HOI4 Dev Diary - Acclimatization and Special Forces

[Sourlol]

Had a dad, paranoidsteve, shaka of carthage

TIL, thanks!

 

[billcorr]

Don't know if somebody else didn't mention this already but wouldn't it better to handle Acclimatization by using appropriate gear and equipment. People might adjust to climate but in the end it's specialized gear that keeps them feel good, healthy or even alive. We all know that there is special equipment for different climate situations.

Yes, according to a US military medicine textbook, in WW2, America emphasized equipment as a way to deal with weather and climate.

"During World War II the Army did little to devise special testing for specific jobs or climates. More emphasis was placed upon adapting the environment to the man, that is, on developing uniforms and equipment. "

Spoiler: I. Manpower Selection And The Preventive Medicine Program Preventive Medicine In World War II, Volume III, Personal Health Measures And Immunization

Here is a quote from a chapter entitled, from a book entitled,
I. Manpower Selection And The Preventive Medicine Program
Preventive Medicine In World War II Volume III, Personal Health Measures And Immunization

Physical Standards for Special Categories

The physical standards as given in MR 1-9 applied only to the induction or enlistment of enlisted men. Standards for commission as an officer or as a cadet in the United States Military Academy were embodied in AR 40-105, and were higher than those for enlisted men, particularly with respect to eyesight and physical stamina. The physical standards for all female personnel serving in the Army were adapted from the Army Nurse standards. To admit women of Oriental descent, adjustments were made in measurement requirements.

During World War II the Army did little to devise special testing for specific jobs or climates. More emphasis was placed upon adapting the environment to the man, that is, on developing uniforms and equipment. The Army Air Forces, however, carried out considerable experimentation to arrive at valid tests for determining physical aptitude for aircrew training. To predict success in only three aircrew jobs-pilot, bombardier, and navigator-it was found that a battery of 20 tests was required. Each of these tests contributed significantly to the prediction of success in at least one of these specialties.33 Followup studies of bomber and fighter pilots in the European theater showed high correlation between aptitude scores and performance in the field.34

Special physical standards were devised for officers and enlisted men engaged in training and service in marine and simulated marine diving and in the use of rescue apparatus.35 In October 1943, physical qualifications for parachute duty for both officers and enlisted men were adopted.36 Requirements for cardiovascular condition and blood pressure level were higher than under induction standards; many orthopedic conditions were disqualifying for this type of service.

 

[T Knight]

I'm trying to remember any unit at the divisional level that was true "special forces". The term that probably should have been used in the DD is "Specialized Units" Which para, marines and mountain would def fall under.

That said, my guess the 5% is to accommodate not allowing SP to cheese units against the AI. Those that wanna go the route can easily make the define change to allow it, and it won't effect anything other than achievement hunting.

TFH intraduced "Special forces" to hoi3, so it would be my assumption they will eventually find their way to hoi4

I agree with you. True "special forces" with commando-style functions operated at a battalion-level size or smaller at a time and not on a divisional level, the largest commando formation to fight as a unit was a brigade of which the UK had 4 (army). Marines, mountain and paratroopers are specialized units.

If true special forces are to be included then a new commando infantry unit should be created.
This unit can be a support company or line unit.
The number of units available to be trained should be limited, perhaps allowable by National Focus research or event.
There shouldn't be many commando units in a division, so as a support company this is solved, as a line unit there should be a way to limit the amount of these units in a "division" to keep them no larger than 3-5 battalions, ie brigade sized, maybe higher xp point cost to add unit.
Commandos operated tactically so I think any advantage to having these units in a division should be reflected in the "Combat Tactics" part of the game, either creating a new combat tactic like "commando raid" or giving a large recon stat so that the commander of the division with the commando unit picks the best tactic.

 

[billcorr]

If true special forces are to be included then a new commando infantry unit should be created.
This unit can be a support company or line unit.
The number of units available to be trained should be limited, perhaps allowable by National Focus research or event.
There shouldn't be many commando units in a division, so as a support company this is solved, as a line unit perhaps these could be limited by smaller attack values because of the smaller size of these units on a divisional level.
Commandos operated tactically so I think any advantage to having these units in a division should be reflected in the "Combat Tactics" part of the game, either creating a new combat tactic like "commando raid" or giving a large recon stat so that the commander of the division with the commando unit picks the best tactic.

That's a clever idea. Very good.

What if the commando units were separate and distinct from the other units? Not attached to a division, but instead used to conduct strategic (not tactical) level missions.

This is a bit of an abstraction, but a nation might have a tally of commando teams that would be trained and possibly expended (depends of whether or not they survived their mission).

Some missions for them might be:

1. Destroy a heavy dockyard (well, when HoI4 has heavy, medium and light dockyards)
2. Kidnap an enemy officer
3. Seize an enemy airfield
4. Reduce a fort's value by 1d6
5. Sink an enemy ship
6. Kidnap an enemy minister
7. Steal the plans for a Tier III superheavy battleship (+50% research for SHBB)
8. Reduce (or increase) a country's national unity
9. Smuggle out _____________ (fill in the blank)
10. Destroy a factory or infrastructure or the Guns of Navarone.

 

[Secret Master]

during ww2 they let warrant officers fly (Marines) and if I remember correctly noncoms could be helo pilots in the army, but now it WO and above only. All other branches officers only afaik, which was where the joke came from "Going in enlisted, choose the AF cause they only send their officers into the fight"

Nope. There were actual enlisted pilots in the US during WWII. My grandfather-in-law was one.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Vi...96406/1941-1945-world-war-ii-sergeant-pilots/

Take a look. It's really interesting stuff.

 

[billcorr]

Nope. There were actual enlisted pilots in the US during WWII. My grandfather-in-law was one.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Vi...96406/1941-1945-world-war-ii-sergeant-pilots/

Take a look. It's really interesting stuff.

Yes, that was interesting.

The article stated that the enlisted pilot manpower pool was a subset of a larger pool:

Candidates had to have a high school diploma and rate in the top 50 percent of the class, with at least 1.5 credits in math, and be between the ages of 18 and 22

 

[Had a dad]

Nope. There were actual enlisted pilots in the US during WWII. My grandfather-in-law was one.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Vi...96406/1941-1945-world-war-ii-sergeant-pilots/

Take a look. It's really interesting stuff.

I thought there had been but when I searched for it I couldn't find anything to confirm... so I began to doubt myself... nice to know the only time I'm wrong is when I think I'm wrong thanks for the link!

 

[Secret Master]

Yes, that was interesting.

The article stated that the enlisted pilot manpower pool was a subset of a larger pool:

Candidates had to have a high school diploma and rate in the top 50 percent of the class, with at least 1.5 credits in math, and be between the ages of 18 and 22

Yeah. And most of them ended up commissioned anyway.

Interestingly enough, I'd like to cross-reference these requirements with college entrance requirements of the period. My bet would be that these requirements matched college entrance requirements closely.

I thought there had been but when I searched for it I couldn't find anything to confirm... so I began to doubt myself... nice to know the only time I'm wrong is when I think I'm wrong thanks for the link!

You are quite welcome.

 

[RELee]

I thought there had been but when I searched for it I couldn't find anything to confirm... so I began to doubt myself... nice to know the only time I'm wrong is when I think I'm wrong thanks for the link!

How about that. Even when you're wrong, your'e right.

 

[billcorr]

• The use of terrain will play a bigger factor in the game if there are lower numbers of marines and mountain units available to negate the effects of defensive terrain.
• Conveying information to the players about the effects of terrain will be even more useful.

This cap also makes WW1 style river camping more viable on the Soviet front and the only way to break that would be with GBP left or significant air superiority backed with CAS, possibly both, making the airforce and GBP more OP than they already are.

As Baddo pointed out, without a surplus of marines for the attacker, defending behind rivers will be even more important.

• River crossing: penalty of -30% or -60% for attacker attack and breakthrough depending on the river size

Also, mountain and hill lines will channel advances if there are less mountaineers available to the attacker.

From a gamer's perspective, with terrain effects ascendant, it will be useful to visualize the effect of terrain on the units' stats (offense, defense).

Looking forward to having terrain effects increase and affect game-play and decision making.

Summary: with less ability to negate the effects of terrain, terrain will make more of a difference (even in a Grand Strategy game).

 

[bERt0r]

Negate terrain? Even if you use marines or mountaineers, the defender has still a decent advantage. The 50-100% planning bonus + air superiority is what makes it even possible to cross rivers and mountains without exceedingly superiour ground forces.

 

[T Knight]

That's a clever idea. Very good.

What if the commando units were separate and distinct from the other units? Not attached to a division, but instead used to conduct strategic (not tactical) level missions.

This is a bit of an abstraction, but a nation might have a tally of commando teams that would be trained and possibly expended (depends of whether or not they survived their mission).

Some missions for them might be:

1. Destroy a heavy dockyard (well, when HoI4 has heavy, medium and light dockyards)
2. Kidnap an enemy officer
3. Seize an enemy airfield
4. Reduce a fort's value by 1d6
5. Sink an enemy ship
6. Kidnap an enemy minister
7. Steal the plans for a Tier III superheavy battleship (+50% research for SHBB)
8. Reduce (or increase) a country's national unity
9. Smuggle out _____________ (fill in the blank)
10. Destroy a factory or infrastructure or the Guns of Navarone.

The new Commando units could also have higher speed, breakthrough and lower night combat penalty, and less hard attack given that these were light infantry units.

 

[Moishe Greenblatt]

I'm just laughing at all of the people crying about not being able to spam their special forces. I have over 1,000 hours of almost exclusively competitive multiplayer games VS humans. I main Japan and UK and I never build marines. You don't NEED marines at all. Its really easy as Japan or the UK to invade either China or Normandy since its very easy to get air supremacy and get your navy in close for shore bombardment. Literally just get some CAS and air superiority over them make invasion orders over several tiles with a bunch of infantry or tanks once you get the 3rd naval invasion technology and boom you just invaded them. Naval forts? again just get air superiority and bomb them with your air force which should be superior to the Axis air force or the Chinese air force if you're playing as Japan.

Great update Paradox I can't wait to play games without having to fight full armies of special forces. Thank you for making Special Forces Special Again. The 5% cap is absolutely perfect please do not change it.

 

[bERt0r]

I'm just laughing at all of the people crying about not being able to spam their special forces. I have over 1,000 hours of almost exclusively competitive multiplayer games VS humans. I main Japan and UK and I never build marines. You don't NEED marines at all. Its really easy as Japan or the UK to invade either China or Normandy since its very easy to get air supremacy and get your navy in close for shore bombardment. Literally just get some CAS and air superiority over them make invasion orders over several tiles with a bunch of infantry or tanks once you get the 3rd naval invasion technology and boom you just invaded them. Naval forts? again just get air superiority and bomb them with your air force which should be superior to the Axis air force or the Chinese air force if you're playing as Japan.

Great update Paradox I can't wait to play games without having to fight full armies of special forces. Thank you for making Special Forces Special Again. The 5% cap is absolutely perfect please do not change it.

Yeah I guess the only people who like the update are those who do not use special forces. Obviously there are exploits going on by mixing special forces with other special forces and tanks but that's not really adressed by the cap as mixing in a few batallions in your tank templates does not exceed the cap quickly. What it does limit is any sort of coordinated special force actions. You need 160 other divisions before you can start training a decent marine force for invasions. Holding the italian border with mountaineers as france is completly impossible. Because you have so few and are really not that much better than normal infantry people will just ignore special forces alltoghether. That or paradox will extremly buff them so you'll have your new op SF to complain about. The cap won't fix anything.

 

[ashmizen]

So d-day has to be conducted with 2.5% marines and 2.5% paratroopers? Sounds like this is way too low.

Oddly, this makes tiny nations with only 10 divisions able to field something like half their forces as elite special forces while nations like the USA and Germany will have only tiny special forces (1.67% of each branch). Historically it was the reverse - Luxumburg did not even have paratroopers, while Germany and the US had developed the famous special forces.

Should be fixed by

1. Removing the minimum. Small counties lack the resource for special forces, much less fielding them in higher percentages.

2. 15%, or a 5% cap per type.

 

[Uniform764]

Flying is easy, it's the takeoff and landing that separate those that can from corpses.

Going first solo is a laugh. I remember getting 15 feet off the deck and thinking "that seat where the instructor usually sits is...REALLY empty right now"

now if you are talking present day... there is a reason they aren't considered a SOF or SOG..

SOF are below the scale of this game and calling Paratroopers/Marines/Mountaineers special forces is a misnomer imo. What we're talking about here is effectively "elite" line divisions, who have a particular terrain specialisation

 

[Pickles GRR]

SOF are below the scale of this game and calling Paratroopers/Marines/Mountaineers special forces is a misnomer imo. What we're talking about here is effectively "elite" line divisions, who have a particular terrain specialisation

Agreed they are conflating two factors - elite/selected troops and specialised training. Well 3 if you include acclimatisation bonuses.

In the war some of these were correlated eg British Airborne but they need not be - an earlier poster contrasted the US 82 vs 101 airborne.
Designating a division mountain did not make it elite (or for that matter good in mountains though I guess that's the extended training time & extra infantry equipment).

I think they should separate these in game too. Remove the "quality" bonus from "Special Forces" & just give them the terrain specialisations, which could improve with the tech instead of increasing org.

I dunno if you could then implement Elites as a division flag to allow a certain proportion of divisions have slightly improved stats out of the gate. Or maybe allow them to train to seasoned instead of regular.

I am very meh on this bit of the DLC. I like the objective of the SF cap though it's a cludgy fix to an issue they created themselves. And the better acclimitisation for SF just feels like a tacked on bonus so they get something, it does not speak to me of WWII warfare.
Acclimitisation itself is OK but not exciting. The rest of DLC looks great though so I will cope.

 

[_Sohei_]

This does not make any sense at all. Acclimatization is primarily about training and equipment appropriate for the conditions. It isn't so much about time spent in a particular environment. This entire feature would make more sense as a training and equipment investment to add a climate trait. It should also not be lost from investing in a different climate. Humans do not adjust to hot or cold exclusively to the detriment of the other. That is a myth.

 

[safe-keeper]

Humans do not adjust to hot or cold exclusively to the detriment of the other. That is a myth.

Yeah, they should be two separate stats that didn't affect each others.

 

[Mr.Bajskorv]

This does not make any sense at all. Acclimatization is primarily about training and equipment appropriate for the conditions. It isn't so much about time spent in a particular environment. This entire feature would make more sense as a training and equipment investment to add a climate trait. It should also not be lost from investing in a different climate. Humans do not adjust to hot or cold exclusively to the detriment of the other. That is a myth.

Well, the human body does adjust to temperature. It's a not a myth. Sportsmen doesn't go to warmer or colder climte 1-2 weeks before a big cup just for the fun of it.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070702...rmy.mil/download/heatacclimatizationguide.pdf
Who said that this aclimitasion mechanic isn't about equipment also.?