I have almost 200 games in 1v1 ranked. Half for 3fsj and half for 4th. 9th panzer is no match for 4th. or rangers. or scotts. but especially against 4th. so, it's pretty meh.
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I have almost 200 games in 1v1 ranked. Half for 3fsj and half for 4th. 9th panzer is no match for 4th. or rangers. or scotts. but especially against 4th. so, it's pretty meh.
^^^ you speak the truth. A 95% suppressed or almost suppressed 88 with 2-3 stars can still shoot with great accuracy. It's annoying that's for sure
Little hard to take forest against pioneers with just riflemen don't ya think? Please tell me how in that game i would provide fire support. Since after i fire with any artillery your YOLO 6+ FK288's would stun it.
How could i help out teammate on other end when your FK288's and elite 88's were taking ground on my end? Just leave it be? That strategy makes no sense.
Maybe mix rifles with engineers? Sherman DD or M7 DD is great firesupport, mortars, howitzers etc. And forrest is yours. Or half of it. You friend gain you +1 for all phace A, and only when I started to deploy units to the our right we gain +1 fot forrest which I took from you. Your 6 howitzers + m12 from 4th only destroyed 4 my FK and single FLAK. Do you realize how useless they were?
Show me a game where a Sherman or a M7 DD could provide fire support in that forest with everything happening in the middle. It cannot be done. Yes i spammed howizters, but what you fail to mention is you spammed (since u said i killed at least 4) FK288's onto the field. With that arty spam coming down on my lines, a mortar here, arty piece there (like your telling me to do) would be next to useless, since anything i fire would be answered by your FK2888 spam.
2ID is handicapped against 16th.Luft being played by any competent player. You have 2600 range arty, against 2 (max amount you can bring in phase A) 107mm mortars with 2400 range. Nothing else in phase A comes close to your range advantage. Phase B is where arty comes into play with 2ID, but using this game as an example, you were already spamming FK288's by phase B with 3 star 88's 1 shooting anything that moves or instant pin. So all you had to do was sit and bank points, while anything i used to counter your FK288's would get instantly spammed/surpressed. Hence you sat on your arty shield and there was literally nothing (support weapon wise) i could do to counter it.
Moral of this argument.... play 4AD and spam B26's while you have no answer for it.
I wouldn't say it's OP in top level games like 4AD, but in casual team games playing as 16LW is practically like hitting a win button. It's pure cancer as it is and will drive players away from the game unless it's dealt with. Hopefully the devs realize this.
Personally, I don't play against the Germans in casual games now if they have a 16LW player unless I have good players on my team. I join the German team or leave for another game. The average player simply can't stop 16LW, and I don't want to have to fight along the entire front every game.
Hell, it's a pain for me as well since manual fire is buggy and often the Sherman 105 starts moving forward instead of firing... I don't want to have an aneurysm at age 29, so I would rather do without frustrating micromanagement like that.
Personally, I don't play against the Germans in casual games now if they have a 16LW player unless I have good players on my team. I join the German team or leave for another game. The average player simply can't stop 16LW, and I don't want to have to fight along the entire front every game.
Hell, it's a pain for me as well since manual fire is buggy and often the Sherman 105 starts moving forward instead of firing... I don't want to have an aneurysm at age 29, so I would rather do without frustrating micromanagement like that.
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A strong AA tab that still has tons of elite AA to shut down enemy air support, 88s for multirole AA/AT duty, more CAS than you could shake a stick at, and pioneers for days.
But if that really did leave them weak- and the lack of stars isn't a huge nerf because 88s are still very accurate and just become more vulnerable to suppression- I'd be totally open to them getting more buffs elsewhere, too. I don't want the Luftwaffe weaker, I just want the stupid 88-centric design of the division revised.
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Give us some replay. Cause you seem to talk about teamplay, teamplay is all about the doings of all players together to start with. If the luftwaffe player has some time to help ally it's cause he is not pressured enough on his own side...
Yeah but you may extend this to all decks. How many players will know how to react to alied double cromwell's, when you have huge skill differences it's always cancer.
The fire positionning isn't harder than managing 1200/1000m of armor nor to engage german panzers in close combat to get +ap.
16th luftwaffe is very weak in A and should meet some open ground deck with tools to deal with it, i don't understand the inability to beat him in A.
How to properly counter the 88's of the 16th LW and completely shut down the division:
Put smokes in front of 88's, they're so slow it will take them ages to actually relocate to a position and be able to fire.
Use arty and mortars, not to kill the 88's, but to stun them instead and move up supporting vehicles like the M4A3 105 which can and will kill the 88's
Use fire position for 1200m vehicles and fire right in front of the 88 outside of its maximum range
The dual-purpose arty guns of the 16th LW are actually quite mediocre at absolute best and will guaranteed get beat out by any allied arty piece in a counter arty standoff. Without its 88's the 16th LW has absolutely no ability to hold or contest open ground, a combination of the tactics above and good micro will completely shut down a 16th LW player. The division is not in need of a nerf, just a bit of tweaking, perhaps a bit less 88's overall, but other than that its fine.
Put smokes in front of 88's, they're so slow it will take them ages to actually relocate to a position and be able to fire.
Use arty and mortars, not to kill the 88's, but to stun them instead and move up supporting vehicles like the M4A3 105 which can and will kill the 88's
Use fire position for 1200m vehicles and fire right in front of the 88 outside of its maximum range
The dual-purpose arty guns of the 16th LW are actually quite mediocre at absolute best and will guaranteed get beat out by any allied arty piece in a counter arty standoff. Without its 88's the 16th LW has absolutely no ability to hold or contest open ground, a combination of the tactics above and good micro will completely shut down a 16th LW player. The division is not in need of a nerf, just a bit of tweaking, perhaps a bit less 88's overall, but other than that its fine.
I'm kind of in agreement with the opinion that the fire at 5m thing smells a bit dubious to me- elite 88s are really hard to shut down via suppression. Even if you do stun them, they have a tendency to wake up at inopportune moments and once they're up they're insta-aim field pieces with monster accuracy. It's also not without risk to the support vehicle.
Even if it is a good counter, though... when it comes to RTS design philosophy YMMV but IMHO if janky little micro tricks like that are how you're supposed to counter the unit, the unit should just be re-designed to be more cleanly countered by specific units or tactics instead. There's a lot more interesting micro you can have a player do than wrestling with the UI because their units are too stupid to fight properly.
Smoke's useful, but that's micro intensive, ammunition limited, and it's really easy for that to go south and for you to lose a bunch of points because there was a gap in the smoke or because the smoke timed out at an inconvenient moment. Insta-aim only makes this worse, because if you do give the 88 the shot, it'll take it before you have a chance to back off even if you're watching the battle like a hawk.
Artillery works, but if you don't push forward with vehicles to finish the job it's going to be a very slow grind to keep them suppressed and eventually kill them. If you do push forward, the same caveat about the 88 waking up at an inconvenient moment apply as with the 1200m vehicle situation. It's still, by far, the best way to reliably deal with the 88 and a pretty good counter.
It's also worth noting the 4th, French, Scots, and Commandos don't get even get phase A artillery that outranges the 88s, though, which can be a big problem on wide open maps. At least you can do the 5m trick with a little bit more wiggle room due to artillery dispersion, although for everyone but the 4th that means putting your mortars on the front line with a bit "counter-battery me!" sign above them and the 4th's mortar truck is an AP shell insta-kill waiting to happen.
Of course, all that said, I still am of the opinion that the Luftwaffe isn't really OP, overall. I think the division should be a little bit less 88-centric because it'll make for funner matches, and if that means they should be buffed elsewhere to keep them competitive then we should do that too. All of the noise about how weak the 88 is, OTOH, is a bit much. The superior player with the right tactic can counter just about anything, but just because you can come up with a scenario that counters something doesn't mean that unit is rubbish.
Even if it is a good counter, though... when it comes to RTS design philosophy YMMV but IMHO if janky little micro tricks like that are how you're supposed to counter the unit, the unit should just be re-designed to be more cleanly countered by specific units or tactics instead. There's a lot more interesting micro you can have a player do than wrestling with the UI because their units are too stupid to fight properly.
Smoke's useful, but that's micro intensive, ammunition limited, and it's really easy for that to go south and for you to lose a bunch of points because there was a gap in the smoke or because the smoke timed out at an inconvenient moment. Insta-aim only makes this worse, because if you do give the 88 the shot, it'll take it before you have a chance to back off even if you're watching the battle like a hawk.
Artillery works, but if you don't push forward with vehicles to finish the job it's going to be a very slow grind to keep them suppressed and eventually kill them. If you do push forward, the same caveat about the 88 waking up at an inconvenient moment apply as with the 1200m vehicle situation. It's still, by far, the best way to reliably deal with the 88 and a pretty good counter.
It's also worth noting the 4th, French, Scots, and Commandos don't get even get phase A artillery that outranges the 88s, though, which can be a big problem on wide open maps. At least you can do the 5m trick with a little bit more wiggle room due to artillery dispersion, although for everyone but the 4th that means putting your mortars on the front line with a bit "counter-battery me!" sign above them and the 4th's mortar truck is an AP shell insta-kill waiting to happen.
Of course, all that said, I still am of the opinion that the Luftwaffe isn't really OP, overall. I think the division should be a little bit less 88-centric because it'll make for funner matches, and if that means they should be buffed elsewhere to keep them competitive then we should do that too. All of the noise about how weak the 88 is, OTOH, is a bit much. The superior player with the right tactic can counter just about anything, but just because you can come up with a scenario that counters something doesn't mean that unit is rubbish.
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No. You don't need much skill to play 16LW well, so It's a special case. It's similar to playing Lehr in 10v10 on 4v4 maps. You just use attack move and fall back with your 88s when they are pinned, and that's it.
And the problem is not in 1v1, but in casual team games. 16LW requires so little micro that it can cover the entire front with 88s. If I have good teammates it's not any problem, but the average player will lose badly to 16LW.
To make matters worse fire position is broken like I said. It's easier to micromanage tank vs tank combat.
The part about arty in your topic is nonsense, sorry. Yes, those howitzers are very average by themselves, but they are also anti-tank guns, and on top of that, they also inflict HE damage. The phase A and phase B income allows you to redeem them all at the very beginning of phase B, and being covered by flak 88 these cannons will take down everything alive. Furthermore, when your opponent will try to counter fire them, he'll immediately get some 2600 meters shells in his face. The strength of this division is in these cannons, not in flak 88. Flak 88 is just the cherry on the cake.
Have you ever used these cannons ? Cause they are unable to relocate quickly and are very fragile. When you use arty vehicles to fire at them (and most decks have some), you'll double move relocate and hit these cannons from different locations with ease. It's the same with all mounted arty versus ground arty. Do not keep your arty vehicles in fixed locations.
To panick these mounted vehicles quickly, the FK288's will have to focus them in numbers, meaning it'll leave your ground troops away from fk288's artillery shells in the meantime.
Like relocate 88's and fire artillery shells isn't micro and moving infantry or tanks and using offmaps is... Yeah sure!
You canno't say something is op when you compare peers and apples, it's not really an argument. Like i said, everything happens to be that in casual games with casual players. Average Lehr is always smashed in A against very good allied players and has difficulties to make his ground back, actually the 12thSS is more difficult to handle with the beute firefly, so i don't get your point here. A 16LW who have time to put 88's all around a 3vs3/4vs4 map is really something happening when you or your allies don't do enough pressure on him. If your games have sitting ducks players defending and waiting for things to happen, it's really more an issue when you play allies cause you canno't do it most times against any german decks.
The average player will loose badly to any player outmachting him badly, with any deck.
I feel you should all play 16th LW yourself against other veterans from time to time and see how you'll succeed to manage it cause this deck is very situationnal and these 88's are so slow to handle and to save when shit is falling around. Imo when i play 16th LW nowadays, i meet players able to fix me, yeah they rarely make a lot of ground against me but neither am i. Pretty much the same when i play others decks against good players, the frontline isn't moving much.
If the 16th Luftwaffe players put 88's in his frontline, you even able to fix these 88's with arty without fear of counter battery.
I feel we should always come back to the poor start of a 16th Luftwaffe player, usually he takes the two only 88's he has in the entire phase A, it worths 260 points, his recons cost 40 points, his fk288 costs 100 points, he barely have enough points to use anything else, one or two crap LW jager infantry. How the hell is people unable to fix him i wonder, cause he sure canno't make ground with that.
You just being dishonest about it, stop leaving 16th luftwaffe players building their strength.
And how do you fix your line with infantry and 88's if you use points to buy FK288's and redeem them all ?
And how you may keep them alive from arty if you use them as at guns ? Their at guns capabilities are 1200m not 2600m. Spread arty used at guns in the frontline canno't fire everywhere at once (only very very good players will use arty used at at guns end be able to fire them all at the same target when they are spread all around their treelines, it is hell to manage...)
Your statement makes no sense at all.
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I have 100/150 income rate at A/B. I can bought fk, flaks and inf to fix lines. to be clear, what is your game mode?
You have 150 per tick in B, you may buy one FK288's and two Leute jagers with it, if you buy one 88 it is 130 points. You canno't do everything at once. The magic 16th Luftwaffe able to buy everything is just magic thinking. Focus heavily in bringing your 4 FK288's in A and bringing your 6 other FK288's in B to have a big artillery force is just possible cause you ain't pressured. You said it yourself in this post, you were able to give support to your ally cause you stopped bringing any unit on your own part of the front once B started. Cause your direct enemy was holding his efforts to fight you. Everything is there, not in some magic power from 16th luftwaffe.
Give me time to buy 5-6 firefly's with Guard Armoured and allow me to push with them and i'm unstoppable.
Fireflys are very fragil. Even with 5 you will not be unstoppable. Hell with 1 KT and 2 75mm AT guns flanking it can kill a Firefly push in its tracks. I can also argue that 9th. Panzer Phase A rushes or even Lehr Puma rushes are borderline unstoppable if the player using it is playing right. There is only so much ground you can cover and 3 star Pumas are very fast and hard to kill with 1 star phase A tanks.
Gonzo is a prime example of this. When I'm playing him (he usually goes lehr) I have to be very micro intensive to kill 1 of his pumas. I have to bait his with a lesser point tank or unit and flank with another. That guy likes to hide behind shit all the time!!! LOL
Now back on topic. Like I said before in the scenario in discussion, I was playing 2ID and it seems to me they are not well balanced towards 16th. Luft. I'm talking in mid to high level play. 2ID has only 2 107mm mortars in phase A to combat FK2888s. Even thought 2888s only have 9HE they can still stun a mortar crew very quickly. If that happens I'm at the mercy of his units in phase A, b/c im either spending 100 pts on another mortar (if I did not bring in 2 at start) while his phase A 100 income is moving along. M7 DD is really the only unit you have to combat the 88 after that and with both having 1200m range, the 88 will win 9/10 times due to veterancy. You lose that its pretty much game over. No matter what you do.
Then what about using your mortars to smoke and flow infantry instead of firing shells, you're fighting with infantry deck after all. Like it has been said, you can desactive 88's with smoke in front of them, they take time to move and are not able to fire anymore. One opening with two M7 DDS just kill instantly the only two 88's he can get in phase A. If you face 16th Luftwaffe it is one of the first thing you have to bring on the field. Then it's gg.