M18 Hellcat is the best tank of WW2 according to Steel Division: Normandy 44

[fightinheckfish]

Historically, the heavy losses of German armor on the offensive in World War Two are accurate. The Panther et all were fairly effective on the defensive when they could get in first shots from concealment or cover, but on the offensive again, Mortain, Arracourt, and the Bulge being fairly representative, they didn't go so good.

The Hellcat works more or less as intended, it can shoot you and opt to leave if it feels it is not in a good place. If you do anything to get it into an engagement area in which it doesn't have standoff or a place to run, it doesn't live very long.

It might be a little OP simply for how many you can get and how early. But the idea of Teutonic Panzer Knights rolling over anything in their way isn't representative of historical reality, and a lot of the German armor died exactly how the critical hit system works, non-penetrating, or spalling type hits that disabled the tank enough for it to be unable to continue the mission, or forced to be abandoned.

 

[Leenday]

It is OP because of multiple reasons:

First of all, right now armor number does not matter - if you are hit and penetrated, you most likely will have crits and won't be dead, no matter of overpenetration.
With the reason above in mind, a duel of Panther and Hellcat is not about armor. Hellcat could be 13/10 instead of 13/4 and nothing would change.
And if it isn't about armor, it is for sure about the speed of a shot alignment. And Hellcat is much better in this.

Now it is never a duel of tanks and it's never an ideal fight. But you can deploy on average 2 Hellcats in A and 6 Hellcats in B resulting in 8 throughout the game, each costs 110pt. You can't compare it to phase-B/C-only Panthers with 250/280pt cost which also don't come in numbers.

I also want to admit the fact that I only made this thread because Hellcats murder phase A for germans, but it seems like all this 4.AD situation is hurtful not only for me. So let all the people bring here their point, so maybe devs will change something.

P.S. So I've read some stuff down this thread which 4.AD defenders have written and I thought why not test it myself.
So I played 4.AD today ranked, first time it and first time Allied side. Made up something that looks like a deck and after 24 minutes of queueing (wow, so much people want to face allies) I finally found a game against a very decent player. I handicapped myself by never using artillery to make the game more fair but it ended up with me holding 60% territory the whole game anyway.
Still feeling dirty after this. Also if you're reading this, sorry for playing a noob deck. I was checking if this is pay to win, and it actually is.
Rip this guy's fun 2018-2018.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

The closest thing a hellcat has to compete with to a heavy tank in phase A is the firefly in any case, and the marauder is extremely powerful against the other axis 1200m options in phase A. Eugen has decided to give the division with the best 1200m phase A firepower cheap infantry, marauders which are very hard to shoot down and can easily stun marders and pak tracks.

In general, I think Eugen has given away way too much 1200m firepower to allied divisions in phase A, particularly HE support tanks which makes playing most axis infantry divisions almost unviable in wide open maps.

I've run a number of skirmish games testing out the current version, and I've come to pretty much to a similar conclusion. The core issue is that 4AD has early advantages, and is simply a strong lineup overall. GA has some of the advantages, thinking of the CS Cromwells, but it also has enough limitations to prevent it from being overly powerful. 4AD on the other hand, is just a bit too good, too early, and follows up with lots of the same. The Hellcats in themselves aren't the game winners, but in combo with those other things, they do give the deck a strong backbone very early...that said though, I consider it a payback for that Beute Firefly in phase A when the brits don't get one (personal gripe over the Mers el Kebir payback by Eugen).

 

[fightinheckfish]

If we are going to talk about things that were pure bull feces, it was that Beute Firefly. Clearly the finest German tank of the war that there.

I think two Hellcats in phase A is a bit much, simply because it lets you spread them around/makes it less risky to push it. I think one is better because it means there's someplace on the map that doesn't have a Hellcat/killing it makes Phase A more complicated for 4 AD.

Otherwise, against Phase B/C it's not the potent kill everything weapon some folks seem to fear it is.

 

[Gilmund]

I like beute shermans or Hellcats in A. It makes the games interesting. Beute firefly isn't really fast nor precise. Trouble is hellcat do have cheap cost, great speed and great turret. Which is too big an advantage only for an opened roof and a low frontal armor.
Double phase A hellcats are not op by themselves, the prob is mostly they only cost 110 points and you may get them along other things. One per tick + one infantry each thick in B and C.
Considering 3rd Armored get two 130 points phase A M4A1 with only 70 points in phase A, hellcats may get nerfed to 130-150 points (M10 tank destroyer cost 125) and still stay cheap and early 76mm.
With a nerf on hellcats, another nerf on B-26 cost (130 to 150) and ammo is enough to balance 4AD. Just give enough ammo to B-26 to make 1-2 runs, not 3 or 4.

 

[clabinsky1]

A possible reason why 4AD hasn't been nerfed more may be because the better players tend not to play it. In fact, I'm not a great player, but I won't play 4AD because it feels like cheating and I prefer a challenge. Eugen looks at stats and if few of the best players uses the division, it's stats may be misrepresented.

So, please all strong players, go ahead and play it as much as possible to ensure that it's stats are accurate for Eugen to balance it.

 

[Leenday]

Otherwise, against Phase B/C it's not the potent kill everything weapon some folks seem to fear it is.

Hellcat isn't a killing machine on B/C, but by this time the game is over in most cases. Speaking of Beute Firefly - when I first found it in the battlegroups, it was strange for me too, like what is this doing here and how germans tend to find a new Beute Firefly. Awkward indeed in case of explaining why and how, in-game it costs like 2 Hellcats, and Hellcats can bait it for a 1 for 1 trade. So nothing much.

 

[fightinheckfish]

Like I'm saying, one Hellcat (maybe one star for LOL) in Phase A seems reasonable. It gives an interesting capability, but you get no redundancy. It's still not historically weird because the US pushed SP AT with the scout/cav elements fairly often, but it's something you have to keep safe/can't cover as much ground with. The weaker armor keeps it from being the mess that the Beute Firefly used to be. Keep the price the same as in B/C it's a mighty nice little AT vehicle with some serious liabilities that keep it from being overpowering.

You strip the Hellcats out of 4th AD's Phase A entirely, without real tanks (besides Abrams) you've got a pretty lame Phase A "armored" unit.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Hellcat isn't a killing machine on B/C, but by this time the game is over in most cases. Speaking of Beute Firefly - when I first found it in the battlegroups, it was strange for me too, like what is this doing here and how germans tend to find a new Beute Firefly. Awkward indeed in case of explaining why and how, in-game it costs like 2 Hellcats, and Hellcats can bait it for a 1 for 1 trade. So nothing much.

My point isn't balance, my point on that firefly is that the Brits don't get one. Why not give any of the allied armoured divs a panther in phase A?...or, better yet, in view of this thread, give a german division a beute hellcat? I'm sure that if they found one that had actually been used and not wrecked, they might have used it, perhaps...that would seem good enough to include it.

 

[Nordhammer]

My point isn't balance, my point on that firefly is that the Brits don't get one. Why not give any of the allied armoured divs a panther in phase A?...or, better yet, in view of this thread, give a german division a beute hellcat? I'm sure that if they found one that had actually been used and not wrecked, they might have used it, perhaps...that would seem good enough to include it.

PRO WO171/336, War Diary of 30 Corps "G" for June 1944.
"Appendix 'B' to & AD Intsum 30
REPORT ON CROMWELL TANK WITH GERMAN MARKINGS.
Found 4 Jul 44 at 905657 Recovered by an Armd Div REME and inspected BRETTEVILLE L'ORGUEILLEUSE 923720 5 Jul 44.
1. Type Cromwell CS Mk IV (95mm gun)
2. Markings (a) German cross on front and side of turret
(b) British markings painted over with cam paint but the following clearly visible:
T187761 1 LCT
3. Condition Penetrated in eight places by what looks like 17 pdr but NOT set on fire. REME reports that NO KO'd Cromwells handled have been set on fire.
4. Modifications
(a) Cupola previously reported as German is definitely British.
(b) German wireless aparatus (thought to be an inter-comm aparatus only).
5. Amn Confirmed that some German amn for main armament was in the tank.
6. Documents Following found in tank:
Identification: 12 SS Pz Div
FPN : 59043 A
7. General Tank definitely did not belong to the Div that found it. No information available as to who knocked it out or when.
(Source: 8 Corps IS No. 11)
COMMENTS: This tank was lost at VILLERS BOCAGE on June 13."


The inclusion of the beute Firefly & Cromwell adds a bit of historical & game flavor. Villers-Bocage provided the Germans with quite a few British vehicles.

There is no reported use of a captured Mk V within the game's time frame by Allied units,the semi famous "Cuckoo" was put into use after 'Market Garden'.

I've not found any record of an captured M18 GMC..but if there was it would have been long after Normandy.
Captured M10 GMCs were put into service in Italy and during 'Watch on the Rhine'...but not in Normandy.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

That was a tongue in cheek comment in relation to the grounds for including some of those 'interesting' units. If there is a western desert dlc, I anticipate that Aust 9 Div should have at least 1/3 of all units equipped with extra (Italian) MG and light support weapons, and if a Tobruk period game, a battalion of Matilda 2's, and twice as much arty availability, using the same logic. I'm not denying use, I'm simply talking of 'when', though.

The core of the matter is that certain German divs get allied gear in phase A, when the allied divs don't get them till phase B. I'm wondering whether it's simply an extension of the overall peak issue availability problem that exists in phase A, which may be an indication of a game design arms race problem, "we've put X in such and such, so we need to balance that with W and Y in these other divs".

 

[Gilmund]

That was a tongue in cheek comment in relation to the grounds for including some of those 'interesting' units. If there is a western desert dlc, I anticipate that Aust 9 Div should have at least 1/3 of all units equipped with extra (Italian) MG and light support weapons, and if a Tobruk period game, a battalion of Matilda 2's, and twice as much arty availability, using the same logic. I'm not denying use, I'm simply talking of 'when', though.

The core of the matter is that certain German divs get allied gear in phase A, when the allied divs don't get them till phase B. I'm wondering whether it's simply an extension of the overall peak issue availability problem that exists in phase A, which may be an indication of a game design arms race problem, "we've put X in such and such, so we need to balance that with W and Y in these other divs".

And allies get 65 points cheap armor like stuarts, great 50 cal, with nothing alike on the german side. A peak unit is always a peak unit in relation to others, you canno't delete every peak unit until going for 10 points standard riflemen for everyone which makes no sense.
This allied gear (beute shermans, fireflys, cromwell) is made to answer to decks like GA along other units like marders to keep allies at bay before the big cats. I don't see what's wrong with it.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

And allies get 65 points cheap armor like stuarts, great 50 cal, with nothing alike on the german side. A peak unit is always a peak unit in relation to others, you canno't delete every peak unit until going for 10 points standard riflemen for everyone which makes no sense.
This allied gear (beute shermans, fireflys, cromwell) is made to answer to decks like GA along other units like marders to keep allies at bay before the big cats. I don't see what's wrong with it.

Phase A was sold to us as being the recon/light forces meeting engagement phase...kind of fed a load of BS when we consider that real peak units are appearing, that's what's wrong with it.

 

[Fussel]

Phase A was sold to us as being the recon/light forces meeting engagement phase...kind of fed a load of BS when we consider that real peak units are appearing, that's what's wrong with it.

Yes and that is why it is not justifiable in my opinion to hold back on axis equipment in some divisions till the very latest phase when allies get all the good stuff right from the start. And we all know how important the early game is.

 

[Gilmund]

Phase A was sold to us as being the recon/light forces meeting engagement phase...kind of fed a load of BS when we consider that real peak units are appearing, that's what's wrong with it.

75/76mm guns in A are rare and coslty for the phase, so dangerous to loose if not used properly. The two hellcats are too cheap but this is the only unit in that case. Consequently the 12thSS is in bad shape if you brought and loose the 200+ Beute firefly in A phase.
I don't know. To meet and think how to destroy some phase A unit with better ap value and armor value than your units makes the game interesting, forces you to get side shots. What's dumb is to create mirror copies of decks and annihilate any creation of strategies.
And frankly who wants 10min of recon/inf engagement in 40mingames, i surely don't. Give me 1h30 of games and maybe.

 

[Karlburg]

I don't actually think a rookie panther D in phase A would be game-breaking in the current environment.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Now, this...this I would like in phase A. Australian prototype Sentinel IVA, 'cruiser' tank, mounting a 17lbr, with auto-loader (with 18 ready rounds), gyro-stab, electric traverse. It was discontinued before mid-43, and was the spiritual fore-runner to the Firefly. The use of the 17lbr was important to the debate of mounting it into the Sherman. It was also planned to develop a IVE model, mounting a 25lbr.

 

[Miskyavine]

I don't actually think a rookie panther D in phase A would be game-breaking in the current environment.

Or hear me out 12SS firefly to phase B and Whitman to phase A. but i also think every armored deck that has Panzer 4s should have a few in Phase A. And i defenitely think 21st Vet 2 Panzer 4Gs card should be Phase A

 

[Lews Therin]

Or hear me out 12SS firefly to phase B and Whitman to phase A. but i also think every armored deck that has Panzer 4s should have a few in Phase A. And i defenitely think 21st Vet 2 Panzer 4Gs card should be Phase A

2 star Tiger in phase A would be gamebreaking.

 

[Karlburg]

Or hear me out 12SS firefly to phase B and Whitman to phase A. but i also think every armored deck that has Panzer 4s should have a few in Phase A. And i defenitely think 21st Vet 2 Panzer 4Gs card should be Phase A

No. That's dumb. Well, the first part. Giving out panzer IVs in phase A seems fine to me.