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Have you noticed that panther G cancelled the front hull machine gun and made the gun shield not totally rounded. That make it +1 FAV than panther D.
"G cancelled the front hull machine gun " Sorry I do not understand,sounds like you'e describing a Ausf D'.What source are you using?
I think "made the gun shield not totally rounded" refers to the later Ausf G's "chin"..which I discussed and pointed out Ausf Gs with the "chin" are beyond the games timeframe.
My point originally was simple- game balance(and fun) take precedence over historical reality.
Armor values(just one of many) are fudged for the sake of game play,
I think that 1200m range for Panzer IVs would make sense, but I don't like the idea of different ranges for AP and HE. Sure, we already have some of that in SD, but it's better to keep it simple. For balance, I think it would be a better idea to just give the Panzer IVs a price buff (maybe $115-$120 for ausf.G and ausf.J and $130 for ausf.H).
the panzer 4 have no niche. the abundance of okay/decent 1200m HE on german tank make the panzer 4 even more obsolete. The HE on the jp4 is have the exact same strength as the HE used on the panzer4, except it goes out to 1200m.
allied 75mm tank have a niche because their tank destroyer have weak HE and the howitzer tank have no-anti tank capabiliy. The sherman/etc is the only US tank that can do both.
and historically the german got decent HE on their high velocity gun by underloading the propellant for their HE round.(IE, not using the high velocity)
if the reasoning to buff the range on panzer 4 AP is due to velocity, then the same logic should apply to HE round as well. HE rounds on guns like the pak40, stuk40 should have their range nerfed.
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What's make the panzerIV obsolete is his average ap/armor ratio power in phase B when allied have direct and better counters to it (210 fireflys), when a bit more expensive tiger or panther is harder to destroy and always a better choice when you can wait.
The issue in regard of their current price is that you canno't really stack panzer IV (what is the allied way to play tanks) and expect tremendous results regarding their prices. 2 panzers IV together are not really equal to 1 panther.
And it should be that way considering you canno't give prices buffs to panzers IV as german armored divisions also have the best tanks in the game.
Cheap average tanks and other units are in numbers for allies, germans have bigger and rare panzers with deadly effect at max range.
If you start to change this you have to reconsider the prices of units and the points in each phase from each decks to create balance.
That's why some divisions could have Pz4 on A (1x1 card, even unvetted).
When I have a possibility, I get Pz4J. 125 is pretty democratic price and you got nice tank with good HE and AP. Slow turret is minor issue and doesn't cost 15 pts of difference comparing with Pz4H. On close ranges Shermans have an advantage in any cases.
Actually, Pz4s were such tanks for Germans - massed cheap and average tank IRL.
No they can't. Allied armored divisions are build to shine in phase A and german armored divisions are build to shine in phase C cause they are stronger in phase C. If you disable this balance you've to rethink all the decks mechanics working together. In this case give proper anti PZ4 in A to allied divisions. If yo uwant decks to do both things, you standardise them all which is bad gameplay.
It's not just about "reality", it's about making an interesting game with different mechanics threats and weaknesses per phase with the deck you have chosen. If all decks look alike in the way they should be played, this game will be very poor.
3AD and GA rely on their fireflys/76mm's with side shots and mistakes from their opponents, a good panther player will rekt you. These decks are not strong in C. Actually i play GA a lot, GA is very good in A with its support cromwells, in C it is a struggle against any armored decks.
If these decks have KTs only. Against others GA and 3AD have pretty good chances.
You're wrong. In team games OPness of KTs and panzer divisions decreases even more, especially if you meant REAL teamplay.
Anyway, inferiority of Pz4 is real thing and needs to be addressed somehow.
No. The side of the map you've to handle is often less large in teamplay than in 1vs1 and you pick open ground parts of it. You're maybe more able to kill a KT in team but it is for a long time a pain in the ass preventing you to make ground. You have to wait to ambush it one way or another. In this time the german player creates 1200m no-go zones where he can do everything he wants and you've to stay behind cover and wait for the right moment.
Good german players will stay within their 1200m and avoid leaving their sides unprotected. You counting on your opponent mistakes and your own ability to react when the time is right, you'll delay and build some force to attack on multiples sides. In this time you doing shit and your opponent is moving and killing everything reaches its guns.
It is not impossible but it is not easy to kill and you've to manage multiple units at once to make it work. Plus you'll maybe have the help of your allies but germans too will have multiple players bringing panthers in teamplay. Good luck against 2-3 stacked panthers.
It's why allies definitely make ground in A and definitely tend to loose some ground in C.
The ability to attack move panthers/kts at max range with no counters is also why people is always feeling germans are op when they throw their allied tanks at max range against them with no results.
Inferiority of PZ4 is precisely related to the superiority of other german tanks on the field within the same decks. German armor decks canno't have everything at once considering they have the best tanks in C. Actually the weakness of PzIV isn't that bad. Sure it prevents you to really use this unit effectively but it forces you to rely on less but powerful tanks and use them wisely.
It's hard to find some kind of solution in that matter if you wanna keep balance between decks.
Price buff ? No, 140 points is very decent for 14AP and 8 armor. M4A2 cost 130 with 11AP/10 armor, M4A1 has 11/9 for the same price, Abrams 11/10 for 145, sherman V 11/11 for 135, sherman III 11/10 for 150. All these tanks from B have 1000m range as the PzIV, so you canno't give 1200m to the PanzerIv in addition to tigers on the field. Except maybe the tank destroyer M10A1 from 2DB (13AP 8 armor for 125) with 1200m and obviously the hellcats (13ap, 4 armor for 110) you would have no real threat to it at max range when the german armor are already able to bring tigers and panthers in B.
Not all german Tank divisions are made to shine in Late game, just take windhund and 9th panzer. hell even the 12th get their unicorn firefly. Still this doesnt kill the balance. Phase a Pz4 wouldnt either, as they are not better than the shermans and cromwells all allied tank divisions get. The division I would give a pz 4 in a would be the windhund, as they already have strong pz . III so it wouldnt give them a huge buff but more flavour, esp. since their pz. IV dont come with vet, so takeing one of them over a card of multible pz. III with veterancy, would be more a trade off than a buff. I think in the 9th panzer you might be right as they might be too strong in combo with the cheap spam tanks and you already have marders as high ap tank destroyers.
For the 21. a one star panzer 4 g in a would be good I think as the division still lacks a bit in the early game and the pz4 g just have 6 frontal armor so it wouldnt be a total monster in a.
Everything except 10v10 on 4v4 maps you can beat a pz. lehr into oblivion with just a bit of combined arms and than they stuck in c and dont get anywhere, Airpower of the allies holds kts back quite easily and if that doesnt help there will be m12s or sextons to do the job.
With air superiority? Easy stuff. Stunned panthers will go nowhere and be killed easily by swarms of fireflies, m4a3(76), wolverines etc.
Not so long as you think. Use smoke, use numerous planes. There is no need to wait for a possibility to hit side armor, panicked tiger will GIVE you this possibility several times.
Disagreed. For 140 pts you get vulnerability to AT-guns on A and 1000 m range.
All M4s have great anti-infantry capability, weak AA-gun and don't afraid any german AT-guns on A.
Sherman III is just one more example of inadequate pricing in SD. That's why Pancerna is pretty bad division and rarely chosen. Canadian too, but at least they have other nice toys.
Really?
M4A1 - you can have 2 on A as 3rd AD.
Abrams comes on A too.
Canadians have great RAM II on A too (2 card with 1).
Guards have good Cromwell VII on A and can have 6 (!) of them on A in theory.
Indianhead also have 3 Shermans on A.
Late game it is not that easy to make planes effective. If you're able to bring plane trains, you sure not have many ground units to keep terrain. And your enemy has some AA he has build too. Any decent player will keep some AA behind panzers.
I don't get your point. What i just said is the PzIV should have these vulnerabilities as tanks from allied side also have 1000m until phase B, except rare case of tank destroyer in 2DB and with hellcats in phase A. So you canno't give extra range or power to PzIV considering its counters don't have this extra range or power and considering german armored decks also have the best stuff late game. Which would give them a very strong phase A and a very strong phase C.
And yeah sure all these allied tanks come in A as i said the allied decks shine in A, i have just taken the ones in B cause the PzIV comes in B actually. In B most of the allied tanks still have 1000m, the ones not having 1000m anymore cost more than 140 PzIV, they cost around 180-210 points (fireflys, 76mm, etc).
I wouldn't say 9th panzer is strong in phase C. 9th panzer only have tigers in C, nothing more. Windhund got his panthers only in phase C with no tigers/panthers in B, which creates huge possibilities to allies to crush this div until late B. Actually this deck is very tricky to play, you're pretty much screwed if you dot not make your flamenwerfers work to surrender enemy tanks.
PzIV are not better in their current state ant it sohuld stay that way, but i hear speaking here about price buffs/armor buffs or ap buffs, which would make them too strong related to others imo. Give new PZIV cards to some decks is different, i've nothing to say about that, i like having plenty of choices. And their 1000m and low armor value make them killable.
Any german armored division is weak in 1vs1, pretty much cause they lack infantry and their inability to make their vehicles work in treelines. Their avantages like 1200m and use of halftracks are often reduced to nothing. In teamplay i disagree it is that easy with players around the same level. You speak about costly investments of multiple planes/arty to kill one 380 Kt. If i spend 500-600 points to kill something, i can too kill whatever i want, but how much time does that take and how much have i gained from it is the real question.
If you wanna buff these german armored decks, give them infantry availability or more infantry slots. It is the real issue about these decks, not panzer IV's. Lehr is very weak against anything in A cause the deck only has two panzergrens per card in A with 6 infantry card slots max for the 3 phases and obviously a max number of 36 cards.
Same goes in opposite way - if you spent too much pts on tanks you won't have decent AA to stop plane trains. Some AA is just not enough.
My point was that Pz4 is pretty weak as 'B' tank. If you have better tanks there are no pts to choose Pz4 for 140 pts - with 8 front armor and 1000 m range. If it costs 125-130 then it would be different story.
We talk here not about german armored divisions, but about pz4.
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