How would you design an East Asian focused Paradox GSG?

[Traum77]

I've been thinking about this one for a while now. We had Sengoku in prelude to CK2's release, but otherwise all the Grand Strategy Games (GSGs) that Paradox has released have focused on Europe, or the world at large (or galaxy in the case of Stellaris). Notwithstanding some excellent mods that brought China into the CK2 world, and the Hordes/Mandate of Heaven DLCs, East Asia has always seemed to me like it was crying out for its own game.

So I wanted to put it out there: if Paradox were to develop a game focused in this area, how would you like to see it done? Which time period would you like it to focus on? What style would you like to see (CK2 characters, EU4 nations, Vic 2 pops)? What new or unique features do you think could make a game like this stand out?

Personally here's what I'd love to see:

Timeline: 900 - 1500 AD

Scope of Map: Tibet and Xinjiang to the northwest, Bangladesh and Eastern India to the southwest, Indonesia to the far south, Japan to the east, and Mongolia to the north. Would probably exclude Papua-New Guinea, but include Philippines too.

Play Mechanics: I think a CK2 approach makes the most sense, but we'd have to have some mechanics beyond the feudalism hierarchy that CK2 relies on to work. For instance in China a character wouldn't require land to exist, but could hold an important imperial post (Minister, Deputy Minister, Prefect, etc.) that may or may not have ties to land itself. The interplay between land-owning and sovereign powers could make for some interesting gameplay, especially as an Emperor/King. If landowners are responsible for paying taxes, but the court is responsible for spending them, it could be an interesting push-pull dynamic that I think Paradox could do a lot with.

Other Dynamics: The Mandate of Heaven DLC for EU4 is also a good basis for what could work in China (although I think the current implementation of MoH doesn't punish Ming nearly enough for low mandate). While I'm not super familiar with Korea, the Malaysian peninsula, or the islands (Philippines, Indonesia, Borneo, Brunei, etc.), obviously some dedicated nomadic horde mechanics would be required for the future Mongolian invasions. Similarly Japan went through some very big cultural changes with the rise of the samurai and eventual feudalisation. Not saying all those would need to be there for launch, but I feel like paving the way for them structurally would do the game a world of good.

Am I totally alone in this? Or would anyone else buy a game that had the ease of play and depth of a CK2/EU4, dedicated solely to East Asia? Also, what do you think of the marketing potential of a game like this? I've seen a few more posts highlighting the popularity of Paradox games in China and elsewhere, but I'm curious if this would make any financial sense for Paradox to actually dive into.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

I'd buy a Total War game just about the warring states era based on the manga kingdom.

 

[Susanna]

I think one focused on China's Warring States period could be very good, as well.

 

[Lukesandwich]

There is lots of potential in non Eurocentric games in general. Personally I advocate for city builder with the Mississippian culture.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

What we need is a Juche simulator where we can unite the Koreas

 

[icedt729]

A good East Asia GSG would need strong economic and government mechanics, and a real logistics system to show how Chinese power was bounded by geography. It would also need a very different approach to religion than the one that works for Christianity and Islam. I'd really like to see an East Asia game set during Late Antiquity, which would start around the fall of the Han, run through Three Kingdoms and the Wu Hu disorder, through to the golden age of Tang, Korea's Three Kingdoms and state-building in Japan. Another good candidate would be starting with the Northern Song and closing out with the Yuan, covering Goryeo and Heian-period Japan through the Gempei War and Mongol invasions.

 

[kal56]

I think it would most likely be set in a period of disunity in China, Warring States, Three Kingdoms or maybe Southern Song. Partly because these periods offer some more variety but also because pretty much every Paradox gsg is at it's core about becoming more powerful, normally by expanding.

If the game is nation focused (like EU, Vicky, Stellaris) playing as a China that's already the most powerful on the map will get boring and get steamrolled as minor neighbor will be equally unrewarding for most players. If they do go the nation route I'd hope they come up with mechanics that steer China on historical path without saddling it with debuffs that often feel arbitrary and unfair as has been the case in the past. A big help would be to make peace more exciting than it is in most of the other nation based games.

They could also go the more character or family driven route like CK but for that to work in an East Asian setting it couldn't be as tied to land as CK is and hopefully it would focus on more than just nobles and their families.

 

[MN121MN]

Well, to give some perspective on the islands, religion would play a pretty important role. The region faced changes in religious beliefs of the people, from Animinism to Hinduism, then Buddhism, before Islam spread across the region. Another difficulty is that there some important kingdoms that could exists in the time period has little historical evidence.

Personally, I would wish the game ends around the 1650s. Which is the rise of the Qings, strengthening of Dutch positions in Asia, and the arrival of the British into the scene.

 

[icedlemon]

I have always dreamed about a Vicky like game focus on the Warlord periods of China. The stage would be set at the moment after Yuan Shikai's death and his general's start to carve their own part of the cake and competing for the supremacy of China. The core gameplay would be playing as one of the warlords, develop your territory, build your army, expand through both military conquest and building alliances. there will be several things the player have to consider and balance:

1. Sell the sovereignty for foreign support. Mining rights, trade port, toll control, depends on where you rule , the player can sell what they have to the imperialist foreign powers in exchange for money or modern equipment, so they can gain an edge over their neighbors. the player can choose which foreign power they prefer as their 'patron', different imperialist nation offer different type of support while demanding different type of benefit in return. Some merely want trade privilege, like the US, while others might ultimately want to incorporate your land into theirs, like Japan. So, be careful what a deal you are striking with the devil.

2. Managing population support. the people under your rule have different ideological alignment and interest for you to protect, and those will change overtime. The landlord and aristocrat want you to honor the tradition and their traditional privilege, they will support you if you do so or will turn against you if you show too much sympathy to the newly established communism. The Chinese entrepreneurs will give you money and support if you protect their interest, but if your cater too much to the foreign power thus hurt their business, they will be angry and turn to finance your enemy. Some of your people only care what in front of them and don't really give a sh*t about whats happening outside of their village border, while others might be nationalistic and want to end the age of chaos to build a strong nation, thus they will abandon you if you show no ambition in uniting the nation. Muslim leaders like the Xibei San Ma will enjoy high support in islam dominated regions but less so when they expand to the Han Chinese territory while still trying to keep their muslim identities. As a warlord you can have varies ways to transform the composition of your subjects. Through political propaganda or build more education institution or establish more or reduce foreign contact.

3. Balance your own ambition with the wellbeing of the nation. You might be able to unite china through the most brutal conquest of all time, but if China become a ruin
after your conquest, you might not be able to defend against the final boss of the game, the looming threat of the Imperial Japan who want to end both your and your enemies' reign once for all.

 

[creativitypersonified]

Well I don't have much historical knowledge about the area but I would like a late medieval game about 1000-1400. The games map would cover Southeast Asia, Central Asia, china,Japan Siberia, Indonesia and the phillipines. I am reluctant to say India because I would like it to Be more focushed and to correctly represent India would be a lot of work. The game should focushed on the player gaining Controll of factions, kind of like ck2 , but not neccesarily nations. The most basic level would be playing as a countries ruling dynasty where you constantly need to maintain balance between different political entities in your realm. Developing your economy would be a big part of this. A more internal approach to ruling a nation would fit better, interactions with entities outside your nation would be done solely to gain a benefit in internal politics. But a player may also play as influential feudal lords where a different approach is needed. The goal would be to expand your dynasty and gain influence within a nation, or if you do well enough multiple nations. You will Be essentially playing a nation within a nation. But the option too cease Controll of an actuall nation is there for those strong enough. The game will need to give a lot of attention to central Asian horde federations. The time period covers the rise of the mongols after all. Playing as a horde you will face centralization issues and you will need to make nations lifes miserable to not devolve into anarchy. But hordes are also the only entity capable of large scale military conquest.

 

[Traum77]

A good East Asia GSG would need strong economic and government mechanics, and a real logistics system to show how Chinese power was bounded by geography. It would also need a very different approach to religion than the one that works for Christianity and Islam. I'd really like to see an East Asia game set during Late Antiquity, which would start around the fall of the Han, run through Three Kingdoms and the Wu Hu disorder, through to the golden age of Tang, Korea's Three Kingdoms and state-building in Japan. Another good candidate would be starting with the Northern Song and closing out with the Yuan, covering Goryeo and Heian-period Japan through the Gempei War and Mongol invasions.

I agree that the economy and government would need to be key. That's always been one of the big problems of Paradox's GSGs - the economy just kind of functions and outside of buildings to improve the player's income, nothing much changes, grows, or faces hardship. Even Vicky 2, which that had the best economic modelling system, wound up having only miniscule ways for the government/player to interact with the economy. Especially if China is a big part of the game (as I think it would have to be), you'd need to have an interesting internal mechanics to keep things fresh. A blend of CK2's revolts, EU4's religious factionalism/stability system, and an expanded Vic 2 economy/taxation systems, could provide a good base for managing a kingdom.

Well, to give some perspective on the islands, religion would play a pretty important role. The region faced changes in religious beliefs of the people, from Animinism to Hinduism, then Buddhism, before Islam spread across the region. Another difficulty is that there some important kingdoms that could exists in the time period has little historical evidence.

Personally, I would wish the game ends around the 1650s. Which is the rise of the Qings, strengthening of Dutch positions in Asia, and the arrival of the British into the scene.

That would make for some really interesting mechanics, for sure. Especially since the religion spreads would mostly be coming from off-map, they'd act a bit like the Mongol invasions of CK2 (which is one of my favourite parts). Could really cause some havoc.

The lack of historical evidence would definitely pose a problem, but CK2's earliest settings don't have a lot of evidence/data either, and they still work. I think it'd be important to focus on getting the surrounding nations balanced correctly related to the big elephant in the room, which is Europe for most of the games, and would likely be China for this one.

 

[wingren013]

I'd Iike to see something in Indochina with the various states jockeying for power and having to deal with the Chinese influence in the region and eventual European traders. timeline would be something like 1200-1700

 

[MN121MN]

I actually forgot this, but if this game is going to be based on CK2, then bringing the team from CK2 who worked on Sengoku would be quite nice, especially as Sengoku supposedly happens until the late 1600s.

 

[AndrejK]

We should somehow include the mandala mechanics of Indochina

 

[Slime99]

I did this map for some reason. IK, it's crappy AF but here ya go I guess
https://imgur.com/gallery/GuSv5

 

[Traum77]

I did this map for some reason. IK, it's crappy AF but here ya go I guess
https://imgur.com/gallery/GuSv5

Ah that's perfect! 1200 is definitely an interesting timeframe with the rise of the Mongols and the Song dynasty holding on in the south. Playing as Genghis or Kublai would be awesome. Could complicate things too though, as so much of their conquering was directed west, which would be offmap for a game like this. But still, it would work as a good starting point.

 

[Slime99]

Here's a finished province map https://imgur.com/gallery/58eyr. Do whatever you want with it.

 

[wingren013]

Why include literally all of Asia? at that point you may as well include Europe. Asia has these nice convenient natural barriers that allow you to realistically cut off parts of the map. Better to make a focused game that portrays one area in a high level of detail.

 

[icedt729]

Here's a finished province map https://imgur.com/gallery/58eyr. Do whatever you want with it.

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I've been wanting to fiddle with CK2 modding in East Asia for ages but have always been stuck on making a decent map.

 

[Alehkra]

Why include literally all of Asia? at that point you may as well include Europe. Asia has these nice convenient natural barriers that allow you to realistically cut off parts of the map. Better to make a focused game that portrays one area in a high level of detail.

I really hate to say it, because I actually really like the idea of a game encompassing all of East Asia, but you have a good point there. I was actually thinking that part of the problem with an East Asian game is what time period to set it in. Granted, outside of China and Japan I'm not terribly familiar with East Asian history, but at least with those two, the most interesting parts of their history tend to be about internal issues. Barring a few obvious exceptions, international events usually aren't taking center stage. Mostly, I think, because of China. When you have such a big, culturally dominant power around for at least a couple thousand years, they tend to pretty well occupy everyone else's attention, and the times when that breaks down are generally because of internal events or trends in China. So most of the time periods we choose are naturally based on what's going on in China. But just because the Three Kingdoms period is fascinating and deserves a game in it's own right, doesn't necessarily make it interesting to play anywhere else. I couldn't really speak for Korea or any of the other Southeast countries during the time period, but at least anyone who wanted to play in Japan would be frustrated, mostly because it was still in the process of becoming a thing, and the oldest Japanese sources for the time were basically just making shit up.

I think, weirdly, Western GSGs kind of have an advantage in this regard. If an amateur interest in history has taught me anything it's that Europeans up until just recently spent most of their time thinking about how best to kill the other Europeans, and they spent so much time beating each other up that international strategy just plain becomes more exciting than "Do whatever I can to not piss off China while doing my thing, unless they're weak and/or I'm Genghis Khan".