HOI4 Dev Diary - Airplanes and Lootboxes

[Axe99]

It seems as if you arbitrarily take some content out of patches and put a price tag on it.

While I'm sure the decision is anything but arbitrary, it feels like this argument is a bit backwards. There needs to be a charged-for DLC to create cashflow to pay for people that continue to develop the game. Therefore DLC is a given. Then the team need to balance which elements that they've been working on work best in DLC and which in a patch, how much should be in the DLC relative to the patch, and a bunch of other things I'll be unaware of or have forgotten. It's important to remember there'd be no air supply at all without the DLC - whether it was in it or not in it - and if, say, air supply gets shifted to the patch then maybe chain of command needs to go into the DLC, and everyone's making the same argument but over a different feature.

The other thing to keep in mind is that (as others have mentioned) HoI4 is not HoI3. It's not like the devs are slowly re-releasing HoI3 piece by piece, but rather that new features need to be coded in for HoI4. Air supply would be paid for one way or another, whether it's in the base price of the game, where another feature is left out so there's time to get air supply in, or the game has a higher price, or air supply is included for 'no extra price', but we're paying for chain of command instead (which of course means the DLC content is priced to cover the development of the DLC plus patch). Ie, the resources required to develop it need to be paid for, one way or another.

 

[Wraith11B]

@Axe99 how many times do you think we'll need to reiterate this point? I'm guessing that it never ends.

 

[Duke_Dave]

@Axe99 how many times do you think we'll need to reiterate this point? I'm guessing that it never ends.

A discussion that can never be won, but always has to be fought.
Maybe PDX should just stop free patches, beyond bugfixing...

 

[him_15]

Great improvement for the air. I also hope there will at least be some change for the naval UI and warfare as well.

 

[Kristian2]

@Axe99 how many times do you think we'll need to reiterate this point? I'm guessing that it never ends.

No matter how many times you reiterate an invalid point it won't make it any less invalid. HOI 4 was a clearly unfinished, bare bones game upon release. The least they owe us is to develop the rest of the game. I can be patient and wait more than a year, but making us pay extra for it is pushing it. I understand that they need to cover the cost of finishing the development of HOI 4, but it doesn't have to be in the form of paid patches. I've already provided an example of what I think is DLC content done right (the alternative history route for Germany involving overthrowing Hitler in 1936). Also, it seems that one of the favourite mantras of the "paradox can do no wrong" crowd is that this is HOI 4, not HOI 3. This statement contains the root of the problem. Last time I checked, four is a greater number than three, meaning that it's a sequel, which means that it's supposed to be an improvement, and yet its improvements seem to include cutting vital features, some of which are implemented more than a year after release, and some of them you have to pay extra for. A game featuring paratrooper operations but no air supply is just absurd, especially when we already had air supply in a previous game. HOI 4 is a downgrade in many respects, and that's why it's a shady move to charge extra to have the lacking aspects of HOI 4 upgraded into being on par with the *previous* game by bringing back its features.

 

[pvt.conners]

Last time I checked, four is a greater number than three, meaning that it's a sequel, which means that it's supposed to be an improvement, and yet its improvements seem to include cutting vital features, some of which are implemented more than a year after release, and some of them you have to pay extra for.

The idea that air supply was ever vital in the previous HoI versions is laughable.
Take it from me, air supply was extremely limited in it's use. I still feel an oncoming aneurysm anytime I even think of the supply system in HoI3 (HoI2's was far more functional and actually made sense somewhat).

HOI 4 is a downgrade in many respects, and that's why it's a shady move to charge extra to have the lacking aspects of HOI 4 upgraded into being on par with the *previous* game by bringing back its features.

Downgrades in regards to what?
The core features of air, land, naval warfare and production are far more sophisticated than in previous versions.
Really the only areas where previous HoI versions "shine" by comparison are CoC (which was a mixed bag), politics (which was for the most part pointless) and certain features of the Logistics system.
In many other respects HoI4 is a leap forward compared to it's predecessors. I rarely go back to the previous entries in the franchise for this reason.

 

[GSP Jr]

No matter how many times you reiterate an invalid point it won't make it any less invalid. HOI 4 was a clearly unfinished, bare bones game upon release. The least they owe us is to develop the rest of the game. I can be patient and wait more than a year, but making us pay extra for it is pushing it. I understand that they need to cover the cost of finishing the development of HOI 4, but it doesn't have to be in the form of paid patches. I've already provided an example of what I think is DLC content done right (the alternative history route for Germany involving overthrowing Hitler in 1936). Also, it seems that one of the favourite mantras of the "paradox can do no wrong" crowd is that this is HOI 4, not HOI 3. This statement contains the root of the problem. Last time I checked, four is a greater number than three, meaning that it's a sequel, which means that it's supposed to be an improvement, and yet its improvements seem to include cutting vital features, some of which are implemented more than a year after release, and some of them you have to pay extra for. A game featuring paratrooper operations but no air supply is just absurd, especially when we already had air supply in a previous game. HOI 4 is a downgrade in many respects, and that's why it's a shady move to charge extra to have the lacking aspects of HOI 4 upgraded into being on par with the *previous* game by bringing back its features.

Lets cut to the bottom line - Paradox needs income if you want them to employ developers and games. Any games. Period.
If you think HOI III was so great, play it and be happy.
Don't like HOI IV, think it incomplete, a rip off, etc etc DON"T PLAY.
But for goodness sake quit crying like a two year old that is up past nap time.

 

[Duke_Dave]

It means it is a new iteration. It is planned to be in the long run a better game. But vanilla HoI4 is just like Vanilla HoI3 (also richer in content and in better and working condition).
Development costs money doesn't matter wheter DLC content or even bugfixing. That money has to be earned and therefore DLC needs to be so juiciy that it sells
It is not about fair or justice or anything it is about ressources required and basically anything is fair game to gain these ressources.

 

[Kristian2]

Lets cut to the bottom line - Paradox needs income if you want them to employ developers and games. Any games. Period.

I already addressed this. "...it doesn't have to be in the form of paid patches. I've already provided an example of what I think is DLC content done right (the alternative history route for Germany involving overthrowing Hitler in 1936)." So I don't object to DLC altogether. I just object to charging for content that I expected to be in the base game since launch over a year ago.

If you think HOI III was so great, play it and be happy.
Don't like HOI IV, think it incomplete, a rip off, etc etc DON"T PLAY.

I've played so much HOI 3 I've grown sick of it, and there are things that HOI 4 improves upon. I see a lot of potential in HOI 4, paradox just made plenty of bad design decisions in addition to rushing the game and failed to seize on much of that potential. It's because of this potential that I still keep waiting for HOI 4 to get better with patches, DLC and mods. That's why I care about HOI 4, and because I care about it, I feel the need to provide criticism when I have it. You don't like it? Well, to put it frankly, tough shit. It should be no skin off your nose.

But for goodness sake quit crying like a two year old that is up past nap time.

From where I'm standing you're the one being emotional and juvenile for resorting to insults.

 

[halvorni]

(...) I rather naively bought the FM edition, despite the many warnings from wiser heads, but the first two portions contained virtually nothing of any use to me - the worthwhile stuff has all been free. I'm happy to support the game, but I also want value for money.

You got this nice icon in your profile, didn't you?

 

[Wraith11B]

@Kristian2, I've got to say: HoI4 is a completely different game than the previous HoIs were. HoI1-3 follow a distinct evolutionary pattern, remaining mostly the same while at the same time bringing new elements in to try and make the feel remain true to the ideal. HoI4 is revolutionary in that regard in that they clearly started from a completely new base idea (even going so far as to delay production when things just didn't seem to be working out!), and altering most things with completely different forms of coding processing and algorithms. The code from HoI3 is older, probably doesn't go at all into the HoI4 code, and so they have to decide how much effort goes into that particular branch of work.

Think about it this way: your vision of how air supply should have been in the game is contingent upon supply functioning as it did in HoI3. Does supply work the same way in this game? Am I manipulating a slider in order to produce supply like I am in HoI3?

 

[Fast00000000000]

I really like this new idea and the plans for the new German focus tree, however I am really hoping that Japan gets a new focus tree as well

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

I much prefer the new air system to the original but I am so bad at remembering to relocate air wings so this is a very welcome change.

Air supply sounds like a great addition as well. Looking forward to this update.

 

[JerkyJerry]

@Axe99 how many times do you think we'll need to reiterate this point? I'm guessing that it never ends.

Just like the bi-weekly "should I buy the game?" threads.
@Axe99 is there an internet patience award? Level headed and cool each and every time. I just don't know how you do it. I wrote an entirely different post but did not hit 'post reply' as I just knew it was going to get me at the least a warning. So I deleted that post and instead I said "Axe99" ten times softly to myself and took a deep breath.

 

[Gort11]

I already addressed this. "...it doesn't have to be in the form of paid patches. I've already provided an example of what I think is DLC content done right (the alternative history route for Germany involving overthrowing Hitler in 1936)." So I don't object to DLC altogether. I just object to charging for content that I expected to be in the base game since launch over a year ago.

OK, but what do you then say to the guy who thinks air supply should be a paid feature while the alternate path for Germany should be free? There's nothing to say his way is wrong and your way is right.

At the end of the day, if you got your way and all of the features you want are free patches, why would you buy the DLC?

 

[Kadanz]

Just like the bi-weekly "should I buy the game?" threads.
@Axe99 is there an internet patience award? Level headed and cool each and every time. I just don't know how you do it. I wrote an entirely different post but did not hit 'post reply' as I just knew it was going to get me at the least a warning. So I deleted that post and instead I said "Axe99" ten times softly to myself and took a deep breath.

It's good to get it out of your system by furiously writing it and then delete it without actually posting it. Very therapeutic I must say.

 

[JerkyJerry]

It's good to get it out of your system by furiously writing it and then delete it without actually posting it. Very therapeutic I must say.

Amen

 

[Kristian2]

OK, but what do you then say to the guy who thinks air supply should be a paid feature while the alternate path for Germany should be free?

Feel free to try to find me anyone actually saying this so that I could tell him directly, but I doubt you'd have much success. Anyway, I would probably say something along the lines of how air supply is a vital feature in a game that involves conducting paratrooper operations. No-one in their right mind would have dropped a significant number of forces behind enemy lines without intending to provide air supply for them. Not to mention when forces would get cut off from supply, an attempt was made to supply them from the air, assuming the enemy didn't have overwhelming air superiority and transport planes were available. Without it a portrayal of WWII era warfare on a grand strategy level is incomplete. An alternate history path involving overthrowing Hitler, on the other hand, is far from a core element.

At the end of the day, if you got your way and all of the features you want are free patches, why would you buy the DLC?

The features I want I was expecting since day one, not in patches, but that's beside the point. If paradox can't sell DLC without making them the kinds of things one would expect to have as part of the base experience, they're just not trying hard enough. But they have. The DLC featuring the alternate history branch for Germany is a good example of content that goes beyond the original scope of the game, providing nice bonus content, rather than something that's expected from the base game.

 

[RELee]

I wrote an entirely different post but did not hit 'post reply' as I just knew it was going to get me at the least a warning. So I deleted that post

If you only knew how many times a week I do this.

 

[Axe99]

Feel free to try to find me anyone actually saying this so that I could tell him directly, but I doubt you'd have much success. Anyway, I would probably say something along the lines of how air supply is a vital feature in a game that involves conducting paratrooper operations. No-one in their right mind would have dropped a significant number of forces behind enemy lines without intending to provide air supply for them. Not to mention when forces would get cut off from supply, an attempt was made to supply them from the air, assuming the enemy didn't have overwhelming air superiority and transport planes were available. Without it a portrayal of WWII era warfare on a grand strategy level is incomplete. An alternate history path involving overthrowing Hitler, on the other hand, is far from a core element.

It's actually fairly common for people to saying things along the lines of "leave the focus trees to modders, give me gameplay mechanics in the DLC", although I can't think of someone that meets the specific example we're talking about here.

From what I've read on the forums (and elsewhere), it's pretty clear that the range of opinions of what should and shouldn't be part of the DLC, or what should or shouldn't be considered 'core' to a WW2-era GSG are quite broad. There's nothing wrong at all with you thinking that air supply is a core element, but as this thread shows, there are others who wouldn't agree. It's also reasonable to argue that all the core mechanics should be in patches rather than DLC, but again this is a subjective position - there's no 'rule of game development over time' that says 'core strategic mechanics' should be in free patches only (indeed, it'd be pretty easy to make the argument that core strategic mechanics should be DLC only).

My point in all of this is that, while there's nothing wrong with the position you're taking (air supply is a core mechanic, and core mechanics should be in the free patch), it's a subjective, contestable position, and it's similarly not inappropriate to take the line that either air supply is not a core mechanic (as what is 'core' and not at the GSG level is anything but settled - as I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are people that argue fuel is not core to a WW2-era GSG) or that it's fine to include core mechanics in DLC.

From my angle, your first post was completely reasonable (a little 'dramatic' starting with 'oh wow', but hardly the most dramatic thing posted around here ), you noted your disagreement with the policy and what you expected. I as a rule don't put red 'X's on anything, but even if I was a red-X demon, I wouldn't have disagreed with your point because your point was "I think this and I'm disappointed", which I think is fine. No-one is going to agree with what the devs do all the time (and I'm quite sure not all of the devs agree on particular things either). It was only at your second post, when you noted that:

The least they owe us is to develop the rest of the game. I can be patient and wait more than a year, but making us pay extra for it is pushing it. I understand that they need to cover the cost of finishing the development of HOI 4, but it doesn't have to be in the form of paid patches.

Other than for members of the season pass in the Field Marshal pack, the devs don't owe us anything specific. They never claimed air suppy was in the game at launch, nor that it would be added later (iirc, Podcat said it would be cool if it could be, and that they wanted it to be in and ran out of time/resources/similar - but no commitment was made). We were given very good information on what was in the base game of HoI4 (what we got for our however-much-we-paid-for-it-in-the-currency-of-your-choice), and we were left to make an informed decision (and far, far more informed than for most games) on whether we should buy it or not.

As someone (dodgy memory playing up here, I think @SeekTruthFromFx but I could have my wires crossed here - sorry if I've got this wrong) well argued, Podcat did say that post-release, they would continue to develop the game and expand on things through free patches, so there is a good case to be made that we should expect features to continue to crop up in free patches (which they do - chain of command in the free patch is pretty damn good, imo), but at no point did they say "all core mechanics would be in free patches" or "air supply would be in a free patch" - they (wisely, imo) kept their options open as to how they'd go about this.

As per your first post, though, there's nothing wrong at all from what I can see in making the case that you think that air supply should be in the free patch, or noting you're disappointed it's not - just keep in mind it's a subjective position and there's also nothing wrong with others arguing otherwise. As always, if I've messed up the case/logic/anything else, by all means set me straight .

Just like the bi-weekly "should I buy the game?" threads.
@Axe99 is there an internet patience award? Level headed and cool each and every time. I just don't know how you do it. I wrote an entirely different post but did not hit 'post reply' as I just knew it was going to get me at the least a warning. So I deleted that post and instead I said "Axe99" ten times softly to myself and took a deep breath.

Haha, the key is to have a dodgy memory - hard to stay angry if you can't remember what you're angry about . There's a great Grampa Simpson snippet to this effect out there somewhere . That said, I've written a few posts and then thought better of it as well, nothing wrong with that, and I've had my moments when I could have been more patient .