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Lets do a little comparision of some key units in A with for example 4rd Armoured (could have picked other divisions as well) just to illustrate the problem:
REC
Füsiliere vs Cavalry Scouts
Ok might give the point here to the Füsilere but with 40 points they are quite pricey. Cavalry Scouts are way better for at purposes.
Bmw vs Bantam
Bmw explodes if you look at it. Bantam is armoured and can even act like a nice additional AA gun. I guess it is balanced due to the fact that Bantam is 5 km/h slower onroad.
INF
Osttruppen/Grenadiere vs Rifles
12 men 20 point Rifles vs 9 men disheartend 20 point Osttruppen or 25 point Grenadiere which are worse on almost all ranges and have less health. Make your pick...
TANKS
Panzer 35 /Panzer III H vs Vet 2 Abrams
...
SUP
IG 18 vs Sherman 105 / M8
...no wait, IG 18 with 2 per card!!
AT
Panzerjäger 35R vs Hellcat
Just let that sink in for a moment please...
Ok 352nd got vet2 Pak38 which is neither gonna pen your Shermans or reach your Hellcat.
AA
Flak 36 and Flakvierling are okay I guess. For 4rd Armoured literally every 50 cal adds to the AA net.
ARTY
120mm Mortars vs Mortar HT
Oh I get it, these are supposed to be the selling point of the Division. Good luck using them against tank divisions though.
AIR
Stuka and the crappy 109's vs B-26 "Death Star"
...
Looking at this I think I have enough of these bullshit limitations for some german divisions. Move Marder up to A and make one Jagdpanther available in B!
REC
Füsiliere vs Cavalry Scouts
Ok might give the point here to the Füsilere but with 40 points they are quite pricey. Cavalry Scouts are way better for at purposes.
Bmw vs Bantam
Bmw explodes if you look at it. Bantam is armoured and can even act like a nice additional AA gun. I guess it is balanced due to the fact that Bantam is 5 km/h slower onroad.
INF
Osttruppen/Grenadiere vs Rifles
12 men 20 point Rifles vs 9 men disheartend 20 point Osttruppen or 25 point Grenadiere which are worse on almost all ranges and have less health. Make your pick...
TANKS
Panzer 35 /Panzer III H vs Vet 2 Abrams
...
SUP
IG 18 vs Sherman 105 / M8
...no wait, IG 18 with 2 per card!!
AT
Panzerjäger 35R vs Hellcat
Just let that sink in for a moment please...
Ok 352nd got vet2 Pak38 which is neither gonna pen your Shermans or reach your Hellcat.
AA
Flak 36 and Flakvierling are okay I guess. For 4rd Armoured literally every 50 cal adds to the AA net.
ARTY
120mm Mortars vs Mortar HT
Oh I get it, these are supposed to be the selling point of the Division. Good luck using them against tank divisions though.
AIR
Stuka and the crappy 109's vs B-26 "Death Star"
...
Looking at this I think I have enough of these bullshit limitations for some german divisions. Move Marder up to A and make one Jagdpanther available in B!
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That’s not an objective comparison. You just compared the 352nd (a lower tier team play division) to the 4th AD, arguably the best allied division in the game.
Some one argued about grenadiers and such versus rifles. That division isn’t designed to go one to one with rifles. You have HMG42s, lots of them. Use them while keeping rifles at 400m and win. Rifles are only good at 200-300m and at 100m to non specialized infantry.
Some one argued about grenadiers and such versus rifles. That division isn’t designed to go one to one with rifles. You have HMG42s, lots of them. Use them while keeping rifles at 400m and win. Rifles are only good at 200-300m and at 100m to non specialized infantry.
Wasn't my goal, I challenge you to make an objective comparison. Can you do it? These notes are based on my observations.
It looks even worse if u try to find the german comparisen in all the divisions combined, and ther is the problem.. germany has to chose what they are good at and take havy disadvantages in ther divisions in return.. On allies side, u jst got evrything in the division u could ever ask for sprinkeld with 1.2km tanks on top.
I do think 352 was a bit better when vet was more powerful(the vet grenadiers and mg42s in particular would matter more)
Fusiliers are mostly to be a close combat squad since they have double SMGs, though they're not efficient at it.
Most divisions would blush at what 4arm gets in phase A. 4arm is dumb.
The cheap french tanks are useful though, they just have a different role from abrams.
IMO if you nerfed 4arm and 15 scots you'd get rid of a lot of the problems, though 352 would still not be all that amazing.
Fusiliers are mostly to be a close combat squad since they have double SMGs, though they're not efficient at it.
Most divisions would blush at what 4arm gets in phase A. 4arm is dumb.
The cheap french tanks are useful though, they just have a different role from abrams.
IMO if you nerfed 4arm and 15 scots you'd get rid of a lot of the problems, though 352 would still not be all that amazing.
There are many allied decks that are super strong. 2nd ID, Pancerna are top tier. Even Guards after the crit system change.
Only way to solv this is to adress the problem with the german division. Or u have to remove units from the Allies to give them disadvantages, witch is a bad sollution tbh sins we cant veto maps in the rotation and getting a near garanteed loss just cause ur division choise is just dump.
We should work on finding a serten set of standarts that all divsions should be able to work under. With serten spezifikations, like evryone should have acess to 1.2km tanks in B. Or no 1.2km He Tanks in A and so on.. Divisions should not divers in ther utter abilety to even fight somthing, they should only divers in ther unit types and effektivness to fight somthing. But not having the abillety at all to fight somthing just ends in unesserey frustration and in the end a complet dismiss of certen divisions from the game, like 352.
And its not just 4AD where this kicks in.. Pols play nearly identicly. Guards as well, 15.Scotts aswell.. 2ID is Similar..
We should work on finding a serten set of standarts that all divsions should be able to work under. With serten spezifikations, like evryone should have acess to 1.2km tanks in B. Or no 1.2km He Tanks in A and so on.. Divisions should not divers in ther utter abilety to even fight somthing, they should only divers in ther unit types and effektivness to fight somthing. But not having the abillety at all to fight somthing just ends in unesserey frustration and in the end a complet dismiss of certen divisions from the game, like 352.
And its not just 4AD where this kicks in.. Pols play nearly identicly. Guards as well, 15.Scotts aswell.. 2ID is Similar..
Easy solution, go play chess...it has a thoroughly equal balance of units.
The reality is that not all divisions are created equal, and were never intended to be...that was made perfectly clear by the devs from the start.
The reality is that not all divisions are created equal, and were never intended to be...that was made perfectly clear by the devs from the start.
First of, noone ever asked for mirror balance.. U can have flavor in the units u decide to put in the rols. But the rols have to be filled.. Do u wanne pretend that somthing like CoH2 is mirror balanced? Ther factions play fundamentel differend, but they all have acess to an AT gun in som sort so u dont just auto lose aganst a spezific faction.
And even if this is exactly what the devs wanted at the beginning.. its not working, its just frustrating and adds nothing good to the game. So it should be changed.
The problem is some of the Axis divisions have designs that are deliberately pretty limited, which gives them an interesting design, but makes them less playable. Windhund, lehr, 352, and to a lesser extent 716 and 3fj all have a pretty careful set of design considerations that only three or four have, and it's still different.
If you did something about the worst offender divisions, I think ranked would be a lot better, but there'd still be things to be done.
I kinda want to go into the mod tools and do what I have in mind to improve the division design with mp balance in mind.
If you did something about the worst offender divisions, I think ranked would be a lot better, but there'd still be things to be done.
I kinda want to go into the mod tools and do what I have in mind to improve the division design with mp balance in mind.
17th SS is better. It’s basically an upgraded 352nd. You don’t get 4km Arty but you get Pgrens, pak43s, and stug IVs which shit all over US tanks.
352nd is a team deck.
352nd is a team deck.
Reminds me of the early days of Steel Division when guys claimed that allies might be good in 1v1 but in team games axis are totaly op. Then whenever these "1v1 players" came in and pushed the axis team to their spawn before Phase A was over they were stunned. I guess 90% of these people are not around anymore.
"it is a team deck", well then sure I don't want you on my team if you are going to be a liability to me since you can't protect yourself for half of the game...
Oh and spamming artillery doesn't make you a good team player. If that is what you mean, I feel like talking to a Wargame 10v10 support deck player.
"it is a team deck", well then sure I don't want you on my team if you are going to be a liability to me since you can't protect yourself for half of the game...
Oh and spamming artillery doesn't make you a good team player. If that is what you mean, I feel like talking to a Wargame 10v10 support deck player.
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There's maybe two or three decks that are better in team games just because you can do way more greedy stuff with them(3arm is one of them because you can buy both shermans at the start AND the mortar track which shits on a ton of opponents)
352 is definitely not one of them.
Fussel ..fussel... Have you recently started to play axis haha.. and now you start talking about how hard is to win with many axis divsion and how bad they are ... when i was saying this thingh you talked that the balance was equal blabla you are pathetic.
Things have changed a bit recently, at guns have taken some hidden nerf with the change in the crit system, 4AD did appear since then, 1st Pancerna got a Firefly in B, 17th SS got a nerf in its arty tab...
Check my post log and you see I was always critical of some balance decisions of axis divisions but never shied away to mention allied shortcomings as well. Attacks on a personal level make it hard to take you serious though, so this is the last thing I will say to you.
From what I've been able to find out, only 8 jagdpanther operated with the 352nd for a week or two, and at the end of the three week or so period covering that time, the entire battalion ended that time with 8 destroyed, 17 undergoing operational repair, one undergoing long term rebuild, and only had 8 (spread across three companies and HQ) remaining operational. That is hardly a glowing recommendation to have the things with an inf div from a thematic perspective to begin with.
I don't know why you are bringing in COH2...I referred to a game (chess) that is mirror balanced, to show a specific point. The devs specifically addressed (pre- and post- release) that some divs were harder to play (and win) with than others.
wuhuuu.. here we go agan, the "Muhhhhh realism~" argument... We are talking about a game, with 2 fixed and fully arbitrarry range settings on vehicles, a compressed uncapped skaling in AV and Pen, operating a 3 stage dice role to determaning the outcome of fierfights.. Pls, tell me more about "Muhh realisem".. this discussion is about gameplay and balance.
Well u use chess to claim that balance only is archived under mirrow balance, i use CoH to show that balance under a unified set of standards dos not mean mirrow balance at all.
And i furter use CoH to show that this system.. setting up a unified standart and then designing all factions around this with differend aproches and units is a system that even after years is holding its playerbase.. u know in contrast to a game that died after 3 month..
And its no argument that the deffs wanted it to be this way if this way isnt working and ending in a dead game after just 3 month. If i say i wanted all the time to run head first into a wall, it dosend ment it wasend a retarded idear to do so and that my head will fucking hurt.