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HOI4 Dev Diary - Synthetic Dawn

Hi everyone and welcome back to a new dev diary. We are continuing work on the upcoming 1.5 “Cornflakes” and unannounced expansion. Today we are going to be talking about changes to synthetic refineries and resources.

Synthetic Refineries
Synthetic refineries are a great way to get access to oil and rubber for nations that end up on unfriendly terms with a lot of their neighbours (*cough* Germany *cough*). The technologies for them were however in need of some updating. Most people would only bother with the first to unlock the building unless they were a very small nation (and if so probably not a big consumer of those resources). It also felt unfair that nations that had plenty of one resource and lacked the other would need to do the same investment as someone who lacked both. Even if you had some of each, there was no good way of balancing output and you’d usually end up with a surplus of one or a deficiency in the other. To deal with this we now unlock 3 building levels at once, but the initial output of the refinery is much lower. We have then removed the previous 3 techs giving more levels and replaced them with 8 new techs that increase the output of your chosen resource. That means that if you only need more rubber you only need to research the Rubber Processing techs and can skip the Oil Processing.
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Resources & Infrastructure
This is something we have been wanting to do for a long time. Each level of infrastructure now adds +10% resources in those states. This means that we can have resource amounts that actually grow later in the game. This should give you more reasons to upgrade low infrastructure areas to take advantage of the resources there, and will also allow bombing to impact normal resource gathering and not just refineries. A low infrastructure area with resources is now a great opportunity for expansion.

Together with this change we have improved the construction interface.
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You can now see where resources are located and how much they are impacted. You can also see building slots which makes it so much easier to find the best places to build infrastructure without having to jump between map modes.

Resource mapmode now also indicates effect from infrastructure damage so you can spot potentially important areas for repair:
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We have been rebalancing resource numbers across the world to go with this change. Numbers aren't done yet but I figure I’d spend the rest of the diary showing some areas to explain what we are working with.

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British Malaya and Singapore are nerfed, but are both low infra allowing for a lot of expansion.

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USA has a lot of areas where investing in infrastructure will help them grow into a monster. Texan oil for example.

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As seen above, Japan has several opportunities to improve local resources now.

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France generally got a bit of a resource nerf as it had a lot of very high areas and is also at decent infrastructure level.

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Northern Sweden still has precious tungsten which can be expanded to help Germa...accurately simulate Sweden's complicated role in the war.

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Brazil now has the potential to be a true rubber king (is that even a word?) if invested in. Same goes for some other nations in south america, like tungsten from Bolivia.

This should shake up the resource play a bit we hope. See you all next week for more updates!
 
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If i remember correct my history classes, Brazil was approached by both USA and Nazi Germany for its rubber. We ended up forming a partnership with USA, which helped us build the CSN (a steel industry) in exchange for our rubber and some men to assault Italy.

Our regime at the time was somewhat authoritarian and Getulio kind of flirted with Nazi Germany.
Basically the Brazilian policy at the time was to get as much as it could for the country so used competition between countries to get them to offer more and more.

The 'flirting' with Nazi Germany was under that context, even then in 1938 the party backed by them -the AIB- was banned along with all Nazi political activities and flags, by 1939 Brazil had pretty much sided with the USA and events developed to only make that cooperation stronger.

As for the Brazilian entrance in the war; first Brazil held a strategic position, second it possessed important supplies such as agricultural products and raw material for the United States industries and third to deny Axis access to Latin America.

When the Lend-Lease Act was passed in 1941 several agreements were signed between Brazil and USA for the sake of those imperatives even with the former still aiming to avoid war. And when it finally joined the CSN was only one of the many, many things it received.
 
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Cheers for the DD Podcat, some very interesting additions to the resource game there :D. Also, brilliant DD name - there are many aspects of the HoI4 dev team that I'm a big fan of, and sense of humour is definitely one of them :cool:. Some great looking UI changes as well - am a huge fan of showing available building slots in the ‘build buildings’ map mode, that’ll be a lot less tagging around for me :). Am a big fan of the strategic bombing impact (and the associated UI improvements. What we’ve seen in the DDs so far looks excellent, am looking forward to the next patch/DLC muchly :D.

The improvements to the resource extraction mechanics are definitely welcome, but I do have few thoughts/reservations (noting that I’m not an expert on construction, resource extraction or game design, so take with a few kilos of (mined?) salt):
  • In my experience, Malaya tends to upgrade its infra pretty well without much help (this may be the generic NF tree doing most of the heavily lifting) – so while the base levels have been nerfed, it might still be a bit of an ‘easy win’ for the allies resource-wise (or Japan, or whoever ends up in charge :)). Is there any thought now or in the future to making improving Malayan infrastructure more of a challenge that needs to be achieved, rather than something that just happens (unless someone is actually playing Malaya of course – not knocking the Malayan fanbase :) ).
  • Is infra being pushed to do ‘too much’? It now looks after supply, building cost and resources, which makes upgrading infra even more powerful. One of the things I’ll often do as the US is having a rolling ‘build up to ten infra then fill that state with factories’ thing happening (not least as early on, factories in the US have a heavy penalty which infra doesn’t), and I’ve found it to be a useful strategy as other nations as well, as the infra upgrades done right also help out supply pretty handily. It may work fine, but is there a chance having separate upgrade options for resources might help upgrading infra early not become a bit too much of a go-to option for some nations (as while they won’t need the resources early, if they’re upgrading infra to get around the heavy MIC and CIC penalties, it makes sense to do infra early and then factory hard later)?
  • One thought – have infra cost vary by state type (metro/rural/etc; - sorry, can’t recall the names off the top of my head) and by infra level.
  • When I was reading Ships for Victory, it pointed out that one of the many parts of US industry competing for steel were all the new rubber refineries – in this way, the US had to make choices between how much steel went to new merchant vessels to win the Battle of the Atlantic (as well as tanks and warships/subs), and how much to the refineries (and thence how much extra rubber it would have). I know it’d be a bigger change than what’s currently on the cards and involve all sorts of balancing and testing (and would probably benefit from some changes to how a lack of resources affects various production lines), but is there any thought to building construction (or repair) costing resources in the future? Not suggesting for a second it’s necessary, just throwing ideas around :).
  • While this system is great for existing resources, it still in a way railroads resource distribution based on 1936 levels. A thought on a system that included expanding existing deposits but also take into account that new deposits were found to be developed could go a bit like:
  • The resource display has two numbers – extracted and reserve (the reserve figure could be translucent/greyed-out a bit). The extracted figure is what is extracted, while the reserve can have IC spent on it to extract it in the future. As well as this, each state has a hidden (or not, but I’d go for hidden m’self) ‘undiscovered’ resources figure. Have something that can be spent on looking for resources (PP? A continuous NF) that would ‘discover’ some of these reserves (with perhaps the ongoing chance of some natural ‘discovery’ happening over time, based on chance). This system would mean that although the world could have its historic resource distribution at the start, the way the actual resources are developed would reflect the particular in-game situation (and also allow for things like Finland’s nickel that @Fulmen mentioned). Just a thought in case it helps, as always please ignore if not :).
  • With the greater depth in the ‘building’ game going on, it might help (if it hasn’t happened already) to have some ai_strategies (or similar) to help the AI make sensible decisions about when to build what (probably along with a few more triggers/conditions regarding the nature of states).
No ships. Axe won't care.

Hey, I'm not that one-dimensional. Maybe close though ;). Anyways, ships still need to be built from something :).

Any news on the AI soon?

I may well be proved wrong (after having typed this, I'll bet we get two AI DDs in a row, lol), but my guess would be that the AI needs to be adjusted for the new features, and as the new features probably aren't all done yet, it'd be a bit early to have much to say about AI (although there might be some potential for "we're trying to get things like X and Y happening", but the devs have said previously they prefer to show stuff their fairly confident will be a thing when the patch/DLC releases).

I'm withholding my opinion until Axe & Alex post.
Then I'll know what my opinion is! :p

lololol - you should always think for yourself (and never over-rate my thoughts!), but that's very kind of you :).
 
lololol - you should always think for yourself (and never over-rate my thoughts!), but that's very kind of you :).
Well in that case!
Here are my thoughts. I like today's DD and the previous 2. I think there have been three thus far. I'm not super excited about any one of them however when I combine the three I think this is going somewhere. I don't know where yet however I trust Podcat and the team so I'm feeling very positive at the moment.
I read a post in this thread regarding what the paid content will be. Great question sir!
First, I'm liking the free stuff and the amount of it and if the paid content is bodacious, when this drops it could become a day of infamy for PDX.
 
Was that the most common use of nickel in WW2? Specifically by Germany.
1. Electroplating weapons, it is highly resistant to rusting, so soldiers can carry and maintain their stuff even in bad weather and muddy ground.
2. Due to its rusting resistance, nickel is widely used for stainless steel, so you don’t really need to electroplat stuff anymore.
3. Nickel is a strong permanent magnet, so you can imagine how important it is in manufacturing non-stainless products. (Your headphones have nickel in them too!)
4. (The most important part) Nickel is widely used in superalloys, as other people in this thread mentioned, great surface stability, rustproof, high melting point while not too hard to find, is there anything else to replace nickel in jet (or even regular) engines?
The life of Jumo 004 would be deadly shortened without nickel. :)
 
@podcat Will Axis get a factory slot boost to compansate the more refineries are needed to fullfil the resource needs ? Like concentrated/dispersed giving %25 slots instead of %20. Right now game feels lackluster when it comes to building slots.
 
Very nice changes :D
 
There should be definitely a cap at infrastructure. So building up the complete Himalaya to an infra level 10 area would be stupid

Yes, distance from capital, and terrain should have an impact, while it could be possible to get very high infra in bad terrain areas the cost to build should rise exponentially, perhaps with hard caps depending on the terrain.
 
Yes, distance from capital, and terrain should have an impact, while it could be possible to get very high infra in bad terrain areas the cost to build should rise exponentially, perhaps with hard caps depending on the terrain.

Can't wait to see that 10 infrastructure in the Congo.
 
Can't wait to see that 10 infrastructure in the Congo

Credit to the person(s) who suggested increased infastructure costs for:
  • Type of terrain
  • Size of province
  • Level of surrounding infrastructure
What other characteristics should affect the cost of constructing in the Congo?
 
Credit to the person(s) who suggested increased infastructure costs for:
  • Type of terrain
  • Size of province
  • Level of surrounding infrastructure
What other characteristics should affect the cost of constructing in the Congo?
Colonial status, and perhaps scaling cost like forts are the only two that seem reasonable to me, after all the size of a state is basically unquantifiable, and each state has multiple terrain types.
 
Perhaps infrastructure costs should be affected by neighboring infrastructure, as it becomes easier to bring in materials, etc. This would hinder building infrastructure 10 in random spots, unless there's a huge Singapore-like level of resources to be gained, at which point it may still be worth building.
 
Credit to the person(s) who suggested increased infastructure costs for:
  • Type of terrain
  • Size of province
  • Level of surrounding infrastructure
What other characteristics should affect the cost of constructing in the Congo?

No, I agreed with this suggestion and I hope it's implemented. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
 
Credit to the person(s) who suggested increased infastructure costs for:
  • Type of terrain
What other characteristics should affect the cost of constructing in the Congo?
Since a state can & do have more than one type of terrain this does not work. I know it would mean big changes to HOI IV but infra should be moved to the provincial level, and placement of resources. Also railroads are key to the movement of resources. That way you could have low road infra & high rail (rail needed for SR movement, covers resource levels & supply calculations). So even though you could move a lot of resources by rail in the Congo, it would still be very slow to march, & drive, across.

Strategic Bombing would only effect railroads (stopping fast reinforcement, lowering the supply level & resource level) and not road infra & how fast units can march across a province!
 
+113 units of rubber for the USSR in 1936

It would be historically accurate for the Soviet Union to start the 1936 scenario with synthetic rubber refineries (approximately 113 units worth). But perhaps a wait-and-see approach would the most appropriate. Let's see what the Paradox team has in store for us with "Synthetic Dawn"?

Thanks to Bane5 for the information and the link (see quote immediately below).
The Russian Empire started the research on a possible synthetic replacement for natural rubber. While polybutadiene was invented, the process was far too inefficient. Fast forward a bit Poland and the Soviet Union inherited the research, developed different methods to process it, and thus had been producing fully synthetic rubber since the 1930s.
http://www.2iceshs.cyfronet.pl/2ICESHS_Proceedings/Chapter_10/R-2_Lotysz.pdf

Declassified CIA documents discuss Soviet synthetic rubber production in the 1930s and 1940s.

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Reference: Central Intelligence Agency, "Economic Intelligence Report The Rubber Position of Soviet Bloc" CIA/RR 19 19 January 1953 Table 1, page 4.
  • In 1936, the Soviet Union produced roughly 35,000 metric tons of synthetic rubber, which converts to 34.31 long tons (using 1.02 metric tons per 1.00 long ton).
  • In 1936, the world production of natural rubber was estimated to be 884,000 long tons.
  • Thus, the Soviet Union's synthetic rubber production represented 34.31/884 of world production
  • 3.885% of world natural rubber production.
  • Alternatively, 34.31/ (34.31+884) = 3.736% of total rubber production (not including Polish, US, German, etc synthetic rubber production )
  • As of 10/4/2017, the HoI4 wiki states that there are 2922 units of rubber in HoI4.
  • So, for the 1936 scenario, it would be historically consistent to depict the USSR as having 3.885% x 2922 units of rubber = 113 units of synthetic rubber at the start of the 1936 game.
This assumes several things, to include the assumption that 1936 Soviet synthetic rubber was as good a quality product as natural rubber. There were reports of dirt and nails being found in the Soviet synthetic rubber and that it was not as durable as the German synthetic rubber.
 
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after all the size of a state is basically unquantifiable

The size of a state might be estimated.

The defines profess the following:

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Calculate the number of pixels per state.
Multiply the number of pixels by 7.114 x 7.114 = 50.06 km**2

For simplicity's sake, each pixel is 50 square km.

To make it even more "simple", don't even convert to km's...base the size on the number of pixels .

(but, counting the number of pixels per state might not be possible be tricky. But I know that the Paradox team could do it!).
 
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