A 15 pt card of 12 villagers with mixed weaponry. They even wear civilian clothes. Why are they not broken-hearted?
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Unlike Osttruppen or Ersatztruppen, they not only want to be there but are eager to fight.
2e DB was the only division creating new companies along the way to the Rhine, with volunteers flogging to it to enlist. If we had an "inexperienced" trait, we would have given them, but they are certainly not broken-hearted.
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Yeah, the other disheartened units are: Press-ganged E. European former POWs, rear area personnel thrown into the front.
Well thats.. hmm lets see.. What u mean are so called "Hilfswillige" or short Hiwis. Mostly civilians that where kinda pressed into suport actions but still paied to som degree. I guess?
Cause the so called Ostruppen or Ostlegionen where a result of the early war aganst the soviets. Formed from the personal initiativ of former russian officers that essentially wantet to fight aganst the Comunist regime in ther home areas. High numbers of Ukrainiens as example desertet from the russian army in the early month of the war and later became Ostrtuppen in ther entierty. Good example is the East battalion 795, a georgian battalion witch even keept its former comand staff as it was possible. Nearly 500k later joined the german army this way. Yes out of PoW camps but not rly pressed or forced.
Ther was a serten lvl of porblems accuring around this division that made them not ideal for combat in conjunktion with other german divisions, mainly language barriers and that russians tended to simply refuse to surrender to this troops as they where traiters to them. Its also true that this division when formed had initial high accurens of deserters, mostly when they where deployed in ther home areas. This si why im ok with them having a malus on ther effectines ingame.
In the end they where used as rear guards and in partisan supression dutys. But when they got into frontline combat they didnd just fall apart. Our exapmple the 795 stoped a russian tank atack on the village of Khasnidon in CqB.. u dont stop tanks in CqB if u "dont wanne be ther". But just after that they got into a skirmish with a nearby german unit cause the language problems.
When comming to the normandy story of the 795, som parts surrenderd quit quickly at Cherbourg where a portion of them where cut off and sort of lost without comand struckter, namly an entier battalion ( 4. batallion at this point), the sam battalion stopping the tanks in Khasnidon.. Other parts, keeped fighting and didnt surrendered long after the Carentan. As u look up the storys behind the companys that ceeped fighting and the ones that imidietly gave up, it seems to be a comand struckter problem in most cases.
To say they are all simply dishardend is just wrong. There moral wasend high, just cause they didnt fight where they wantet and didnt fight aganst soviets, what they volunteered fore, but under comand they where not just falling appart as u would expect from a battalion of people that dont wants to fight. Shure they sayed when captuered they where pressed into service.. what else u gonne say? "Hell i love nazis, fuck Stalin!" is more or less the last thing u say when u have to face that ur send back to the Red army btw~ Them bing forced is as true as austria being invaded by germany in 1938..
Dont miss understand me, i fully agree that they should have the dishardend factor on them, even if i dont like the name. But its just dump to think that a bunch of civilians, just because they wanne fight, dont crumble when running into a trained and motivatetd enemy.. ther is a reason behind all the training a soldier gets, its not just about motivation
The french civics should get the dishardend factor aswell. This are untrained, undrilled and unconditioned civillians, not more then a millitia. Under guidens shure they can fight but atm they are at the same lvl ingame as the german soldiers of the 12. SS as example that resulted into the battle of Hill112.. Sry but just no..
I'm not sure if the game uses some sort of HP system for infantry, but if it does, it would make sense to give inexperienced troops lower HP. That would in a way simulate inexperience at using cover properly.
Would be nice to see one way or another the 1st Belgian Infantry Brigade Piron (2200 men, 500 vehicles) and the Dutch Prinses Irene Brigade (1200 men). They came in Normandy in augustus 1944 in the same days as the 2DB and were attached to 6th Airborne in Normandy. They did participate to Operation Paddle to liberate the coastline alongside the 6th Airborne and with french Kieffer men.
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@Gondie
Actually, you are not exactly right about Hiwis, Osttruppen & Ostlegionen.
The former were auxiliaries, used mostly in non combat role. Some might have fought, but it was not their purpose, they are not represented ingame.
The second were Russian citizens, mostly former Red Army soldiers recruited in POWs camps where they had a choice between starvation and service in the Wehrmacht. They were regarded as unreliable in combat, and only used in anti partisan operations. They were mostly kept prisoners in their barracks and never trusted to keep their gun when not in operation for fear they would desert with. And in France many did, joining the Resistance where their military experience proved valuable. They are those represented ingame.
The latter, the Ostlegionen, are what you described. They were anticommunist or nationalist NON RUSSIAN Soviet citizen, especially Ukrainians & Georgians, usually much more willing to throw their lot with the Germans. And thus, were regarded as much more reliable. They are not represented ingame, for they would be non different from German Grenadier, save for Russian acknows.
As for the Volontaires, many of them were maquisards who had spent the last months if not years around weapons.
The Disheartened trait covers troops who are pressed into service against their will. They are not bad soldiers stats-wise, just not willing to die for their master and thus more prone to surrender.
@Gilmund
The Dutch & Belgian brigades were very light, they would mostly be equipped with Humber & Staghound in every role, including tanks!
Actually, you are not exactly right about Hiwis, Osttruppen & Ostlegionen.
The former were auxiliaries, used mostly in non combat role. Some might have fought, but it was not their purpose, they are not represented ingame.
The second were Russian citizens, mostly former Red Army soldiers recruited in POWs camps where they had a choice between starvation and service in the Wehrmacht. They were regarded as unreliable in combat, and only used in anti partisan operations. They were mostly kept prisoners in their barracks and never trusted to keep their gun when not in operation for fear they would desert with. And in France many did, joining the Resistance where their military experience proved valuable. They are those represented ingame.
The latter, the Ostlegionen, are what you described. They were anticommunist or nationalist NON RUSSIAN Soviet citizen, especially Ukrainians & Georgians, usually much more willing to throw their lot with the Germans. And thus, were regarded as much more reliable. They are not represented ingame, for they would be non different from German Grenadier, save for Russian acknows.
As for the Volontaires, many of them were maquisards who had spent the last months if not years around weapons.
The Disheartened trait covers troops who are pressed into service against their will. They are not bad soldiers stats-wise, just not willing to die for their master and thus more prone to surrender.
@Gilmund
The Dutch & Belgian brigades were very light, they would mostly be equipped with Humber & Staghound in every role, including tanks!
They couldn't form an entire deck but what about a piece of c inf and/or a belgian staghound inside 6th Airborne like what you did with Ox and Bucks ?
The 1st Belgian Brigade could maybe introduce a cheaper card of a different model of staghound (mk1 T17E1 ? ) in the recon tab of 6th airborne?
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Actually this addition would be very good. Red Devils suffer from lack of infantry on C and on B heavily.
Ostleagions are simply Ostruppen grouped togheter to overcom the operational problems with this units.
Well its tru that the starvation waves where a big problem and 'motivation', but people often like to oversee that in the exect same tim frame the Wehrmacht faced its owen waves of collapsing suply routes resoulting in starvation.
That this units are unreliable is agan not quit true, they where simply havyly depended on ther comand struckter, somthing that was kinda opposide to what the german training standard was at this time. So they semed to be less combat effectiv when deplyed in the same fassion.. And i just gave u a example of Ostruppen fighting in france and that infact they where not likly to just roll over and give up when able to operate freely in ther owen way.
Somthing we can not rly say about this guys cant we? First of lets get out of the way that partisan aktions and frontline combat are not at all interchangeable. It needs 2 completly differend types of combat and strukter and also training.
In the Balkans we see exactly that, there we had a massive resistanse movemend that despit having a very sufisticatet comand struckter took years to be able to convert its units into somthing able to take on german Combat units.
In france that never happend.. The role of the maquis was a partisan band and a spy network, very good indeed in sabotage and relay informations but not even close to what hade formed in the balkans to be able to take on full out combat.
They actually tryed that btw. 2 times the french resistance went into all out combat with german frontline units. Once near Clermont Ferrand and once near Genob (no idear how this is sayed in french) and both times.. well lets say if ur stuck with one of the obtions, stick with the POWs.. I dont say they are bad spys and sabotuers, spezially where they faced only Vichy france troops they where highly effectiv, but ther still is a massiv step towards frontline combat.
And well, why have a dishardend factor so Osttruppen 'arend just grenadiers' because ther lower combat relaiabilety, but sitt ther and pretend that a civic millita is exactly that, just grenadiers~
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