the panzer 4 is well overdue for a buff

[IronHat]

it is not a matter of performance difference between 76mm and the kwk 40.

the 75mm on the stug 4 and jagdpanzer 4 are basically identical to the kwk 40 used on the panzer 4. The only notable difference being that the panzer 4 used a 2.5X optics compared to the 5x/2.5x on the stug's and jagdpanzer4.

 

[Nordhammer]

Hmm PDFs worked...

it is not a matter of performance difference between 76mm and the kwk 40.

the 75mm on the stug 4 and jagdpanzer 4 are basically identical to the kwk 40 used on the panzer 4. The only notable difference being that the panzer 4 used a 2.5X optics compared to the 5x/2.5x on the stug's and jagdpanzer4.

Pff one more post,am like a kid in a candy store atm lol.

But has far as the range...all to do with gameplay & balance.

Hmm or do folks think for example the IG 18 was a dedicated direct fire and limited to 1,000 meters range.

but playing forums wars/info dump is part and parcel for a well a wargame...Check out Combat Missions lol you'll see this same thread played out oh so many years ago

(everyone knows how to "fix" what is "wrong',well from their point of view lol)
((hmm looks like the Giants are going to beat the Broncos..go figure))

 

[Thonar]

it is not a matter of performance difference between 76mm and the kwk 40.

the 75mm on the stug 4 and jagdpanzer 4 are basically identical to the kwk 40 used on the panzer 4. The only notable difference being that the panzer 4 used a 2.5X optics compared to the 5x/2.5x on the stug's and jagdpanzer4.

And Panther D got 1200m and only 2.5x optics.
The optic point was debunked long ago.

 

[IronHat]

And Panther D got 1200m and only 2.5x optics.
The optic point was debunked long ago.

give a mouse some cookie...

the game have a lot of rule with "exception". Like how towed howizter are not to be allowed above 105mm except for the 122mm used by the german, or how the rule doesn't apply to SPG so just about every axis armored division have the hummel or lorraine (150mm) and the sole allied division with the m12 is the recently added 4AD.

or how if the optic rules doesn't apply, why does the mg42 still have 200m range advantage over the vicker?

If the panzer needs to be the next exception, then let it be. Like how the pak 40 is also an exception. If you're going to discard the rule, don't just establish a new one just to make it include the kwk 40 as well. Let the m3 75mm have 1200m range as well.

 

[Jeff_Ahl]

I think giving the panzer 4 1200m range is a bad idea. The Sherman and Panzer 4 were very comparable tanks, the panzer 4 being the more dated tank but having better crews.
Giving the panzer 4 1200m range would put the Sherman in a historically unfair place, and I think it would be imbalanced. Right now, IMO, the panzer is the better tank for tank v tank battles. People are seemingly complaining because the 8 armor leaves it vulnerable to all AT guns. Well, it was realistically. Neither the Sherman nor the Panzer 4 are really meant for taking hits in the first place.
The panzer fits the bill of building a large tank mass, vs a few bigger tanks.

Ok...are we playing the same game? Pz4 vs M4A3(75), M4A3(75) have a faster aim time and turret traverse, which make a big difference. Pz4 is not the better tank when facing a Sherman V or M4A3(75) in most situations. You have to have two Pz4 or ambush the Sherman to have the odds on your side.

Shermans are way better to fight infantry and infantry support weapons higher HE values, and have one of three machine gun is a HMG that have 800m combat range. Pz4 have 3 machin guns that fires 600m.

 

[DoubleDan68]

I have a different idea. Since the 75mm was inaccurate, had low penetration, and had a poor muzzle velocity, why not set it to 800m

 

[Ulatersk]

My point was each test gave different numbers.Think Tanker posted two different tests,his first is an incomplete test of the KwK 40 (and could it be the British test and not the Aberdeen test?)

There was a comparison test in 1942 between the L43 L48 and the L46(Pak 40)
Using different cartridges(with various amounts of propellants) it was reported that the L48 attained 810 m/s firing off PzGr 39 rounds...

But the following is a report on the L43's capabilities circa 1943.

At the normal production ammount of propellant in cartridges, roughly 750 m/s should apply to L/43 nad 48, and 790 to L/46.

 

[Karlburg]

I have a different idea. Since the 75mm was inaccurate, had low penetration, and had a poor muzzle velocity, why not set it to 800m

Would you propose doing this for all the guns less than the 75mm?

 

[Think Tanker]

Would you propose doing this for all the guns less than the 75mm?

500m for 37/40mm guns and 600m for 50mm guns
Then, of course, we would have to re-scale essentially the entire game so we have 200m for .30 Cals, 350m for .50 Cals, 400m for 20mms

Or, we could realize that, like in Wargame, there is a lower-limit for the range of cannons (1925m for a 90mm KE-slinger, anyone?)
But it is indeed fun to sometimes fantasize about a completely different meta.

 

[IronHat]

Well he is using US War Department sources, so as for the 7.5 cm Kwk 40/Stu. K 40/Pak 39.

He should answer back with-

APCBC f/s 2300
HE f/s 1800
HC f/s 1475
AP40 f/s 3248
Smoke f/s 1771

As for the 7.5 cm KwK 42/Stu K. 42

APCBC f/s 3068
HE 2,300
AP40 3674

8.8 cm KwK 43 /Pak 43/1 thru 4.../Stu. K 43 (Tiger II,Nashorn,Ferdi,JagdPanther)
APCBC 3280
HE 2460
HC 1968
AP40 3705

panther tanks optics have three scales. one for the pzgr 39, one for the pzgr 40, and one for mg34/spgr. The mg34/spgr scale is shared as well with the panzer 4. The optics on the stug and hetzer are different but work along the same logic.

this would suggest that despite the difference in MV, the HE round on the panther and panzer have similar ballistic property as to being able to use the mg34 as sort of a range finger.

 

[Nordhammer]

panther tanks optics have three scales. one for the pzgr 39, one for the pzgr 40, and one for mg34/spgr. The mg34/spgr scale is shared as well with the panzer 4. The optics on the stug and hetzer are different but work along the same logic.

this would suggest that despite the difference in MV, the HE round on the panther and panzer have similar ballistic property as to being able to use the mg34 as sort of a range finger.

Largest differences were the cartridges of course ,the following may help or not(scroll down to page 396 for a start) Edit: the Sprgr. 34 is on page 417 with the Sprgr. 42 on page 411

 

[Ulatersk]

his would suggest that despite the difference in MV, the HE round on the panther and panzer have similar ballistic property as to being able to use the mg34 as sort of a range finger.

He round on Panther is fired at 700 m/s muzzle velocity, while on Panzer IV it is 550.