HOI4 Dev Diary - Acclimatization and Special Forces

[bERt0r]

Infantry can hold mountains in game, they can defend and assault rivers. Mountaineers and Marines are simply better at it. If I have 3 mountain tiles to defend and 1 mountaineer division and 2 infantry divisions, then I have a choice to make. If I have all infantry or all mountaineer there is no decision.

The % is fair game to be argued over. In my opinion whatever the figure is, the goal should be that even with max SF battalions, one should still need to make choices. If i have 20 tiles of mountains and hills with no research I can put mountaineers in 6 tiles (lets say). With max research i shouldnt have access to 20 mountaineer divisions. I should still need to plug a few infantry divisions in there.

Maybe the new general progression system will address the competitive MP scenes' complaints (maybe their traits make up for the loss of marines everywhere or mountaineers). maybe 40w divisions will be harder to make due to slower access to recruitable population. We can all still pray paradox takes another look at fort balance

Im much more concerned with resources and their affect on balance than I am with a cap on SF battalions. If current 1936 resource levels stand, the Decisive Action system and the effect of infra on resources is going to dramatically shift the distribution of resources. From a realism standpoint the changes in resources are potentially worrysome.

Since you like quotas so much, how a bout a cap for tank divisions or airplanes. Surely not everyone is able to command a tank or fly an airplane, only the above average people right?

 

[bERt0r]

They dont. Spec Ops has higher recovery rate and higher org +30% breakthough AND terrain bonuses. Even worse comes with national bonuses for Spec Ops. But they are expensive for the ecomony with 140 Infantry Equipment used ( compare to 100 of reg inf). It is fine right now, yet the number of spec ops per county must be nerfed ( as it is nerfed)

I don't know what's more shocking to me, you contradicting me yet stating exactly what my point was or 2 people who agree with you who also cannot read apparently. HOI4 is the first HOI where mountaineers and marines have better stats than infantry. Before infantry had MORE than special forces. They had to fight in their specialized terrains to get an advantage.

 

[Ksyr]

Since you like quotas so much, how a bout a cap for tank divisions or airplanes. Surely not everyone is able to command a tank or fly an airplane, only the above average people right?

How many caps we should have is also about playability. It is a game after all. If I had to choose between the three I would go for special forces. Pilot training/pool/cap would be a nice second. Tank forces are already limited by manufacturing cost and I'm not sure what good a cap would do.

 

[Gort11]

Yeah, having caps just for special forces seems weird. I can have a navy of nothing but 100 aircraft carriers and an airforce consisting of nothing but naval bombers, but I can't have more than 5% of my army have mountaineering training and gear?

It feels like there should be caps on all sorts of things if we're going down this road. However, I don't think capping anything is a great idea. If I want to try a game where I use no infantry and just rely on cavalry, I should be able to do that. If I want to see what a navy of nothing but destroyers can do, I should be able to do that. If I want to try a game where I only use mountaineers, I should be able to do that too. Doing weird what-if scenarios is part of what makes HoI4 fun.

It feels like capping special forces is a way to solve a problem of them being too good. Isn't the obvious solution to make infantry clearly better outside of the special forces favoured terrain?

 

[Urusai47]

Yeah, having caps just for special forces seems weird. I can have a navy of nothing but 100 aircraft carriers and an airforce consisting of nothing but naval bombers, but I can't have more than 5% of my army have mountaineering training and gear?

It feels like there should be caps on all sorts of things if we're going down this road. However, I don't think capping anything is a great idea. If I want to try a game where I use no infantry and just rely on cavalry, I should be able to do that. If I want to see what a navy of nothing but destroyers can do, I should be able to do that. If I want to try a game where I only use mountaineers, I should be able to do that too. Doing weird what-if scenarios is part of what makes HoI4 fun.

It feels like capping special forces is a way to solve a problem of them being too good. Isn't the obvious solution to make infantry clearly better outside of the special forces favoured terrain?

I concur.

 

[freejones912]

Hmm.. where is this exactly? Can't find it from youtube or your site.. or here or anywhere.

twitch saves videos you have to go there

 

[JerkyJerry]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this comment. Temperature and weather have been in the game since day 1.

Negative. Weather is not in game. Before release PDX stated that weather was too difficult to manage, to hard to balance.... I don't remember the exact reason but no, weather is not in game. You may very well see a weather report and the pop-up may say snow, or rain or whatever but it does not affect or effect any troops on the map what-so-ever. So it may say weather is doing this or that but it has zero effect on troops. So in reality there is no weather.

Previously the choice was (a) brute force through the issue or (b) spend time and effort fitting everybody out with maintenance & logistic companies.

Now we have option (c) be selective with what units to send and how they are trained. When I play as Britain do I train my tank forces in London or do I ship them to Egypt and train them there with the knowledge that the extra attrition will limit me to only 5 divisions not 6. I'm going to guess that pretty much every Russian General will have the "Winter Expert" ability giving every Russian unit the equivalent of an extra maintenance company FOR FREE. All of a sudden the Red Army will have a lot more spare equipment available.

You could always be selective with what units you bring. It is just a simple modifier. 5% more attrition, 10% it means nothing. So rather sending 5 divisions pre Corn Flakes I'm going to have to send 6?

Maybe you are such a veteran player you have long since surpassed any such concerns but speaking as somebody as merely hundreds of hours I think both changes are great and serve nicely as the cream on top of an already great Cornflakes dish. (I love how hundreds of hours is still a rookie in Paradox games!)

Again, it is just a modifier. I don't understand why so many people think this is going to be an extremely difficult decision or a decision at all. "Before Flakes I sent 6 divisions to N. Africa to wipe up the Brits. Now after Flakes I'll have to send 7? Um, ok."
I'm just not understanding how people are thinking this is the best thing since sliced bread.

It is temperture we are talking about not weather. Weather is mud, and snow, and fog etc. Weather stops planes from flying, tanks from moving etc. This is nothing more than an adjustment for temperature. An attrition temperature at that. Not movement. Not accuracy just attrition that's all.

 

[JerkyJerry]

how a bout a cap for tank divisions or airplanes. Surely not everyone is able to command a tank or fly an airplane, only the above average people right?

So much this!
I can't believe a solution to a perceived problem is a cap. Well, thankfully there will be at least one mod that deals with this properly.

 

[Sotahullu]

Well I am certainly interested in how this turns out but there are few points that I take interest in most cases.

Particularly I am interested on Quantity versus Quality set up you can have here. Indeed there is an option to gain more specialist for usage by giving up extra training but there is going to be lot of debate on how to approach this as a major or minor.

Well depending on how much you can boost quantity.

 

[Farquarsen]

A cap on things, oh yeah. In HOI3 there was a leadership cap. Complicated things a bit but did limit how many units you could field, how many aircraft you could fly and how many ships you could man. Its based on reality. For example each division fielded had at least one general and two senior colonels. that is a minor country deployment. ( Of course some minor countries had all the connected family members as senior officers in the regiment.--but that is off topic.) Majors had a division commander, two assistant commanders; these were usually flag rank. 7 to 9 colonels, depending on the country. 3 regimental commanders, Chief of Staff, G3, Artillery Regimental Commander, Support commander. Senior officers are not made in a few years. They take a long time to become reasonably good senior officers. Some are very exceptional, most are very competent. Some flag officers should have been left at the colonel level and we all know who they are. Some mistakes like taking Rome are forgivable, some like losing Stalingrad are not. Of course some should have stayed a corporal or let his betters command the army, but that too is off topic.

I think HOI4 should either not cap at all or reinstate the leadership cap so that quotas are enforced across the board and not just in select areas.

I also have a challenge, research the total number of units a country fielded in the war and try to win with that self imposed cap. When you do the research, match the division template as close as you can to the actual TO&E. Someone pointed out the support companies were actually battalions. I can attest that my research shows that both the US and Germany had signal battalions, logistics battalions at the division level not company level. Someone else mentioned an artillery battalion in the game is equivalent to 36 tubes, the artillery support is equal to 12 tubes, so balance your artillery accordingly. If you are playing single player, go get the the AI mod and buff your opponents. In addition, buff your opponents using the wheel but do not buff yourself. See how you do. If you are playing MP, just convince your MP buddies to limit themselves to actual divisions. See how you do.

 

[Axe99]

In the DD SF section. Players are creating a "balance problem" by replacing regular infantry with SF so PDS has decided to place a cap on the number of SF you can have.

Why they felt the need to intervene is puzzling. If the reason is balance in a single player game, isn't HOI4 about allowing sandbox play? Shouldn't players be allowed to create whatever armies they want and can field? If the problem is about balance in MP play, take a look at all the in house rules most MP games have. Surely the issue would be addressed there.

Why force an artificial cap upon players? @podcat

A long whiles ago, people discussed the idea of separate manpower pools (elite and normal, say) - in many ways, this is the same thing cut differently (and, to be fair, calculated differently). I see it as the inevitable limit on the number of 'top-tier' troops available, which does seem pretty plausible. It's not as if SF can do anything normal INF can't - it's just they do it better.

Yeah, having caps just for special forces seems weird. I can have a navy of nothing but 100 aircraft carriers and an airforce consisting of nothing but naval bombers, but I can't have more than 5% of my army have mountaineering training and gear?

It feels like there should be caps on all sorts of things if we're going down this road. However, I don't think capping anything is a great idea. If I want to try a game where I use no infantry and just rely on cavalry, I should be able to do that. If I want to see what a navy of nothing but destroyers can do, I should be able to do that. If I want to try a game where I only use mountaineers, I should be able to do that too. Doing weird what-if scenarios is part of what makes HoI4 fun.

It feels like capping special forces is a way to solve a problem of them being too good. Isn't the obvious solution to make infantry clearly better outside of the special forces favoured terrain?

I'd say there's two things to think about here:

• Everything can't be done at once. Even if the devs want to include a 'pilot' pool, they're not working on that right now.
• I'd need to hit the books to be sure, but I don't know if there's a huge difference in the ratio of skilled/unskilled labour in a DD vs a CV. It's not about putting caps on everything, it's about a way of limiting the access to 'high quality' manpower. There were issues in navies (and armies and air forces) in terms of the number of technicians they could muster, and there may be value in modelling this in some way, but there wasn't an issue, as far as I'm aware, in terms of allocating technicians between different roles (at a grand strategic level).

Negative. Weather is not in game. Before release PDX stated that weather was too difficult to manage, to hard to balance.... I don't remember the exact reason but no, weather is not in game. You may very well see a weather report and the pop-up may say snow, or rain or whatever but it does not affect or effect any troops on the map what-so-ever. So it may say weather is doing this or that but it has zero effect on troops. So in reality there is no weather.

Hey JJ, I'm not sure where you get this impression, but weather is both in the game and moddable - from the static_modifiers file in /common in my naval mod:

Spoiler

weather_rain_light = { # on Region 
    air_detection = -0.1
    naval_detection = -0.2 #DNM, vanilla -0.1
    naval_hit_chance = -0.2 #DNM, vanilla -0.05
    naval_speed_factor = -0.1 #DNM, vanilla -0.05
    naval_strike = -0.5 #DNM, vanilla -0.2 - seems a bit light, aircraft often had trouble just finding their targets once there was any kind of weather.
    air_accidents = 0.1
    air_mission_efficiency = -0.1

    local_org_regain = -0.05
}
weather_rain_heavy = { # on Region 
    air_detection = -0.2
    naval_detection = -0.5 #DNM, vanilla -0.2
    naval_hit_chance = -0.5 #DNM, vanilla -0.1 - heavy rain is more than a 10 per cent drop in capability.  Used % loss figure in Atlantic Escorts, loc 2927.
    naval_speed_factor = -0.3 #DNM, vanilla -0.1 - as per comment above. Would be nice to be able to vary by hull size.
    carrier_traffic = -1.0
    naval_strike = -0.9 #DNM - for whatever reason, there's no penalty to naval strike in heavy rain - not sure if this means non-carrier aircraft can let loose, but they won't be able to any more.
    air_accidents = 0.3
    air_bombing_targetting = -0.5
    local_org_regain = -0.2
    air_mission_efficiency = -0.3
}
weather_snow = { # on Region 
    air_detection = -0.15
    naval_detection = -0.3 #DNM, vanilla -0.15
    naval_hit_chance = -0.2 #DNM, vanilla -0.05
    naval_speed_factor = -0.1 #DNM, vanilla -0.05
    naval_strike = -0.7 #DNM, vanilla -0.3
    air_accidents = 0.1
    local_org_regain = -0.05
    air_mission_efficiency = -0.1
}
weather_blizzard = { # on Region 
    air_detection = -0.3
    naval_detection = -0.8 #DNM, vanilla -0.3
    naval_hit_chance = -0.7 #DNM, vanilla -0.1
    naval_speed_factor = -0.5 #DNM, vanilla -0.1
    naval_strike = -0.97 #DNM
    carrier_traffic = -1.0
    air_accidents = 0.3
    air_bombing_targetting = -0.7
    local_org_regain = -0.3
    air_mission_efficiency = -0.3
}
weather_sandstorm = { # on Region 
    air_detection = -0.9
    air_accidents = 0.6
    air_bombing_targetting = -1
    local_org_regain = -0.5
    air_mission_efficiency = -0.5
}
weather_mud = { # on Province
    attrition = 0.7
    army_speed_factor = -0.5
    army_attack_factor = -0.4
}
weather_extreme_cold = { # on Province
    winter_attrition = 0.2
    dig_in_speed_factor = -0.6
    local_org_regain = -0.05
    army_attack_factor = -0.1
}
weather_very_cold = { # on Province
    winter_attrition = 0.1
    dig_in_speed_factor = -0.3
}
weather_very_hot = { # on Province
    heat_attrition = 0.1
}
weather_extreme_hot = { # on Province
    heat_attrition = 0.2
    local_org_regain = -0.05
}
weather_ground_snow_medium = { # on Province
    army_speed_factor = -0.1
    army_attack_factor = -0.1
}
weather_ground_snow_high = { # on Province
    army_speed_factor = -0.25
    local_org_regain = -0.05
    army_attack_factor = -0.3
}

I've tested the mud impacts at the very least, and they're definitely a thing. They are impacted by limits on minimum speeds and the like, but they are a thing.

 

[JerkyJerry]

Hey JJ, I'm not sure where you get this impression, but weather is both in the game and moddable - from the static_modifiers file in /common in my naval mod:


I've tested the mud impacts at the very least, and they're definitely a thing. They are impacted by limits on minimum speeds and the like, but they are a thing.

Love you Axe! Man you love your navy!
Most are just attrition modifiers. Sure there are a couple of movement but -0.4? It is nothing like HOI3 when it tooks weeks to advance one province in mud.
Weather stops movement/attacks/bombing etc. as we all know. This is not a weather modifier but a temperature modifier.
So I stand corrected but only very very slightly (in numbers)

Which leads me to the following:
Italy has winter. Germany has winter. Russia has winter.
Italy has summer. Germany has summer. Russia has summer.
How much acclimatation are we talking about here?
If I send my Italian troops to the Russian front in April is there acclimation? May? June? July? August?
If I send my Russian troops to N. Africa in January is there acclimation?

Or does acclimation only take place if I am sending troops directly from the desert into a blizzard? How does travel time effect it? If my troops are sent from N. Africa through Greece, then Bulgaria, Romania wouldn't they be getting acclimated along the way? Would or shouldn't the proper equipment be catching up to them if they have a viable supply system? Or does the route taken not matter at all. Only the fact that troops are in one place or another, desert/winter?

 

[PanzerMan7]

As USA I can promise you I'm going to "exploit" the hell out of the battalion limit by building a huge reserve army of throwaway infantry to sit in the States and up my Special Forces count. But frankly, I don't think that's really an exploit because

1. I have to invest the infantry equipment and manpower into it

2. It really does simulate that I'm massively expanding my army while being selective about who I send overseas. Where is all this exploited marine manpower coming from? Why, the best and brightest in the rest of the army who have all been put through training!

 

[JerkyJerry]

The only issue I have with the Special Forces is the cap. Not that I use SF but I just hate caps. On anything.
The two reasons I don't build SF is 1. I play mostly as Germany so I don't need any help. 2. I can't keep track of every division once the war breaks out. I'm fighting in 20 different provinces at once! I can't find my Panzer 4's let alone some marine division to cross a river. Just cross the darn river!
I wish I had the ability to know where each and every unit is, use them always to their utmost strengths always minimize their weaknesses etc. but there is no way I can keep track of everything. So I just don't use them at all. But still HATE the cap!

 

[Axe99]

Love you Axe! Man you love your navy!
Most are just attrition modifiers. Sure there are a couple of movement but -0.4? It is nothing like HOI3 when it tooks weeks to advance one province in mud.
Weather stops movement/attacks/bombing etc. as we all know. This is not a weather modifier but a temperature modifier.
So I stand corrected but only very very slightly (in numbers)

Which leads me to the following:
Italy has winter. Germany has winter. Russia has winter.
Italy has summer. Germany has summer. Russia has summer.
How much acclimatation are we talking about here?
If I send my Italian troops to the Russian front in April is there acclimation? May? June? July? August?
If I send my Russian troops to N. Africa in January is there acclimation?

Or does acclimation only take place if I am sending troops directly from the desert into a blizzard? How does travel time effect it? If my troops are sent from N. Africa through Greece, then Bulgaria, Romania wouldn't they be getting acclimated along the way? Would or shouldn't the proper equipment be catching up to them if they have a viable supply system? Or does the route taken not matter at all. Only the fact that troops are in one place or another, desert/winter?

Loves ya too JJ .

I am rather partial to things naval . I'm not entirely sure why, but I likes what I like, and it doesn't seem to hurt anybody so why not .

As for the above, I suspect strongly it's still in balancing and teaking, so the devs wouldn't be able to answer those questions even if they were of a mind to. I'm afraid I most definitely cannot .

The only issue I have with the Special Forces is the cap. Not that I use SF but I just hate caps. On anything.

This is only a minor diversion, but how about these fine specimens? Surely you can't hate them totally?

Spoiler

 

[BrotherJonathan]

They mentioned in the bottom of the dev diary that there is a tech branch allowing for more special forces. Hopefully some nations will get other buffs to their SP caps to match their historic strengths/traditions

I definitely think that some nations should be able to raise their SP caps through other means. For example, Britain could get an "Establish the SAS" NF that would raise their SP cap.

 

[GermanDave]

Why not take it all a little further:

1. Airplanes, ships and special forces now have a dedicated manpower pool (Right now airwarfare is WAY too much about spam)
2. The competence of your general staff should determine how much manpower is transferred each month into the relevant pool.
3. If the amry/navy/airforce leader is a shithead (or Göhring for that matter) the system gives you a crappy amount of pilots, fewer aces etc.
4. The three institutions army, navy and airforce now compete for influence and can be built up (which should piss of the other leaders and make them more incompetent)
5. Landing craft technology and the research for marines are seperate fields when their development was symbiotic IRL.

TL;DR: In general the game could do better in simulating the overall development of the armed forces during ww2.

 

[Alexanderhbk]

Developers! add visible PING to the multiplayer servers next to the player's names.
People often leave servers because of the bad connection that creates a very slow game speed. just add the usual ping icon that MOST of the games have. This will help a lot to everyone. Thank you!

 

[Sventex]

Hmm...I play France fairly often because I enjoy managing defenses, however I'm almost 100% reliant on Special Forces because France doesn't offer any Infantry bonuses and the manpower is on the low side. Not to mention France borders 3 fascists states with mountain ranges, Looks like playing France will get a lot harder.

Also, as an aside, shouldn't Marines get a bonus for defending Rivers? If they're trained to cross them, they should in theory, be able to counter a river crossing more effectively then standard infantry because they know what to look for.

Also, another question. What happens to say, desert acclimitized troops that have been moved to a normal climate? Do they retain their desert appearance?

 

[Asar85]

@podcat First, Thanks for the great work from you and your team. The new counting system (brigade counting instead of divisions) is amazing! Could you plz add it to the mrp (German-Sovjet truce) mechanics? At the moment the mrp system is not working out, because the current system(mrp) is counting division numbers at the border (GER-SOV) instead of brigade numbers. We had a few times problems with people who exploid this mechanics with building division with 1 brigade in a multiplayer. Maybe now that you have already a system for brigade counting you could invent this for mrp too?

Best regards
Asar