Flak 88s of the 18. Luftwaffen maybe too powerful?

[Gilmund]

Overall W/L is 78.6%, and around 250 games played. With the 16th, 100% Win rate for the moment, roughly 15 games played if my memory doesn't fail. Enemy W/R so far has been scattered, I've encountered players with 60% W/R, some of them with 50% and lower, but I definetly had some games with people with more than 200 games played.

After playing a few bunch of games yesterday, I can confirm that Sexton and Priests can be tough to handle, but I used my Hs to counter them. I've seen that against the 3rd AD it's better to modify your air deck with more Henschels (I was previously using 2 cards of 109s of 250 kg bombs). I kept the Ju 88 with 50 kg bombs to suppress AA and big clusters of infantry/SPG/fieldguns.

The tightest game so far was at Coleville 2 v 2 1 v 1 map size against Scots and Guards while teaming up with an Eichenlaub. Phase A was quite a nightmare since 2 88s were not enough to cover all sides and I had to keep them out of sight to prevent artillery fire. The Guards did an infantry push followed by a bunch of Cromwells that managed to gain a foothold in my position. The Scots also pushed hard and kicked back the Eichenlaub. It wasn't until Phase B that we were able to push, however once we did start harassing enemies they were dropping like flies. The 25 pdr did some damage to my artillery but the Artillery Storch and Air Strikes kept them in check for the rest of the game. We sent a horde of 25 infantry units along the frontline and they were pretty much overrun because of the ridicolous amount of Infantry and 88s along the field.They didn't have any dreadful armor to stop the push and the FFs didn't really shine since there was no armor to shoot at, just a several Stuhs at the end of the game

If the map was bigger it would have played in our favor since the 88s wouldnt be packed in one place for the artillery to stun them and our numbers would have played a bigger role. Small size maps you only require a few MGs to hold a position...

EDIT: In one of the games against the 3rd AD. The enemy was using the Sherman Howitzers and using the Fire at Ground ability which we talked about in the Thread. Yes it proves useful since you are shooting the 88s while keeping yourself out of range but requires and intense amount of micro, if the tank goes forward just a few meters it gets instakilled since Vet 2 88s have 85% and above of hit. However, the firing at ground at 1205m and landing a hit when in theory your range is 1200m sharp sounds a bit dumb and unrealistic.

Yeah but you're in the best category of players with 78,6%. Most average players are around 40-55%. I've myself 71% at the moment. You should be able to make a hard time to average players. It doesn't mean the deck is particularly op.
I dot not say 16th is not strong in certain situations but everything is there, it is very situationnal. People has 'overall' learned how to play with their armor against german armor, they'll learn how to play against 16th Luftwaffe with their decks. And if there is some huge nerf of the 88's, i would advocate to give proper panzergrenadiers to the division cause it will suffer too much otherwise...

 

[Gilmund]

16 is one of the best german decks. for once a good 1v1 deck i think for Germany. The income it has is ridiculous. By the end of phase B a standart 80/120 division gets 2500 points. 100/150 for 16 LW give you 3000. 500 points more.

Things about this deck:

-super income absolutely best in game;
-phase A pioneers. Because now Allies do not have an exclusive privelege of super 100m sqauds in phase A.
-maaaaybe 88 AA as an antitank weapon. Because it is available early in A and with elite status.
- minor things. Actually that phase A artillery plane is good. And russian 122 mm guns are very nice. One of the best arties. Also phase B HMG. And a veteran Hs129B3 will kill pretty much all tanks (maybe not the jumbo) with guarantees and from the front. veteran flak38 on tracks is a decent fire support in A.

its the first time i like a german deck in 1v1. But ofc canada or scots are still better.

Yeah but the 88's comes at 130 points (like wolverines), the arty 100 points, and your 30 points unvetted pioneers in phase A like any infantry you have has nothing at 400m but the mg15, i hope you can get them close enough in time or it'll be slaughter, then you got 6 more pioneer in B right but all the left infantry tab is mostly crap lw jager, some fuhrer and some mg34/mg 271 (hmg in b but with slower rate of fire than mg42).
Tell me the lw jager, which is the bulk of your forces is good in any way.
The 20 pts ostruppen from 716th has some mg34 when the 25pts lw jager from 16th has some mg15 with a little 100mm faust.

We are far from the regular panzergrenadier with double mg42.

It is not bad at all in open terrain but try to play with 88's from treeline to treeline, you'll see it hurts.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

People are over stating the artillery of the 16 Luftwaffe, their phase A arty pieces are actually quite inaccurate and have a pitiful HE power of 9. Anytime someone uses mortar or arty carriages I have a really rough time with the 16.

 

[Gilmund]

Frankly, they could have 2 cards of 88s removed in both phase B and C without impacting their competitiveness, but massively decreasing their "laming"-potential in the process.

You would still be able to bring 4 flak 88's in phase B and 6 more in phase C (12 overall instead of 17). Do you think people will say otherwise despite this change ? I doubt it very much. I already take 14 and not 17 in my deck and i tend not to bring them all, neither in b nor in C, i start to think i'll change it a bit.
You have 3x3 cards of 88's in phase C but you canno't bring them or you just have to bring nothing but 88's cause you have 100 points in phase C, not the 150 from phase B.
They mostly complaint cause they have big booms flaks on their frontline and it makes them unable to use any plane. That is pretty new to the game.

 

[Max_Damage]

People are over stating the artillery of the 16 Luftwaffe, their phase A arty pieces are actually quite inaccurate and have a pitiful HE power of 9. Anytime someone uses mortar or arty carriages I have a really rough time with the 16.

Those HE9 guns are pretty worthless for my taste. I try to stay away from using them. Either mortars or 122mm russian guns or offmaps.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

You would still be able to bring 4 flak 88's in phase B and 6 more in phase C (12 overall instead of 17). Do you think people will say otherwise despite this change ? I doubt it very much. I already take 14 and not 17 in my deck and i tend not to bring them all, neither in b nor in C, i start to think i'll change it a bit.
You have 3x3 cards of 88's in phase C but you canno't bring them or you just have to bring nothing but 88's cause you have 100 points in phase C, not the 150 from phase B.
They mostly complaint cause they have big booms flaks on their frontline and it makes them unable to use any plane. That is pretty new to the game.

What are you talking about, you would be able to bring 2 in B and 3 in C, for a total of 7 over the entire match. That's less than the 716th has (yeah, I know they have less vet, but that division also has other workhorses).

 

[Gilmund]

Those HE9 guns are pretty worthless for my taste. I try to stay away from using them. Either mortars or 122mm russian guns or offmaps.

They are very useful against phase A infantry. How do you manage your mortars survivability ? Let' not speak about the 700m 3-men mortar, it has 4HE and disappear quickly. The 6-men 80mm, well i find them costly at 70 points for 10 HE and 1200m. And the 120mm, well again you have no range (1600m) and each one costs 10 points more than one 9HE 2600m arty.
I'd put 30 points more between a 6-men 80mm mortar and one 9HE piece, for 1400m more range as i'd put 30 points more between one 120mm heavy mortar and one sfh 396 with 1000m more range and a little bit more HE (20 to 23).
Mortar is firing two times quickly but you have to keep them alive so i'm curious.

 

[Max_Damage]

They are very useful against phase A infantry. How do you manage your mortars survivability ? Let' not speak about the 700m 3-men mortar, it has 4HE and disappear quickly. The 6-men 80mm, well i find them costly at 70 points for 10 HE and 1200m. And the 120mm, well again you have no range (1600m) and each one costs 10 points more than one 9HE 2600m arty.
I'd put 30 points more between a 6-men 80mm mortar and one 9HE piece, for 1400m more range as i'd put 30 points more between one 120mm heavy mortar and one sfh 396 with 1000m more range and a little bit more HE (20 to 23).
Mortar is firing two times quickly but you have to keep them alive so i'm curious.

i dont manage their survivability. i just try to use them in A to equalize infantry combat vs elite allied squads. mortars aim, reload twice as fast and have a smaller target circle. They really deal 2 or 2.5 times better DPS compared to those 100pt guns. In B i use the 122 mm guns.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

Those HE9 guns are pretty worthless for my taste. I try to stay away from using them. Either mortars or 122mm russian guns or offmaps.

Not to mention rof of 4 for HE and 6 for AP vs 10 rof for pak36 ap. Even cheap mortars can put more HE and shells downrange.

 

[Gilmund]

What are you talking about, you would be able to bring 2 in B and 3 in C, for a total of 7 over the entire match. That's less than the 716th has (yeah, I know they have less vet, but that division also has other workhorses).

There are 17 88's in the deck. 2 cards of 1 in phase A, 6 cards of 2 in phase B, 3 cards of 3 in phase C. If you delete one card in B (you loose two) and one in c (you loose 3), you may bring two in phase A (2x1), 4 in phase B (2x2) and six in phase C (2x3). You allow people to get 12 88's instead of 17.
And as i just said, i myself already have only 14 88's in my deck, as i take 2 flakzwilling in C to kill planes i already loose on of the C card and never bring all my 14's 88's on the field. If you delete one of my cards in B, it'll not change much. I'll probly take the flakzwilling in B instead and i'll more rely on planes.

You may do that but it'll not change the feeling people have. They don't like 88's cause it is like they see panzers in the frontline with the ability to get the sky superiority.

 

[Gilmund]

i dont manage their survivability. i just try to use them in A to equalize infantry combat vs elite allied squads. mortars aim, reload twice as fast and have a smaller target circle. They really deal 2 or 2.5 times better DPS compared to those 100pt guns. In B i use the 122 mm guns.

Well i should try it but i'm mostly not worried about infantry upcoming, my 88's do their job when they appear in open ground. I'm more worried to have something able to kill any kind of enemy arty firing at me. Most times i'm able to target infantry units and enemy mortars or artillery without changing position with my fk's and without huge risk to loose my cannons as i'm way behind my own line. It is valuable, there is only long range enemy arty able to hit me.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

There are 17 88's in the deck. 2 cards of 1 in phase A, 6 cards of 2 in phase B, 3 cards of 3 in phase C. If you delete one card in B (you loose two) and one in c (you loose 3), you may bring two in phase A (2x1), 4 in phase B (2x2) and six in phase C (2x3). You allow people to get 12 88's instead of 17.
And as i just said, i myself already have only 14 88's in my deck, as i take 2 flakzwilling in C to kill planes i already loose on of the C card and never bring all my 14's 88's on the field. If you delete one of my cards in B, it'll not change much. I'll probly take the flakzwilling in B instead and i'll more rely on planes.

You may do that but it'll not change the feeling people have. They don't like 88's cause it is like they see panzers in the frontline with the ability to get the sky superiority.

Who said anything about deleting one per phase?

Frankly, they could have 2 cards of 88s removed in both phase B and C without impacting their competitiveness, but massively decreasing their "laming"-potential in the process.

 

[IS-2]

16 is one of the best german decks. for once a good 1v1 deck i think for Germany. The income it has is ridiculous. By the end of phase B a standart 80/120 division gets 2500 points. 100/150 for 16 LW give you 3000. 500 points more.

Things about this deck:

-super income absolutely best in game;
-phase A pioneers. Because now Allies do not have an exclusive privelege of super 100m sqauds in phase A.
-maaaaybe 88 AA as an antitank weapon. Because it is available early in A and with elite status.
- minor things. Actually that phase A artillery plane is good. And russian 122 mm guns are very nice. One of the best arties. Also phase B HMG. And a veteran Hs129B3 will kill pretty much all tanks (maybe not the jumbo) with guarantees and from the front. veteran flak38 on tracks is a decent fire support in A.

its the first time i like a german deck in 1v1. But ofc canada or scots are still better.

xD

this division is not a threat by its very nature because it is an infantry deck that relies on flak 88 and artillery spam. so your opponent has to be pretty much willing to lose to be defeated by it. there is no way an 8kmh, unarmoured, unconcealable AA gun is going to kill any of my vehicles, and 90% of the time they don't.

all it takes is for the flak 88 to get suppressed and then this deck is toasted for the duration of the flak to get unsuppressed and move back up. or i just chase it with a tank and its dead. only the useless spam of infantry slows me down against them. they have no effective combat power outside of those flak 88s and AT planes.

and ofc like most players you completely disregard phase C. In the last 10 minutes a deck like Lehr can get a +3 hold or higher that is worth +1 for 30 minutes.

the reason why this deck is perceived as so powerful is because the skill floor for it is extremely low, yet against someone who isn't inept it can't really do much IMO. all you have to do with it is attack move, grind and fire pos with artillery. compare this deck to windhund. Windhund can push the enemy back to their deployment zone by the end phase A but requires substantially more micro and intelligent, fast, tactical decisions. you cant trade or grind with it, you have to outplay with it, but once you do you will shut the enemy down extremely hard. with 16th you do not need to make intelligent or fast tactical decisions, you can't outplay smart players with it really, for it to win your enemy has to let it win. it has no offensive tools that can force your hand. so this deck is pretty much relegated to pushing at 8km/h and being at the mercy of good players.

 

[Max_Damage]

Not to mention rof of 4 for HE and 6 for AP vs 10 rof for pak36 ap. Even cheap mortars can put more HE and shells downrange.

I think those russian trophy 76 mm guns in 91.LL and 16. LW are one of the few units that have failed to reach their developer intended roles. They do everything extremely badly.

 

[Gilmund]

Who said anything about deleting one per phase?

I think i'm not able to read crazy thinking properly, my bad. You wanna give them 2 in A, 2 in B and 3 in C. 7 overall. It is insane. You may have six in phase B with 352nd infantry... And this deck has ju87, nebelwerfers, sk18, jagdpanthers, pak88, ig18, and mostly a shitload of good infantry with stosstrup, panzergrenadier with mg34's, pioneers with mg34's and even 10 ersatztruppen to fill the gaps...
What has the 16th ?

 

[Hawk8762]

I guess people don't read disclaimers nor the post chain. 1 v 1s are a different nature. I am not calling a nerf, even the title of the thread shows doubt, there's even a questionmark in there... I suggested options not complaints. And no, I am not the one getting battered by this tactic, the very first sentence says otherwise: 'After playing maybe 10 games with it, in different maps and team sizes. This division has clearly an exploit.'

This post is me giving my point of view of what the division can do in different team scenarios and how you can exploit their unit combination.

You the guy I just played with? Talking about your forum post?
That was the most godawful game ever as far as 88's. Straight toxic.
One, 88's realistically would not have been effective vs high speed low flying aircraft in the first place (which is all the air in the game)
two, 88's should have a MASSIVE time to aim penalty.
three, there needs to be a flat cap on 88's in a battlegroup
Id say MAX 4-6. Past that is excessive and dumb
I'm frankly just going to refuse to play against this battlegroup
Ill kick em out of my lobbies from now on.
Good job Eugen, an entirely broken battlegroup as far as I'm concerned.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

I think i'm not able to read crazy thinking properly, my bad. You wanna give them 2 in A, 2 in B and 3 in C. 7 overall. It is insane. You may have six in phase B with 352nd infantry... And this deck has ju87, nebelwerfers, sk18, jagdpanthers, pak88, ig18, and mostly a shitload of good infantry with stosstrup, panzergrenadier with mg34's, pioneers with mg34's and even 10 ersatztruppen to fill the gaps...
What has the 16th ?

I don't see the problem...
My deck has currently 6 88s in total. I see no reason to waste any slots on more. If your opponent cannot properly deal with your 88s, 6 is more then enough to bring them to their knees.
If your opponent can deal with them, then throwing in more 88s is not going to save you. If they can kill one or two, they can kill eight as well. Might as well not put all your eggs in one basket and use some of the other awesome AA pieces instead.
Of course, your chances of winning in that case will be slim regardless, but that's the crux of this deck; If you loose your 88s, you loose the match.

 

[Gilmund]

I don't see the problem...
My deck has currently 6 88s in total. I see no reason to waste any slots on more. If your opponent cannot properly deal with your 88s, 6 is more then enough to bring them to their knees.
If your opponent can deal with them, then throwing in more 88s is not going to save you. If they can kill one or two, they can kill eight as well. Might as well not put all your eggs in one basket and use some of the other awesome AA pieces instead.
Of course, your chances of winning in that case will be slim regardless, but that's the crux of this deck; If you loose your 88s, you loose the match.

This is precisely the problem, there is nothing else to hold the line. See what i just said about the good units you may have with the 352nd. Do not propose me other flaks when 88's are probly falling due to arty (if not, how are they all falling?). If people stacks 88's, it is because it is the most powerful unit of the deck for the price. When you propose to delete 2/3 of them you just left with nothing in the deck to shine a bit.
You don't kill eight 88's easily, it takes time. If you backup one with another, you may crossfire units approaching, it leaves arty to do the job.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

xD

this division is not a threat by its very nature because it is an infantry deck that relies on flak 88 and artillery spam. so your opponent has to be pretty much willing to lose to be defeated by it. there is no way an 8kmh, unarmoured, unconcealable AA gun is going to kill any of my vehicles, and 90% of the time they don't.

all it takes is for the flak 88 to get suppressed and then this deck is toasted for the duration of the flak to get unsuppressed and move back up. or i just chase it with a tank and its dead. only the useless spam of infantry slows me down against them. they have no effective combat power outside of those flak 88s and AT planes.

and ofc like most players you completely disregard phase C. In the last 10 minutes a deck like Lehr can get a +3 hold or higher that is worth +1 for 30 minutes.

the reason why this deck is perceived as so powerful is because the skill floor for it is extremely low, yet against someone who isn't inept it can't really do much IMO. all you have to do with it is attack move, grind and fire pos with artillery. compare this deck to windhund. Windhund can push the enemy back to their deployment zone by the end phase A but requires substantially more micro and intelligent, fast, tactical decisions. you cant trade or grind with it, you have to outplay with it, but once you do you will shut the enemy down extremely hard. with 16th you do not need to make intelligent or fast tactical decisions, you can't outplay smart players with it really, for it to win your enemy has to let it win. it has no offensive tools that can force your hand. so this deck is pretty much relegated to pushing at 8km/h and being at the mercy of good players.

Exactly this. 16 Luftwaffe gets shut down so easily from arty and someone who knows what they're doing. The division has no ability to contest or push ground outside of it's 88's, you don't need to outright kill them with every artillery hit, suppressing them and reducing their strength is enough to force them back and make them lose ground. The only reason this division is being complained about is because its a cheese meta, it requires probably the least micro of any other division in game. It is far from being overpowered or the most competitive.

 

[xFoXReaper]

Exactly this. 16 Luftwaffe gets shut down so easily from arty and someone who knows what they're doing. The division has no ability to contest or push ground outside of it's 88's, you don't need to outright kill them with every artillery hit, suppressing them and reducing their strength is enough to force them back and make them lose ground. The only reason this division is being complained about is because its a cheese meta, it requires probably the least micro of any other division in game. It is far from being overpowered or the most competitive.

You are drifting away too much from what the actual post is about. I am talking about the 88s, and the setup it has. It is straight up unrealistic to have a gun shoot an airplane instantly and shoot a tank 4 seconds later. On top of that you have an insane amount of them that you can spam. Are we promoting cheese tactics or actual skill?

the reason why this deck is perceived as so powerful is because the skill floor for it is extremely low, yet against someone who isn't inept it can't really do much IMO. all you have to do with it is attack move, grind and fire pos with artillery. compare this deck to windhund. Windhund can push the enemy back to their deployment zone by the end phase A but requires substantially more micro and intelligent, fast, tactical decisions. you cant trade or grind with it, you have to outplay with it, but once you do you will shut the enemy down extremely hard. with 16th you do not need to make intelligent or fast tactical decisions, you can't outplay smart players with it really, for it to win your enemy has to let it win. it has no offensive tools that can force your hand. so this deck is pretty much relegated to pushing at 8km/h and being at the mercy of good players.

You can't outsmart players with it, but you definetly make them drift all their attention and resources to kill a bunch of flaks while the rest of your team harasses them. All the games I have played I would see enemy artillery targetting my Flaks while the infantry and armor of my teammates are plowing through the lines. Allied artillery is costly. The last game I played, the Canadian player spent 1000 points on Sextons so he could delete all my Flaks. In the end, he did kill 80% of them but he didn't score a single kill on a Panther because he didn't have any income to stop it.

Everytime you deploy artillery to kill one of my flaks are less points that you have available to counter a combined arms push (don't argue that you can shoot artillery to tanks because no competent player will keep their tanks stationary and without smoke cover). You win the battle by pushing with infantry and armor...