Does the reconquista succeed in ck2+?

[Deranfan]

In vanilla Asturias normally gets overrun by the Umayyad and sometimes they even start invading France. So, I wanted to know if Asturias got buffed or Umayyad nerfed. It would be nice to see the Catholics recapture Iberia for once or at least half of it.

 

[FakeShady]

any start from 1066 onwards, Catholics usually win Iberia eventually. Can't speak for early start dates though

 

[a1b2c3d4e5f6]

Asturias definitely has a better chance in Plus, the Umayyads get a new set of Taifa laws that are detrimental to them (starting level gives them -20 relations to feudal vassals and -10 vassal limit (making them go over the limit)).

While it's true that level 2 of the law removes penalties it takes time and resources to enact them.

The best way to play as Asturias is to get an alliance with the Karlings (betroth his daughter) and attack the Ummayads, after you get back a few duchies (and the Karlings'll also probably take some from them) you'll be able to stand on your own (by then the Karlings will either explode or form an empire).

EDIT: I'm taking about the earliest dates.

 

[pottypie]

I've seen them pull back in both 769 and 867, although it's very rare in 769. Most of the time, Asturias just gets sliced in half by a holy war, then gobbled up by Umayyad dukes.
867 tends to be more even, with Asturias at least surviving thanks to the Karlings going down the east coast, and the fact they have more land. I've seen them die off, but more frequently I see them prosper.
Of course, massive screw ups like having their realm get the Kingdom of Galacia followed by splitting up between two shitty kids does tend to result in rapid death, but that's true of most places.
EDIT: Had a look through my screenshots, I've only actually got one of Spain from a pre-1000 bookmark, and it's a weird one, but it shows that Asturias has succeeded in beginning to reconquer Spain.

 

[Deranfan]

Yes, the old gods start is more balanced, but I was referring more to Charlemagne.

It would be nice if they buffed Asturias in the 769 start. Adding higher attrition to the mountain areas or reworking the kingdom de jure map so Asturias doesn’t get the -75% levy penalty would be a good start.

Normally I use a steam workshop mod simply called Asturias buffed, but sadly it isn’t compatible.

 

[a1b2c3d4e5f6]

Yes, the old gods start is more balanced, but I was referring more to Charlemagne.

It would be nice if they buffed Asturias in the 769 start. Adding higher attrition to the mountain areas or reworking the kingdom de jure map so Asturias doesn’t get the -75% levy penalty would be a good start.

Normally I use a steam workshop mod simply called Asturias buffed, but sadly it isn’t compatible.

I was mainly talking about 769.

 

[LordPeter]

It would be nice if they buffed Asturias in the 769 start.

I am not against a buff, but it would need to be reasonable. And tbh, Asturias in 769 is a hard start, if history hadn't be lenient at times the Reconquista might never have happened. We can't buff everyone to facilitate historical outcomes; some areas are harder than others.

Adding higher attrition to the mountain areas

How would that help? AI can't cope with attrition well, so both sides would be affected. Also, most mountain provinces are on the Muslim side, so imo it wouldn't really help in 769. Not to mention that Plus already has lower supply limits than vanilla.

or reworking the kingdom de jure map so Asturias doesn’t get the -75% levy penalty

Where does it get that penalty? And what do you mean with reworking the de_jure map - how should it be changed in your opinion?

Normally I use a steam workshop mod simply called Asturias buffed, but sadly it isn’t compatible.

Yeah, most mods are incompatible. Though honestly I think a solution like that one is pretty bad: That mod just gives you money and troops out of thin air, for no apparent reason? Of course everyone can mod as they please, but in Plus you won't see sth like this.

I might sound harsh, it's not meant like that. If you have a balance suggestion that is immersive, by all means say so.
But at present I don't see anything particular that is wrong.
And there are already some thing in the mod about Spain - for example, unlike vanilla we have a special Reconquista CB! That should already help Christians out a lot.

 

[Garbon]

I am not against a buff, but it would need to be reasonable. And tbh, Asturias in 769 is a hard start, if history hadn't be lenient at times the Reconquista might never have happened. We can't buff everyone to facilitate historical outcomes; some areas are harder than others.

While I understand that, one IMO critical piece that isn't really modelled is the fact that the Muslims didn't have much interest in taking over Asturian lands. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what if anything can be done about that given how CK2 works.

 

[Deranfan]

I am not against a buff, but it would need to be reasonable. And tbh, Asturias in 769 is a hard start, if history hadn't be lenient at times the Reconquista might never have happened. We can't buff everyone to facilitate historical outcomes; some areas are harder than others.

I get that it should be difficult for the player, but not much for the AI. I don’t have a problem with an Islamic Iberia, but not every game. In vanilla they get defeated pretty easily.

How would that help? AI can't cope with attrition well, so both sides would be affected. Also, most mountain provinces are on the Muslim side, so imo it wouldn't really help in 769. Not to mention that Plus already has lower supply limits than vanilla.

I was thinking more about defensive attrition like pagans. Asturias is mostly just a bunch of big mountains not worth conquering.

Where does it get that penalty? And what do you mean with reworking the de_jure map - how should it be changed in your opinion?

"Liege Levy Modifier"

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...t_noticed_something_about_asturias_and_other/

“This makes Asturias an absolute nightmare to play because they basically suffer a massive -75% vassal levies modifier on pretty much every vassal they have, simply because Asturias is, de-jure, a 2 county Duchy/Kingdom. On the contrary, the Umayyads is in fact the Kingdom of Andalusia, wich is massive in comparison. “

Im not sure if this got changed already.

Yeah, most mods are incompatible. Though honestly I think a solution like that one is pretty bad: That mod just gives you money and troops out of thin air, for no apparent reason? Of course everyone can mod as they please, but in Plus you won't see sth like this.

I might sound harsh, it's not meant like that. If you have a balance suggestion that is immersive, by all means say so.
But at present I don't see anything particular that is wrong.
And there are already some thing in the mod about Spain - for example, unlike vanilla we have a special Reconquista CB! That should already help Christians out a lot.

The mod I referenced is for the AI. I ran some test games with it and they still got overrun most of the time.
I’m currently playing a game started in 769 and Asturias lost Galicia early in the game and then got split in two. They are only surviving now because they became a tributary state of the Carolingian empire.

 

[LordPeter]

I was thinking more about defensive attrition like pagans. Asturias is mostly just a bunch of big mountains not worth conquering.

Hmm, yeah that might be an idea. We'll see how that could be implemented, as we can't just apply it via religion (which is stupid anyway imo, it's the terrain and not the spirituality that makes a terrain hard to conquer).

"Liege Levy Modifier"

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...t_noticed_something_about_asturias_and_other/

“This makes Asturias an absolute nightmare to play because they basically suffer a massive -75% vassal levies modifier on pretty much every vassal they have, simply because Asturias is, de-jure, a 2 county Duchy/Kingdom. On the contrary, the Umayyads is in fact the Kingdom of Andalusia, wich is massive in comparison. “

Im not sure if this got changed already.

I see.
But CK2+ is vastly different to vanilla, we have at least like six new provinces in Spain irrc, and a different deJure setup in most of the map. Maybe check whether this is actually the case in this mod as well.

 

[Ed Mike]

(...) one IMO critical piece that isn't really modelled is the fact that the Muslims didn't have much interest in taking over Asturian lands. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what if anything can be done about that given how CK2 works.

Wouldn't help if the game made Asturias pay tribute to Andalusia?
For what I recall, the AI is less inclined to declare war to their tributaries.
And that was what happened for a long time irl: the Muslim rulers weren't too kin in risking men against a desperate enough last Christian kingdom just to overtake a land that wasn't considered that attractive for them in the first place and the Asturian rulers kept those who would beg to differ at bay by a mix of tributes and alliances/marriages with bordering Muslim powers. I don't think CK2, be it vanilla or plus, could replicate the alliances and the extraoridnary but helpful interfaith marriages (interfaith marriages, in the game, are for everyone or no one), but wouldn't being a tributary prevent (or reduce the chance) of the main Muslin rulers declaring a Holy War?

Otherwise, is there a way to make the coding so the kings/emperors of Andalusia are more inclined to use war against Asturias to make them pay tributes than to conquer the lands?

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

Non-aggression pacts don't require marriages anymore, so you could have an event fire whenever the ruler of Asturias or Andalusia dies that has the two re-evaluate their stance on the other nation (along with adjacent Muslim vassals) and create nonaggression pacts between them. If a Muslim ruler is greedy/brave/zealous/ambitious and has a stable realm, they might decide that they want to try to take Asturias, but if they're content, cynical, charitable, kind, or cowardly, or Asturias has a powerful ally/is in a relatively strong position they might decide it's not worth it to attack them. Likewise, a weak Asturias will want to accept any chance of their own survival and avoid angering their neighbor, while a strong one will be more willing to push their borders. If Asturias gains land in Iberia, the event won't fire again until they've been pushed back into their starting situation and the ruler of Andalusia dies.

 

[ft9a]

Just me; from 3 short play troughs at 769 up to 804 AD. 1st I noticed that actually Asturias took over 4/5's of Iberia by 804. 2nd play through they remained the same original size. 3rd one, they remained the same original size. Of course, this is a small sample size, who knows what happens in 200 hundred years. Also, noticed when Charlemagne kills his brother, he always inherits this one county in Iberia between Asturias and the Muslims beneath the Pyrenees.

But what I like about the mod, having only played it a couple of Months, is that AI kingdoms have less border gore. Seems like they are smarter in handing out titles when they get too big.

 

[LordPeter]

I think there have been made minor tweaks to improve the situation, but idk if they are in a released version yet.
Nothing major, but might already improve things.

 

[vukica]

No, i just forced muslims to avoid holy wars on the peninsula (reduced chace to 10%) they can still use conventional cbs there.

 

[pottypie]

As a postscript to my previous reply, this is a screenie from my current game from a 769 start.
Suffice to say it kind of shows that even from the poorest of starts, they have a chance.

 

[vukica]

Great, now I can safely ignore this thread.

 

[LordPeter]

No, i just forced muslims to avoid holy wars on the peninsula (reduced chace to 10%) they can still use conventional cbs there.

Ah yeah that was it.