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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
Here's a thought I had this morning, and I'm not sure if it's been covered in other dev diaries. What if we could close out boarders to China? I can see a sufficiently powerful empire or kingdom doing that if they were unhappy with China, maybe even be subject to an invasion by the emperor to reopen them. I know that;s just turning some of the mechanics around but I kinda like the thought.

It could also lead to some interesting internal politics as well. If any of your vassals are benefiting from the trade along the Silk Road that is a definite opinion penalty, and could even be a possible faction as well. People form a faction to either force the monarch to reopen trade with China, or they could find someone else who will.
 
So yes, a Catholic Emperor with a harem makes sense to me.

Solomon had a hundred wives. ;)

Technically, polygamy is not condemned in the Bible. It is perfectly legal unless you want to be a clergyman (including lay-clergy such as deacons), in which case you can only have one wife.

(The hard part is ensuring your wives don't corrupt you into abandoning your religion. That is what screwed over Solomon. "The pillow talk of a concubine can be very effective.")
 
You are wrong. That is totally historically feasible.

There is nothing unrealistic about a nation converting because of missionaries. Most pagans (except perhaps those subjugated by the Teutonic Order) either converted of their own free will (e.g. Kievan Rus to Orthodoxy and Khazars to Judaism) or were conquered by someone who began instilling programs to promote the non-pagan faith (or they just killed the non-pagans off).

Did you know that both the Khazars and Kievan Rus had an ecumenical summit called to them, where multiple religious representatives were called to pitch their religion to them? Zoroastrians, Muslims, Jews, and Christians (among others) all showed up and debated. The Khazars chose Judaism after the council and the Russians chose Orthodox Christianity.

Keep in mind, the Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khantates BOTH converted to Islam after they were swayed by missionaries. There was at least one Nestorian Khagan of the Mongol Empire.

The Kievan Rus could easily have chosen Islam. The Khazars could have totally chosen Christianity.

You're missing the point. All I meant is that CKII games always go off-the-rails.

As for events that aren't even "historically feasible", CKII also has an Aztec Invasion of Europe, an Anti-Christ, Black Magic, Alchemy, Guns (there's an event that lets you make pistols), and other things as well.
 
You're missing the point. All I meant is that CKII games always go off-the-rails.

As for events that aren't even "historically feasible", CKII also has an Aztec Invasion of Europe, an Anti-Christ, Black Magic, Alchemy, Guns (there's an event that lets you make pistols), and other things as well.

Well the problem with history is we don't know for sure how likely certain events were to happen, because, unlike rolling dice, we can't redo history. So if you are simulating history (especially one where players are allowed to change certain events), it's entirely reasonable to expect that it shouldn't stay on the rails (really depends on how much you believe that the history that actually happened is due to patterns vs random chance AND how much weight you give to ripples and butterfly effects).

That being said, I agree with your sentiment that CK2 is not a history simulator. They include many event aimed more at game play than historical accuracy (you pointed out some yourself). And while I wish they were sometimes more historically feasible, I am glad that they made a game and not a simulator (just my two cents).
 
Also, invader dynasties should be called ie "Yuan", not "Han" or some other random native dynasty name.
There were a number of foreign states and dynasties in China before the Yuan, and they all used "native" territorial-based names like Zhou, Wei, or Liang (there are not one but actually TWO Hans in this list of state names). The Yuan were actually original for using such an abstract name, and the native Ming and foreign Qing followed their lead in that regard.

Anyway, the bottom line is that there is no reason at all why a foreign dynasty wouldn't use the name Han (either 汉 or 韩).
 
If Ck2 can't run properly with China added directly on the map, maybe it's time for an East Asia themed game? Crusader Kings-Celestial Throne?

I'm very much in favor of that but I'm not holding my breath either.

I feel like Sengoku was Paradox's way of testing the waters and while I don't know how well it sold, I know it didn't get DLC or much development after release. To be fair this is partly because Sengoku feels like a test run of CKII but in the recent survey they released Rajas of India was the second least used DLC after Sunset Invasion. Paradox may feel like the market isn't there for an Asian focused game especially if they were making one that would compete with CKII a game they are still working on.
 
-The difficulties of a weak king to control vassals (has just gotten easier and easier...)
-The difficulty of keeping armies of levies in the field (has just gotten easier and easier...)

1. It got super-nerfed so not easier at all. How long youre playing ck2? Few months? Not only conclave make a big deal about council and their ability to control you, but you get that massive -40 bonus to relations with big vassals to not having them in council, making everything even worse. In old times you would just invite best buddies with highest stat in-Europe and use them on your behalf, with vassal having nothing to talk about new-laws in general, other than voting.
2.It got also super-nerfed, right now it's more profitable to build 1 super county with 4 baronies and marshall here, than just really on vassals. And there is hard limit on republics/theocracies vassals, which in the past could (and was) easily absued to have total control.[
 
How long youre playing ck2? Few months?

I dont recall exactly. I think it was five days before release? I think the demo came out seven days before the release version and it took me a couple days to figure out how to screw with the demo files so I wouldn't need to wait for the full game experience.

How long have you been making stupid assumptions about people you disagree with?
 
I find it interesting because Paradox is fleshing out the areas that were the most important regions in this time period, the Middle East by way of Silk Road, and China. Europe and important are mutually exclusive words in the Middle Ages, it's like me saying Sudan is an important region today. It just.....isn't. Great, most of their DLCs pander to customers, fine. But DLCs that provide content to most historically relevant areas of the map? Somehow boring.
 
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This is the first time since Sunset Invasion the DLC just doesn't excite me. Is it just me?
Probably because you don't play in the East. For those who like the play in Central Asia or India or Mongolia etc, this is an amazing DLC. Even though I don't play in those areas of the game I still think this is an amazing step in the right direction because it's a non-mandatory DLC, a DLC that you don't need necessarily to play the game to its fullest, a DLC that's centered on one area of the game and doesn't throw in other things to justify its existence, etc.
 
What are find a little historically accurate is that you're conquering China during the period of stability and China is fiercely difficult to conquer and unified. It can take years if not decades or centuries to become the Son of Heaven. Of course I guess the game tries to get around it by implying that you have to be a pretty big empire yourself to defeat China.
 
Does China's Status change if we Invade it? Can we see something like "Invaded by Tibetans"?

It would be weird to see China facing a full blown invasion and see the Silk Road going on as usual.
 
You guys need to fix the clothing of the people in the first picture (the event picture).

East Asian clothings always feature a "y" shape. NEVER REVERSED. "y" is the yang, the alive; reversed "y" is yim, the dead.
 
You guys need to fix the clothing of the people in the first picture (the event picture).

East Asian clothings always feature a "y" shape. NEVER REVERSED. "y" is the yang, the alive; reversed "y" is yim, the dead.
Nice catch.