CK2 Dev Diary #78 - Polishing up the Map

[compano]

looks good

 

[Chekow]

Polishing the map is a great idea! I love it!

Please also add Lake Balaton to Hungary. It is the largest lake in Central Europe and one of the most defining feature of Hungary. It has such a unique shape. The lack of It pokes my eyeballs every time I start to play CK2.

 

[Lissimus]

I agree with the others that also other parts of Europe needs a rework, not only poland. I am missing a lot of Rivers, which are already part of EU 4 like the Mulde or the Weser. Also the Rhine and the Seine are looking quite weird (see pictures, the river part is not touching the "ocean"-part, but it is next to it instead). A west, cenral and east "Europe"-Map overhaul would be great. I mean, Köln (Cologne) is to 90 % on the left side of the rhine, since it was a roman fort, but on the map it is on the right side.

 

[Karolu]

Finaly Lublin

 

[Valtarien]

Deleted and moved to a thread in the Suggestions forum for CK2, where my post fits better.

 

[Keizer Harm]

-snip-

Would be awesome if we could get a search syntax, so you can just type in "Abbasid !ambitious zealous (diplo-edu>3|martial-edu>2) stewardship>13 sum-of-scores>50 !in-my-court".

 

[Valtarien]

Deleted and moved to a thread in the Suggestions forum for CK2, where my post fits better.

 

[Zayd]

What is next to China?......Oh yes Japan is coming

 

[Goldwasser]

I wonder, if this provincial update would conflict with EUIV save converter?

 

[Oliver*]

Could you please consider giving France more provinces, Poland had a very low population per sq. km, the pre plague estimate by Josiah Cox Russell is about 6. Compared to 16 for HRE (not including Italy), and 33 for France.

 

[Thure]

Could you please consider giving France more provinces, Poland had a very low population per sq. km, the pre plague estimate by Josiah Cox Russell is about 6. Compared to 16 for HRE (not including Italy), and 33 for France.

That would be holdings, not provinces.

 

[Oliver*]

That would be holdings, not provinces.

De ja vu lol, the thread is about provinces though so i thought it would be appropriate.

 

[theKing1988]

Could you please consider giving France more provinces, Poland had a very low population per sq. km, the pre plague estimate by Josiah Cox Russell is about 6. Compared to 16 for HRE (not including Italy), and 33 for France.

You are feeling patriotic, and that's fine. But if everything were based on population numbers alone, the Muslim, Orthodox and Hindu parts of the map would need +100-200 provinces. The disparity between provinces and population numbers are way worse in the east. Do you see Paradox adding that anytime soon? Also, you are still ignoring that just giving France provinces, would throw off the balance in the region, the sorrounding regions would need to be given provinces too

 

[Oliver*]

You are feeling patriotic, and that's fine. But if everything were based on population numbers alone, the Muslim, Orthodox and Hindu parts of the map would need +200-300 provinces. The disparity between provinces and population numbers are way worse in the east. Do you see Paradox adding that anytime soon?

I'm not French, i don't expect them to get it on point but France seems to be neglected. I'm fully aware of the disproportionate amount of European provinces, but this thread is about Europe, so imo France should be considered when discussing new European provinces.

 

[theKing1988]

No, this thread is about Poland. Users are going off-topic, because they see CK2 Devs replying and they jump at the opportunity to get direct communication with them.

Also i'm sure France is being considered, but considering changing France alone and not doing anything to the sorrounding regions would be a mistake, because the sorrounding regions (Spain, Italy, Germany, Britain, North Africa) needs the attention just as much. It's not as fun focusing on the big picture, rather than everyone's favourite regions, i know. But Paradox has to focus on the map as a whole.

 

[Oliver*]

No, this thread is about Poland. Users are going off-topic, because they see CK2 Devs replying and they jump at the opportunity to get direct communication with them.

Also i'm sure France is being considered, but considering changing France alone and not doing anything to the sorrounding regions would be a mistake, because the sorrounding regions (Spain, Italy, Germany, Britain, North Africa) needs the attention just as much. It's not as fun focusing on the big picture, rather than everyone's favourite regions, i know. But Paradox has to focus on the map as a whole.

I understand, my opinions have changed since the suggestion thread. I'll leave that up to the devs for balance, France should be considered. I also don't consider France my favorite region, i personally think it is quite boring to play, and has limited opportunities. Most of my playtime has been in the HRE or Nordic countries.

 

[Ruwaard]

That would be holdings, not provinces.

De ja vu lol, the thread is about provinces though so i thought it would be appropriate.

IMHO it always is a combination of both. Certain regions might benefit from a bit more provinces with a lower holding density, whereas other regions could have relatively fewer provinces with a higher holding density.

 

[Oliver*]

I hope people understand this is not about favorite region, but which region needs it most. I urge everyone to do some research with multiple sources and compare population to holdings. In terms of pre plague population France is without a doubt the most under represented region in Europe. Iberia is a distant second. I don't understand the anti French sentiment in these forums, it has a lot of potential to be a very fun important nation.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

I hope people understand this is not about favorite region, but which region needs it most. I urge everyone to do some research with multiple sources and compare population to holdings. In terms of pre plague population France is without a doubt the most under represented region in Europe. Iberia is a distant second. I don't understand the anti french sentiment in these forums, it has a lot of potential to be a very fun important nation.

The point regarding population King1988 made though is true in the sense that holdings represent economic strength/potential and not population.
So it would be better to speak of that, but even then France is still underrepresented in my opinion as well and as you suggest.

On the other hand it could probably also do with more buildings build already at the start compared to other regions, instead of increasing the holdings number.

Everyone seems to be afraid of the potential great blue blob.

 

[elvain]

I urge everyone to do some research with multiple sources and compare population to holdings. In terms of pre plague population France is without a doubt the most under represented region in Europe. Iberia is a distant second. I don't understand the anti French sentiment in these forums, it has a lot of potential to be a very fun important nation.

While ago I did and you are partially right, though my primary research was about something else, I used similar approach, and you can see the results here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nt-wrong-with-ck2-islam.982579/#post-22098470

Or the crucial point briefly:

Spoiler

Population /historical estimates:

Spoiler

Maghreb - estimated population 5 million in early 11th century, after 1055 steep decline then stagnation with slow rise in some areas, in other slow decline to some 3,8 millions in 1500
Egypt - in 8th century some 3 millions, around 1000AD - some 5 millions and then decline to cca 4 millions
Syria+Palestine - some 3-4 millions+0,5 in Palestine in 8th century*, some 1,5-2,7+0,5 around 1000AD and 4+0,5 in circa the late 12th century

all these may be underestimated, because they count with relatively low city populations, which might add some additional 1/2m to each Egypt and Syria and some 300K to Maghreb

Iberia is said to have circa 7 millions in the 9th century, around 9 millions in 1000AD, some 8 millions in later 11th century and then to decrease to 6 in 1300 and then rise to 8,5 in 1500
For France estimates are cca 7 millions in 850, 9 millions around 1000AD, 16 millions in mid 13th century to 18+ just before the Black death.
Italy had roughly some 3,5-4 millions in 9th century, 5-5,8 millions in 1000AD and peaked around 12.5 millions before the Black death.

Comparison: historical population per holding and/or province:

Spoiler

Then compare it with number of holdings (either maximal potential and in certain bookmarks) :
- France has 276 potential holdings, 178 of them built in 867 - that is some 65K per potential holding in max and 39K in 867. 310/120K per province
- Italy has 236 potential holdings, 167 of them built in 867 - that is some 53K per potential holding, 21K in 867. Per province it's 240/67K.
- Iberia has 260 potential holdings 195 built in 867 - that is 34K per potential holding and 35K in 867. 147/115K per province
- North Africa: 146 potential, 119 in 867. That is 34K per potential and cca 33K in 867. 147/117K per province
- Syria+Palestine*: 177 potential and 127 in 867. That is 28K per potential and 31K in 867. 113/90K per province
- Syria itself: 101 potential and 72 holdings in 867, in 24 provinces. That is 44K per potential and 45K in 867. 187/137K per province.
- Egypt: 77 potential and 58 holdings in 867, in 18 provinces. That is 71K per potential 68K in 867. 305/222K per province.

* let's take these 2 together - despite Syria had about 80% of their shared population, in CK2 Palestine has almost as many holdings as Syria. That is of course because if they were realistic, the Crusader KoJ would have no chance of survival.

looking at some of CK2 regions in both Europe and Middle East and sorting them from the most overpowered to the least overpowered in terms of manpower, this is what we get for 867:
Palestine (by far the most OP) > Italy > Bohemia > North Iberia > Maghreb > Greece+Bulgaria > France > South Iberia > Iraq > Syria > Egypt > Anatolia

Though this wasn't meant to prove that some region should get more or less provinces, but rather to prove that CK2 doesn't follow population. And if you read that first post of quoted thread, you'd see that it works rather the oposite way: The regions which are most underpowered in terms of population/provinces(holdings) are those most powerfull in the game, so as all others say, population is the least valid argument for adding or removing provinces in CK2.

I would support your claim that France deserves few more provinces. It indeed does. But if looking around the map, at Germany, Spain or North Africa, It is the last region which needs some love. Just look at Germany or North Africa - they need the map to be reworked way more than France does.