is not onely because the Turkish Language hath been introduced by the different Powers of Turks and Tartars, who conque∣red Persia; but also because that Language (which commonly none speak but those that belong to the Court,) distinguishes them from the rest of the People, and gives them a certain Pre-eminence and Authority which they affect to have on all occasions,* as being extremely vain glorious and proud.

(The travels of Monsieur de Thevenot into the Levant in three parts, viz. into I. Turkey, II. Persia, III. the East-Indies
Thévenot, Jean de, 1633-1667., Lovell, Archibald.)


- The Azeri Turks are Shiites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty. (Richard Nelson Frye)

- Ismail as-Safawi was himself not a Persian but a Turcoman, and he was very greatly venerated and even idolised amongst many Turcoman tribesmen who flocked in their thousands to his standard.

(David Ayalon. Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society. Vallentine, Mitchell, 1956)


- Hans Roemer argues, however, that Ismail’s etnhic origin must be accepted Turkish or Turcoman; “At any rate,” he writes, “Ismail’s Turkish or Turkoman descent is beyond any question.” See Hans R. Roemer, “The Qizilbash Turcomans: Founders and Victims of the Safavid Theocracy”, Intellectual Studies in Islam, eds., M. M. Mazzaoui-V. B. Moreen, Utah, 1990, p. 29.

*Turcoman (or turcman, turcmen, terkeme) is every oghuz turk which accepted islam religion.

I have a lot of information about it, and if you want, i can share with you.

we celebrate Persian New year and many of Shia holidays. The list is long while Anatolian turks are alot different they are mostly Sunni they don't celebrate same things as us etc.

Kazakhs, uzbeks, some of uqurs also celebrate persian new year novruz, do you mean that they see themselves as persians? "many of Shia holidays" - do you mean, that shia islam is the persian religion?
You just should read your own history, then you will know about oghuz tribes, which still live in Azerbaijan, Iranian Azerbaijan, Anatolia, Turkmenistan. A lot of azerbaijani people know from which tribe they are and 80% of people of azerbaijan who don't know, if they will search the history of their family, they will come to this oghuz turk tribes. The ~15% of Azerbaijan people is not turks, there are a lot of nations in azerbaijan like talishs, tats, kurds (iranians), leks, udins, avars (caucasians) and others. I am azerbaijani turk too, and i am from kengerli tribe. Some of historians think, that this oghuz tribe is pechenegs.

Sorry for my bad english.
 
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Actually in the Ottoman Empire they were speaking Ottoman Turkish. Not people but government and Court. It was heavily effected from Persian and Arabic. For example, as a Anatolian Turk I cannot understand Ottoman Turkish texts but I can understand text from Safavid Persia. Does it make me Azeri or Persian or not Turkish? No.
Even in Turkey, there is many different dialects of Turkish. But official one is Istanbul accent. Differences between Turkey and Azerbaijan Turkish is mostly loan words. But still we can understand each other more than 90%. So how can you call it as different language? It's just different dialects not language.
 
Actually in the Ottoman Empire they were speaking Ottoman Turkish. Not people but government and Court. It was heavily effected from Persian and Arabic. For example, as a Anatolian Turk I cannot understand Ottoman Turkish texts but I can understand text from Safavid Persia. Does it make me Azeri or Persian or not Turkish? No.
Even in Turkey, there is many different dialects of Turkish. But official one is Istanbul accent. Differences between Turkey and Azerbaijan Turkish is mostly loan words. But still we can understand each other more than 90%. So how can you call it as different language? It's just different dialects not language.

Of course we can understand each other, our lanuages is in one oghuz goup of turkic languages. But they are not one language. In azerbaijan exist a lot of dialects too, but they are dialects of azerbaijani turkic. There is the same thing in Turkey. Only one dialect is stands really between these languages - the dialect of Erzurum in Turkey.
Also, i think you can understand the epos "Kitabi Dede Qorqut" in original language. This language is realy origin of our languages, something beween azerbaijani turkic, and anatolian turkic. That was the time of Seljuks.
 
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Rum should be able to form Rome. Because It was one of the goals of Rum. Its name is also from Roman.

Incorrect. The Sultanate of Rum was an early capitalist society entirely dedicated to the distillation and export of liquor, namely Rum.
 
Feudal Theocracy functions as a Monarchy, but with heavy religious focus. This can be adopted by nations who form Persia. While this is a free change with the 1.23 Persia Update, the accompanying Expansion will allow the use of Government Interactions made available for Feudal Theocracies:
 
jake and trin high likelihood don't answer the turkish/arabic culture questions because the one in charge is still johan regardless of his holiness' presence here. they probably asked johan about the cultures and he probably replied with a short answer "no" or more generous "no changes. it is wad" which is enough for ddr and trin i guess :D

@DDRJake

Has the development of Persia been increased, or do you think it is currently realistic?

Historically, Safavid Persia was capable of holding ground against Ottoman Empire and being its eastern archnemesis, eastern equivalent of Austria, and severely beating Turks on many occasions.

All this while often holding not much more ground than this:

maxresdefault.jpg


This area was historicaly enough for Persians to be serious rival for Ottoman Empire and occasionally retake Mesopotamia (it was changing ownership regularly in this period). Not only that but, in fact, Safavid Persia was capable of simultaneously fighting Ottoman Empire and Mughal Empire on two fronts and thriving!

Yet I am not sure at all if in game it'd be possible to simulate. In fact, I think Persian lands are a bit underdeveloped in eu4.

Also, buffing Persia would IMO be a godsend balance change - many people nowadays are calling to nerf Ottomans, or pointing at the fact that there is not a single Muslim country in the world capable of holding their ground against Ottos, which is terrible for playing as everyone (as Ottos - too easy, as Muslims - braindead as the only optimal action is allying Ottos, as other Otto enemies - too hard as they are never weak, unlike other great powers).

What do you think?

Safavid Empire at its biggest extent, please note how dangerously close to core Ottoman lands it was under Shah Abbas, in eu4 something like that never happens.
MswtXe

c'mon safavids were also allied with austria whenever ottoman empire declared war on germans safavids attacked behind them. so there was no lonely pride persia...

@DDRJake
I just quote my own post to add one more thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman–Persian_wars

In the 1514 - 1823 period, Ottoman Empire and Persia waged 10 wars

Of those,
4 were won by Ottomans (of those three in 16th century during Otto golden age, and none victory permanently broke Persia)
3 were won by Persians
3 were indecisive/stalemate

As you can see, Persia in this period has been capable rival to Ottoman Empire, despite being alone, diplomatically isolated and simultaneously being constant rival to powerful Mughal Empire on its eastern flank.

In eu4, if you threw solo Persia holding Persian lands from this period against solo OE holding Ottoman lands from this period, I am afraid OE would usually end up with Teheran in its borders, or win almost every engagement.

I honestly think Persia should be stronger versus OE regarding historical realism reasons, balance and fun gameplay.

how many times persia occupied constantinople? 0
how many times ottoman empire occupied persian capital? 2
who was the fighting with guearilla tactics (running to the mountains and following scorched earth tactics)? persia

<3 Luri, Khaleeji, Mahri culture
:´( No Assyrians
:´( no Copts in Egypt
:´( no Antiochian Greeks and no Cilician Armenians
(y) Alevis in TUR

how about no turks in bulgaria and basically in balkans?


constantinople and izmir... looks like the empire has shared similar fate with their forefathers ere? :D

I'm actually disallowed from leaking if there will be any Persia unit skins in the Persia update's Content pack, aimed at the Persian region.

I mean I'd love to, but we'll just have to wait.

not too hard to guess; persian states + anatolian minors + maybe arabian desert tribes unit packs...

Incorrect. The Sultanate of Rum was an early capitalist society entirely dedicated to the distillation and export of liquor, namely Rum.

lmao.
 
Actually in the Ottoman Empire they were speaking Ottoman Turkish. Not people but government and Court. It was heavily effected from Persian and Arabic. For example, as a Anatolian Turk I cannot understand Ottoman Turkish texts but I can understand text from Safavid Persia. Does it make me Azeri or Persian or not Turkish? No.
Even in Turkey, there is many different dialects of Turkish. But official one is Istanbul accent. Differences between Turkey and Azerbaijan Turkish is mostly loan words. But still we can understand each other more than 90%. So how can you call it as different language? It's just different dialects not language.
That you don't understand old Turkish is because of the alphabet reform and the following attempts in the early years of Turkey. Similar assimilation attempts go for Azerbaijan under Soviet rule. Generally speaking Turkish, Arabic, and Farsi cultures were in a melting pot of Islamic World a couple of centuries ago and there was no cultural distinction amongst them as we understand today. Examples are: Huseyin Bey of Hamid Beylik sent Murad I of Ottomans a tebrikname (congratulatory letter) written in Farsi upon the conquest of Nish in 1377. Despite being a well-known hero of Persian nationalism, Shah Ismail preferred to write most of his poems in Turkish. Babur Shah, the first Mughal emperor and founder of Baburid Dynasty in India spoke Chagatai (an archaic Turkic Language) Learning both Arabic and Farsi as second and third languages was something very common among the Ottoman Sultans. Mameluk Sultans were Turkish speaking rulers of Egypt since the time of Tulunids.The list goes on. If we want to create a realistic culture group for them in terms of Eu4 language it should include areas from Delhi to Istanbul, from Tabriz to Cairo. However, it's not feasible for gameplay reasons, instead make Turkish, Syrian (there's no such thing in eu4 timeframe though) and Egyptian part of Turco-Levant culture group, and put yemeni, omani and bedouin into Arabic culture group, problem solved. Also, the Ottoman finisher idea can be changed from more forcelimit to an extra accepted culture slot. Apart from that, Persia should be renamed as Safavids and Shah Ismail should appear after 1500 via chains of events. Finally, devs should find a solution to never emerging Baburid Empire and give more flavour to Mughals by the upcoming persia update.

Rum should be able to form Rome. Because It was one of the goals of Rum. Its name is also from Roman.
Wrong. Rûm is a geographic term used by Arab geographers. When Muslim Arabs called the Seljuk State in Anatolia "Rûm", Latins and Greeks called it "Turcia" at the time. That's it. After Mongol Invasion of Anatolia, authority of Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm crumbled and several beyliks appeared. In this politically divided and ravaged Anatolia, the former prosperous state of Seljuk Sultanate (especially that of Alaaddin Kayqubat's reign) was remembered like a fairytale and was something both rulers and subjects of these beyliks hungered for. As a result, claiming the legacy of Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm as their rightful heirs and bringing back the old prospering times became a priority for those beyliks among many other issues they had to face. The idea behind restoration of Rûm decision in the upcoming patch is this. But Rûm was just Anatolian affiliate of Great Seljuk Empire and was relatively very small compared to them. The decision for restoration of latter might be a good flavour and an enjoyable challenge.
 
everyone discussing and ranting about cultural issues and religious disputes while all the while missing the most important inaccuracy there is:
They haven't added the Tongan empire
 
That you don't understand old Turkish is because of the alphabet reform and the following attempts in the early years of Turkey.

You're very wrongly said that. Can't read and can't understand is two different things.

I can't read Ottoman Turkish with Arabic alphabet and even if it's written in Latin, I can read but still I don't understand it.

@seriousgigi

You explained many things very well.
 
There seems to be a group who feels Turkish/ottoman culture shouldn't be in the same group as some Arabic nations further away; and there seems to be a group who feels this is just fine.

I don't think there's a correct answer, but I am curious to the reasoning of the devs research team.
 
You're very wrongly said that. Can't read and can't understand is two different things.

I can't read Ottoman Turkish with Arabic alphabet and even if it's written in Latin, I can read but still I don't understand it.
It's because of the difference between official use of language by the State and daily use of language by common folk. Simple as that.
Here's an example of use of language by state officials:
"The Grand Seignior wars for himself, and for himself makes peace. He can trust his own slaves, servants, and subjects. He knows their faith, has experienced their virtue, and can rely upon their fidelity — a virtue long since banished your corner of Europe. If all other Christians tell truth, no reliance is to be had on England ; she buys and sells all mankind. The Ottomans have no connexion with your King nor your country; we never sought for your advice, your interference, or your friendship ; we have no minister, no agency, no correspondence with you; for what reason offer you then to mediate for us with Russia? Why seek ye to serve an empire of Infidels, as ye call us Mussulman? We want not your friendship, aid, or mediation.

Your Vizier, of whom you speak so higlily, must have some project of deception in view, some oppressive scheme to amuse your nation, who, we are told, are credulous, servile, and adorers only of money. Avarice, if we are well informed, is your chief characteristic ; you sell and buy your God — money is your deity ; and all things is commerce with your ministry, with your nation — come ye, then, to sell us to Russia? No, let us bargain for ourselves. Wlien fate has spun out the thread of our good fortune we must yield ; what has been decreed by God and the Prophet of men must and will come to pass. The Ottomans know no finesse ; duplicity and cunning are your Christian morals.

We are not ashamed to be honest, downright, plain and faithful in our state maxims. If we fall in war, we submit to the will of heaven, decreed from the beginning. We have long lived in splendour, the first power on earth, and we glory in having triumphed for ages over Christian infidelity and depravity, mixed with all sorts of vice and hypocrisy. We adore the God of nature and believe in Mahomet. You neither believe in the God you pretend to worship, nor in Ms Son, wliom you call both your God and your Prophet.

What reliance can there be upon so sacrilegious a race? Truth you banish, as you do virtue, from all your conduct and actions with each other. Eead the catalogue of complaints, manifestoes, declarations, and remonstrances of all the Christian Kings, Monarchs, and Emperors, who have lived and warred with each other. You find them all equally blasphemous, equally perfidious, equally cruel, equally unjust, and faithless to their engayements. Did the Turk ever forfeit his promise, word, or honour ? Never ! Did ever a Christian Povjer keep an engageinent hut while it suited his own avarice or ambition ? No ! How, then, do you think we are to trust you, a nation at this moment, if the truth be told, ruled by a perfidious administration without one grain of virtue to guide the machine of State. The Grand Seignior has no public intercourse with your Court — he wants none — he wishes for none. If you wish to remain here as a spy, or, as you term yourself, an ambassador for your Court, you may live with those of other Christian nations, while you demean yourself with propriety, but we want neither your aid by sea or land, nor your council or mediation. I have no order to thank you for your offer, because it is by the Divan deemed officious, nor have I any command to thank you for the offer of your naval assistance, because it is what the Porte never dreamed of admitting into our sea. Wliat you have to do with Eussia we neither know nor care ; our concerns with that Court we mean to finish as suits ourselves and the maxims of our laws and State policy. If you are not the most profhgate Christian nation, as you are charged to be, you are undoubtedly the boldest in presumption and effrontery, in offering to bring such a power as Eussia to terms. Such as you and some other trivial Christians united fancy yourselves equal to command ; we know better, and therefore this effrontery of yours amounts rather to audacity, and to an imbecile dictation, which must render your councils at home mean and contemptible, and your advice abroad unworthy of wisdom or attention from any power, much less the regard of the Porte, which on all occasions wherein its ministers have listened to you have experienced evil either in your designs or in your ignorance.

"His Sublime Highness cannot be too much upon his guard against the attempts and presumption of a nation so perfidious to the interests of its subjects (or colonists), but it is the usual way of Christian Princes to sell and cede over their subjects to each other for money. Every peace made amongst you, as we are well informed, is made favourable to the King that best bribes. The Ottoman Ministry have too long and too often given ear to European councils, and as often as they did so they either were betrayed, sold, or deceived. Away, then, with your interference for the Porte with Eussia, It has been your aim to embroil all mankind, and thereafter profit by your perfidy. We ask not, want not, nor desire your commerce, because our merchants have been sacrificed to your double dealings. You have no religion but gain ; avarice is your only God, and the Christian faith you profess but as a mask for your hypocrisy. We will hear no more from you, therefore you are commanded to make no reply.
(An apology for Mohammed and the Koran John Davenport)
As seen in this letter sent by the Ottoman Grand Vizier to British in 1792, you can observe the difference between the official and daily use of language. It's the matter of using language very formally or very informally. You really don't expect a peasant to use such formal wording and language, do you? Official correspondences used to include numerous words common people didn't use or know in their daily lifes and attempts for simplification of Turkish language and arbitrary elimination of words from language pool from 1930s up until today didn't make this any better for new generations.
 
There seems to be a group who feels Turkish/ottoman culture shouldn't be in the same group as some Arabic nations further away; and there seems to be a group who feels this is just fine.

I don't think there's a correct answer, but I am curious to the reasoning of the devs research team.

I think only Johan feels fine with the setting :D This is the first thing he did after retaking the project lead from Wiz, and nobody from the developers discussed it since.
 
It's because of the difference between official use of language by the State and daily use of language by common folk. Simple as that.
Here's an example of use of language by state officials:
"The Grand Seignior wars for himself, and for himself makes peace. He can trust his own slaves, servants, and subjects. He knows their faith, has experienced their virtue, and can rely upon their fidelity — a virtue long since banished your corner of Europe. If all other Christians tell truth, no reliance is to be had on England ; she buys and sells all mankind. The Ottomans have no connexion with your King nor your country; we never sought for your advice, your interference, or your friendship ; we have no minister, no agency, no correspondence with you; for what reason offer you then to mediate for us with Russia? Why seek ye to serve an empire of Infidels, as ye call us Mussulman? We want not your friendship, aid, or mediation.

Your Vizier, of whom you speak so higlily, must have some project of deception in view, some oppressive scheme to amuse your nation, who, we are told, are credulous, servile, and adorers only of money. Avarice, if we are well informed, is your chief characteristic ; you sell and buy your God — money is your deity ; and all things is commerce with your ministry, with your nation — come ye, then, to sell us to Russia? No, let us bargain for ourselves. Wlien fate has spun out the thread of our good fortune we must yield ; what has been decreed by God and the Prophet of men must and will come to pass. The Ottomans know no finesse ; duplicity and cunning are your Christian morals.

We are not ashamed to be honest, downright, plain and faithful in our state maxims. If we fall in war, we submit to the will of heaven, decreed from the beginning. We have long lived in splendour, the first power on earth, and we glory in having triumphed for ages over Christian infidelity and depravity, mixed with all sorts of vice and hypocrisy. We adore the God of nature and believe in Mahomet. You neither believe in the God you pretend to worship, nor in Ms Son, wliom you call both your God and your Prophet.

What reliance can there be upon so sacrilegious a race? Truth you banish, as you do virtue, from all your conduct and actions with each other. Eead the catalogue of complaints, manifestoes, declarations, and remonstrances of all the Christian Kings, Monarchs, and Emperors, who have lived and warred with each other. You find them all equally blasphemous, equally perfidious, equally cruel, equally unjust, and faithless to their engayements. Did the Turk ever forfeit his promise, word, or honour ? Never ! Did ever a Christian Povjer keep an engageinent hut while it suited his own avarice or ambition ? No ! How, then, do you think we are to trust you, a nation at this moment, if the truth be told, ruled by a perfidious administration without one grain of virtue to guide the machine of State. The Grand Seignior has no public intercourse with your Court — he wants none — he wishes for none. If you wish to remain here as a spy, or, as you term yourself, an ambassador for your Court, you may live with those of other Christian nations, while you demean yourself with propriety, but we want neither your aid by sea or land, nor your council or mediation. I have no order to thank you for your offer, because it is by the Divan deemed officious, nor have I any command to thank you for the offer of your naval assistance, because it is what the Porte never dreamed of admitting into our sea. Wliat you have to do with Eussia we neither know nor care ; our concerns with that Court we mean to finish as suits ourselves and the maxims of our laws and State policy. If you are not the most profhgate Christian nation, as you are charged to be, you are undoubtedly the boldest in presumption and effrontery, in offering to bring such a power as Eussia to terms. Such as you and some other trivial Christians united fancy yourselves equal to command ; we know better, and therefore this effrontery of yours amounts rather to audacity, and to an imbecile dictation, which must render your councils at home mean and contemptible, and your advice abroad unworthy of wisdom or attention from any power, much less the regard of the Porte, which on all occasions wherein its ministers have listened to you have experienced evil either in your designs or in your ignorance.

"His Sublime Highness cannot be too much upon his guard against the attempts and presumption of a nation so perfidious to the interests of its subjects (or colonists), but it is the usual way of Christian Princes to sell and cede over their subjects to each other for money. Every peace made amongst you, as we are well informed, is made favourable to the King that best bribes. The Ottoman Ministry have too long and too often given ear to European councils, and as often as they did so they either were betrayed, sold, or deceived. Away, then, with your interference for the Porte with Eussia, It has been your aim to embroil all mankind, and thereafter profit by your perfidy. We ask not, want not, nor desire your commerce, because our merchants have been sacrificed to your double dealings. You have no religion but gain ; avarice is your only God, and the Christian faith you profess but as a mask for your hypocrisy. We will hear no more from you, therefore you are commanded to make no reply.
(An apology for Mohammed and the Koran John Davenport)
As seen in this letter sent by the Ottoman Grand Vizier to British in 1792, you can observe the difference between the official and daily use of language. It's the matter of using language very formally or very informally. You really don't expect a peasant to use such formal wording and language, do you? Official correspondences used to include numerous words common people didn't use or know in their daily lifes and attempts for simplification of Turkish language and arbitrary elimination of words from language pool from 1930s up until today didn't make this any better for new generations.

Şemsettin Sami (Ottoman writer, lexicographer and encyclopedist) said it best;
A Turk doesn't understand
An Arab doesn't understand
A Persian doesn't understand
So what language is that?

I hope his titles much enough for you to criticize a language! :)
 
I really hope that the next DLC overhauls how culture works. the current culture groups dont really make a lot of sense. AFAIK Turkish is neither linguistically nor culturally very similar to egyptian or yemeni. Same goes for a lot of culture groups ATM. Sami in the Scandinavian group for example, or Karelian in the Russian group. Culture groups seem to be mostly determined by geography instead of the characteristics of the actual culture