Stellaris Dev Diary #88 - 1.8 Post-Release Support | Page 9

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

that actually seems like a novel idea, being able to quickly swap between sectors in the overview might make me use it again.

Bluegrass Geek · Oct 6, 2017

CrowScape said:
Not really, as the primary limiter is how quickly a planet gets to 10 pops and gets the planetary capital. At that point, you can queue up all remaining buildings and never need to look at it again. That is not affected by planet size.

Sounds like you have a very specific playstyle, and just want the game to conform to your playstyle.

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

Still seriously, organize your stuff by sector now, I use the sector portion of the overview to quickly get to stuff. So much better now that sector stuff has changed. it's ALMOST a drag and drop interface. and you don't need to keep that planet in your core worlds while it developes.

John Forseti · Oct 6, 2017

Wiz said:
You can already opt into the 1.8.1 beta patch to get most of these fixes. 1.8.2 will be released when we're done testing it.

Just out of curiosity, why does 1.8.1(beta) release as 1.8.2 instead of 1.8.1(official) ?

CrowScape · Oct 6, 2017

Bluegrass Geek said:
Sounds like you have a very specific playstyle, and just want the game to conform to your playstyle.

I actually want the game to conform to as many playstyles as possible. I'm seeing opinion on this change running 2:1 against from how it was, which tells me this is likely catering to fewer playstyles than it used to. That does not mean that I think the old way was perfect and should not be changed at all. I've wanted increased player control of the Outliner since the beginning. It's the Devs that are tailoring the Outliner to a specific playstyle, and one that is increasingly "more selective."

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

John Forseti said:
Just out of curiosity, why does 1.8.1(beta) release as 1.8.2 instead of 1.8.1(official) ?

because likely in-house they still just have them labeled as separate version numbers.

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

CrowScape said:
I actually want the game to conform to as many playstyles as possible. I'm seeing opinion on this change running 2:1 against from how it was, which tells me this is likely catering to fewer playstyles than it used to. That does not mean that I think the old way was perfect and should not be changed at all. I've wanted increased player control of the Outliner since the beginning. It's the Devs that are tailoring the Outliner to a specific playstyle, and one that is increasingly "more selective."

people are complaining about it because it's broken, thus the new system is negatively influenced by the change.

to be clear, the previous outliner wasn't organized at all, it just grabbed your core sectors going down an unorganized queue. They're trying to actually organize how planets are displayed

CrowScape · Oct 6, 2017

Riftwalker said:
people are complaining about it because it's broken, thus the new system is negatively influenced by the change.

There are some complaining that it is broken. That is a different matter from those who are talking about the change itself. There, it's 2:1 people complaining because distance to capital has no use for them. That it is also broken doesn't enter into it. Either way, it does not work because sorting by geography is useless for them.

Riftwalker said:
to be clear, the previous outliner wasn't organized at all

No, it was organized by last colonized.

Bluegrass Geek · Oct 6, 2017

CrowScape said:
I actually want the game to conform to as many playstyles as possible. I'm seeing opinion on this change running 2:1 against from how it was, which tells me this is likely catering to fewer playstyles than it used to.

No, it just means "something changed."

It's the Devs that are tailoring the Outliner to a specific playstyle, and one that is increasingly "more selective."

Explain what playstyle that is, then. Because I don't see how the "distance from capital" is specific to a certain playstyle.

CrowScape · Oct 6, 2017

Bluegrass Geek said:
Explain what playstyle that is, then. Because I don't see how the "distance from capital" is specific to a certain playstyle.

That's a very good question, because I don't even see the use for that kind of sorting; it might as well be random for all the good it does. There are a few people that seem to like it, though, so whatever their playstyle is. Ask them.

Vovchigus · Oct 6, 2017

What about problems with UI Scaling? Can you please check?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-over-is-not-affected-by-ui-scaling.1046780/

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

CrowScape said:
There are some complaining that it is broken. That is a different matter from those who are talking about the change itself. There, it's 2:1 people complaining because distance to capital has no use for them. That it is also broken doesn't enter into it. Either way, it does not work because sorting by geography is useless for them.

No, it was organized by last colonized.

consider this, how many people come here to say the outliner is working, that the outliner isn't organizing how they want it, and that the outliner shouldn't organize by capital distance?
you're in the 2nd group, no one is in the first, and very few are in the third, most people are in the quiet fourth group where they have no strong opinion.

it was organized by "the last thing put in the queue is the last thing i get to"

it only appeared to organize by date, but in reality that was an 'unprocessed' organization. it's like saying that people that are in line were organized by the ticket booth to better serve the concert. people just ARE in line because that's how they got there.

KopiG · Oct 6, 2017

@Wiz Is the Strike Craft Launch bug fixed? It is still present in 1.8.1 meaning if you field a ton of strike crafts, they start moving AWAY from the enemy not towards it. This bug has been in since like 1.0

CrowScape · Oct 6, 2017

Riftwalker said:
consider this, how many people come here to say the outliner is working, that the outliner isn't organizing how they want it, and that the outliner shouldn't organize by capital distance?

"Here" where? The forum, or just this thread?

And you still don't read. (I'm in the third group)

As the group of people who don't care, great. They don't care. Let's not care about them not caring.

Riftwalker said:
it was organized by "the last thing put in the queue is the last thing i get to"

Wait, I thought it wasn't organized.

Riftwalker said:
it only appeared to organize by date, but in reality that was an 'unprocessed' organization. it's like saying that people that are in line were organized by the ticket booth to better serve the concert. people just ARE in line because that's how they got there.

So the ticket line isn't organized by the order of when people came, it's organized by the order of... when... people... came...

Nippleworthy · Oct 6, 2017

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

CrowScape said:
"Here" where? The forum, or just this thread?

And you still don't read. (I'm in the third group)

As the group of people who don't care, great. They don't care. Let's not care about them not caring.

Wait, I thought it wasn't organized.

So the ticket line isn't organized by the order of when people came, it's organized by the order of... when... people... came...

you're not though, you explicitly said that the outliner wasn't useful to you, you then went on about how you used the outliner. This has little to do with how the outliner should actually be organized.

and organization claims that they were organized, put in a specific order, etc. except there was no filter applied to it, any perceived organization is merely perceived. the ticket line isn't organized by the order that people came it, it's just that people happen to be aligned in that order. if the way a line was formed was changed, so to would it's order, for instance if instead it was a stack, the order would be reversed. To be clear, this means if something occasionally bumped a planet down on your 'secret' list of planets you own, probably to optimize cycling through them for various checks, then your outliner would be changed as well.

Thorin · Oct 6, 2017

On planet organization:
The old one (colonization date/removal from sector date) had some use, your actual core systems floated upward and ended on the top, while the temporary colonies on the bottom. Not perfect, but had some use.
The current one (random/whatever) has no use, needs to go.
The next one (Distance from capital, could be anything else, like lenght of name, or rgb code of the middle pop), has little use, but at least has some concept, so better than the current one, but much worse than the old one.

What should be: player choice, simple drag and drop in the order and everyone could get what they want.

CrowScape · Oct 6, 2017

Riftwalker said:
you're not though, you explicitly said that the outliner wasn't useful to you, you then went on about how you used the outliner. This has little to do with how the outliner should actually be organized.

How I use the outliner currently is just there to show that the current organization has a function, as opposed to the change, which has no function. (Note: You have never offered a function for the change in its defense. You have conceded this point by your deafening silence.) It does not mean that the existing function is the ideal function, just that the proposed change is worse. Hence "the outliner shouldn't organize by capital distance," which is the third group, not the second.

Riftwalker said:
and organization claims that they were organized, put in a specific order, etc. except there was no filter applied to it, any perceived organization is merely perceived.

Ah. So there is no organization to say a cell, because there was no filter applied to generate cell walls. What organization is there is merely perceived, not real. Kinda ironic, given the shared etymology of "organize," "organ," and "organelle."

Yeah, no. Organization doesn't work that way.

Riftwalker said:
the ticket line isn't organized by the order that people came it, it's just that people happen to be aligned in that order.

Obviously spoken by someone who has never stepped outside of a tiny Western bubble so he can take line organization for granted.

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

Thorin said:
What should be: player choice, simple drag and drop in the order and everyone could get what they want.

i just wish i could perhaps actually a sort to the field. Personal organization isn't really that useful unless i can group them. (these are my mineral planets)

if i could instead sort by mineral output, etc.

the old system currently still has no use, as you can now sector the planet, and have it build up and never have it use your core worlds at all.

Riftwalker · Oct 6, 2017

How I use the outliner currently is just there to show that the current organization has a function, as opposed to the change, which has no function. (Note: You have never offered a function for the change in its defense. You have conceded this point by your deafening silence.) It does not mean that the existing function is the ideal function, just that the proposed change is worse. Hence "the outliner shouldn't organize by capital distance," which is the third group, not the second.

the plural of anecdote isn't data. I am not required to put forth a different solution, when the argument you have given is "the old way is better to me". my categories are about motivation, you are motivated by it not conforming to your playstyle. you're arguments were:

I'm seeing opinion on this change running 2:1 against from how it was

an appeal to popularity

Not really, as the primary limiter is how quickly a planet gets to 10 pops and gets the planetary capital.

This is a fair point, but is out dated, it's suboptimal to have new worlds in your core system anymore.

You don't use the outliner, so I fail to see why you care to offer your opinion on it.

an ad hominem, note: i'm smart enough to not think this is an insult, but my relation to the overview has no relation to how correct/incorrect my arguments are.

If i've missed arguments for how this outliner is useful, and why it needs to be changed back point them out for me, Thank you, but you haven't actually put forward anything that i really need to rebute. I do not need to explain why the system needs to be changed, since it already has, you must explain why it needs to be changed back.

Ah. So there is no organization to say a cell, because there was no filter applied to generate cell walls. What organization is there is merely perceived, not real. Kinda ironic, given the shared etymology of "organize," "organ," and "organelle."
Yeah, no. Organization doesn't work that way.
Obviously spoken by someone who has never stepped outside of a tiny Western bubble so he can take line organization for granted.

ho boy, old latin being used on a bastardization of german, french and latin. to somehow be made to used to justify that there is no distinction between sorting a list by date and people just putting the newest planet on the bottom of the list.

This isn't a semantics debate, so i'll refer to the former as purposefully organized, and the later as incidentally organized.

The Devs are attempting to add purposeful organization and remove incidental organization. I posit that this is a good change as it creates framework for further development.

note: this is my claim, this is where i have my burden of proof that you can challenge.

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