[Submod] Germanic/Norse Pagans Join on Reformation

[BrokenSky]

The dedicated thread for the submod which came out of this thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/germanic-norse-paganism-split.1049855/

For the sake of example I'm going to be describing what happens when Germanic reforms (or reforms first if both reform), but it works the same way for Norse, only with the religions switched.
In the current version:
When Germanic reforms, a few days later [originally it was instant, but the AI was able to go through the event so fast that it would trigger the original reformation event too, since that checks for religions which are a heresy of the new reformed religion] the reformer gets an event which makes Norse a heresy of reformed Germanic and gives Norse rulers the opportunity to switch religion. Holy Orders (e.g. Jomsvikings) will remain part of their old faith.
Norse rulers get an event allowing them to swap to reformed Germanic, along with their courts and their capital province. At the moment the AI will take this option 75% of the time regardless of other factors.
Norse (now Old Norse) rulers are still unreformed pagans (and suffer the limitations to embracing feudalism etc. as normal).
If an Old Norse ruler meets the requirements, they can reform their religion. This will make Old Norse a Reformed Norse heresy. A few days later they will get an event, which makes Reformed Norse (and old norse) a heresy of Reformed Germanic. Holy Orders will remain part of their old faith. Rulers will not be given the opportunity to convert to Reformed Norse (though due to how the reformation events work, old norse rulers will have had the opportunity to convert to reformed norse when the reformation happened).
[Not tested] If one of the Heresies becomes the dominant religion I expect the Holy Orders will be moved to the new Dominant religion.

Currently open for testing. Please post bug reports and suggestions here.

Extract and put both files in the documents/paradox interactive/crusader kings II/mod folder. Run with CK2+ 4.07 Beta 4.

EDIT: for use with later versions of CK2+, including the full release version of CK2+ 4.07 "Europe", please refer to later versions, posted later in this thread.

 

[Carmir23]

Thanks!

 

[BrokenSky]

New update for a version compatible with CK2+ 4.07 Beta 5.

(Germanics get some more features in this CK2+ beta, a good time to try them out)

Same instructions as above.

 

[Knight010]

Great mod and I'm really enjoying the new flavor added to the Germanic religion. I have noticed though since I've converted and reformed that my fellow Germanic vassals refuse to attend any of the great blot parties that I throw and it's kind of hurting my feelings. They refuse to attend as if I were a different religion.

 

[BrokenSky]

Great mod and I'm really enjoying the new flavor added to the Germanic religion. I have noticed though since I've converted and reformed that my fellow Germanic vassals refuse to attend any of the great blot parties that I throw and it's kind of hurting my feelings. They refuse to attend as if I were a different religion.

Ah sorry, I realise the way it's worded was kinda ambiguous, what I meant was that CK2+ beta 5 adds more content to germanic pagans, so if you're using this mod as well, now would be a good time to try them. The great blot event is part of base CK2+, and I'm fairly confident I've seen someone post a bug report on it already (I've looked through the file and found where the bug seems to come from, I'm going to try to fix the bug anyway though - I'll post a new version soon once I've done that).

 

[BrokenSky]

Ok attached is an updated version. Now vassals of your religion or a heresy will attend (so if you're Germanic pre-reformation, only germanic vassals will attend, but if you're reformed germanic post reformation, germanic, reformed germanic and norse vassals will attend. If you're old germanic post germanic reformation, only old germanic vassals will attend). This fixes the bug where Germanic/reformed germanic vassals wouldn't attend the great blot regardless of your religion.

 

[Knight010]

Ah sorry, I realise the way it's worded was kinda ambiguous, what I meant was that CK2+ beta 5 adds more content to germanic pagans, so if you're using this mod as well, now would be a good time to try them. The great blot event is part of base CK2+, and I'm fairly confident I've seen someone post a bug report on it already (I've looked through the file and found where the bug seems to come from, I'm going to try to fix the bug anyway though - I'll post a new version soon once I've done that).

Ah, okay. I should have looked more into it within the CK2+ beta first, sorry. I definitely appreciate the update though, and I still think the features you've added are pretty great. Thanks for the mod, I'll definitely keep using it in the future!

 

[BrokenSky]

New update for a version compatible with CK2+ 4.07 Beta 6.

Same instructions as OP, please post bug reports here.

 

[BrokenSky]

Update compatible with CK2+ 4.07 "Europe" release.
Installation instructions in OP. Please remember to use the correct version of the mod for the version of CK2+ you're using; the mod changes on_actions and is incompatible with any other mod which does so.

 

[squealingpiggie]

I have to say that I love the idea of of Germanic and Nordic faiths being heresies of each other. But this makes me think that perhaps something similar should be done for the Romuva and Slavic faiths. I am currently taking a class on Russian Folklore to fulfill my general education requirements and just last Tuesday, I was exposed to Monk Nestor's Primary Chronicle, which describes the Christianization of the Rus. This text contains some of the earliest references to Slavic Paganism. There are several gods listen as being worshiped. Perun, Khors, Dash'bog, Stribog, Simar'gl, and Mokosh are all mentioned receiving scarifies. Looking at the names of these we find that these gods may very well come from different religions. Perun, the chief god of thunder, reminds us very much of Perkunas, the Romuva god of thunder. Khors, a sun god, may be of iranian deriving from the persian xurset. Dazh'bog, also a sun god, may be an extention of Khors as the original text has no conjuction between Khor and Dazh'bog, while they are separating each 'other' deities' names. Striborg is a deity of the wind, being found from Poland (the city named Strzyboga) to Kiev and Serbia, is most likely an ancient slavic god. Simar'gl, a dog with wings, a protector of pastures, plants and seeds, has an interesting name, not very slavic, and looks oddly similar to the the Iranian demon Simurgh. Funnily enough, while the former is a dog with wings, the latter is a bird with a dog's head. Lastly, Mokosh, the old female deity listed, is associated with fertility and weaving, as her name comes from matstyti, meaning to weave, and having a ritual mokrida, where yarn is thrown into a well, that survived in Ukraine and norther Russia until the nineteenth century. All of this makes me wonder if the Slavic Paganism was anything definite, or was an amalgamation of various different religions from the Scythian, to the Goths, to the Baltics, to the Rus as the area was repeatedly subjugated. We still don't know much about the old slavic faith, as the folklore that persist has little to do with the gods and more about the less benevolent and more malicious spirits like Rusulka, Leeshi, Baba Yaga, and Koschei. This is, more or less, just some food for thought.

On the topic of programming, you don't need to copy the entire file. The engine is designed to overwrite data. If you have a different named file with a modified event, as long as the event id is the same only the last loaded event will be kept. I did this locally on my computer, and it worked out fine. Additionally the events call for a picture I believe should be named 'GFX_evt_viking_throneroom_oldgods' not 'GFX_evt_throneroom_oldgods' (I found this out via the error.log file). I did have a rather unexpected hiccup a few days after reforming though. I had begun a game as Saxony in the Charlemagne start. After defending against Charlemagne, I used my reparations to found the Harii holy order. But later, after reforming the Germanic faith, the Harii flipped to Nordic, as only half my provinces had converted with me. Perhaps this is more an issue with CK2+, but it would be nice if the dominance flip could only be done reformed religions. Here's a screenshot of the dominance flip, less than a month after reforming (to be precise, the turn the of month after reforming).

 

[BrokenSky]

Regarding Slavic-Romuva; I'm not sure how similar they are personally, but having them have a similar effect might be interesting for gameplay, so I've put in events which similarly make slavic/baltic pagans into heretics of one another on reformation, similar to the germanic/norse system, though I've set it to default to being disabled in the game rules (if you scroll down to where the germanic submod rules are you can switch it to reformation which has the same effect as the germanic/norse reformation union). Since the slavic religion is so big compared to the baltic one, I've made the AI less likely to switch unless they're in the Baltic culture group, the East or West slavic groups, the finno-urgic group or the North or Elbe germanic groups. (At game start mostly this makes AI in the Balkans/south slavic group less likely to go Romuva if Baltic reforms).

But I think most polytheistic pagan religions had some elements of adopting deities they liked from other peoples; I heard somewhere that early attempts to convert the Norse to Christianity resulted in some form of syncretism (one thing I heard was that they liked the cross because if you held it one way it was the sign of Jesus, and the other way it looked similar to the hammer of Thor, so it was deemed good luck), and I'm under the impression this wasn't an unusual thing. (Personally I think that in EUIV the african pagan mechanics should be extended to the pagan religions from CK2 converter, and perhaps also shamanist/totemist/animist pagans, with the same cults/gods list, just different basic bonuses.).

Thanks for the flag on the graphic; I'm not sure how that happened (I thought I copy/pasted the graphic name from another event, but apparently not?).

I couldn't get the event to work correctly without fully replacing on_action_events.txt, which is a shame as being able to do so would really help compatibility with other submods. This mod should load after CK2+ since CK2+ is a dependency, right? I don't know why it's not working. Don't suppose you could upload a copy of the version you have where it works, could you?

Regarding the dominant religion flipping; the event you're seeing there (SoA.4200, from Sons of Abraham) only handles telling the player (and the AIs) about the change, not the change itself (including moving holy orders). I can't find the place which triggers it, but from the comments, it looks like it might be hardcoded, since FROM and FROMFROM are temporary characters? I don't think there's much I could do to stop it from firing for unreformed pagans. I might be able to tell it to forcibly reset holy orders to their original reformed religions but I'm not sure about it. It'd stop you getting all 4 on to the dominant religion after it formed. I'll think about putting some more detailed stuff in about it though. In the mean time they won't currently flip if you form them after you reform, even if you're a heresy rather than the main branch, and you'll get them back if you become the main branch again.

 

[squealingpiggie]

So after you said it didn't work, I quickly tested it again, thinking I may have not already tweaked it before I reformed (I am pretty sure I did both with the same save). While I didn't get it to proc after a couple years of 4 speed, I did get it to work if I consoled the event in; which means that the single event file is loaded. So maybe it works sometimes or not? I run on a linux machine and often get a CTD every few years for seemingly no reason (even vanilla, no dlc). For me not having it happen the second time makes me think more likely that the event got lost somewhere in memory.
Also, did you name the file something alphabetically higher than the name on_action? I don't know if it is important, but I see other submodders following the naming convention of having files with overwriting data more alphabetically advanced just to make sure that the event is loaded afterwards but I think that putting the dependencies will prevent the mod from loading until after all dependencies are loaded.

Perhaps it should be a decision done by the head to accept them in, maybe requiring 3 holy sites of the other religion or maybe there could be an event chain. Anything to at least allow the player to choose when they accept the other religion, so they don't loose any holy warriors if they don't want too when reforming.

So here is the file, just remove on_action_events.txt and place this in folder and it should work, at least if you trigger the diploresponse.670 event with the console after reforming.

 

[BrokenSky]

As it happens, yes the name I was using was nearly always earlier alphabetically; I tried it with a name which came later and it works. A little surprising given that the mod dependency should cause it to load after, but either way it seems sorted now. Thanks for the help.

So I've been working through it and I've put in some extra stuff in SoA.4200 (the [religion] faith triumphant), so that it triggers an event targeting the holy orders of norse, germanic, slavic and baltic paganism. The event causes them to flip to the reformed version of their default religion if they currently belong to an unreformed pagan religion (note that this does not include the old form of a reformed pagan religion; if you reform norse, then make old norse dominant, you'll keep the holy orders). You can also found the holy orders of both religions if you reform either germanic or norse (and since you're reformed they won't swap away as long as you're the dominant form of the religion).

There is one slight problem in that since there's a month tick between reforming and getting the SoA.4200 event, you can reform germanic (say), organise the jomsvikings, then have the flip to (unreformed) old norse. In that one specific case the problem still applies until you re-assert dominance of the reformed religion, but you'll still have the harii in that case (unless norse reforms and Reformed Norse ends up being the majority religion).

Technically it triggers that event once per ruler of the new religion (which might cause lag on the one day the event fires if there are lots of rulers with that religion, or be a problem if there are no rulers of the new religion - if it turns out to be a big deal I might change where it gets sent from - but I don't think it's likely to be a problem).

 

[squealingpiggie]

Now it's starting to look like a proper submod, instead of one or two additional events! There still seems to be so wrong event pictures. The 'GFX_evt_viking_tribal_shrine' should just be 'GFX_evt_tribal_shrine'. It's weird; I know; unlike Stellaris and, to a lesser extent, EU4, there is utterly no rhyme or reason to the names of anything in CK2. Also, the Saxon Kingdom at the Charlemagne start has two form harii decisions. Decisions can't be copied over to my knowledge. I believe every data member of each type has an ID value (even traits), which can depend on load order unless explicitly stated like in events. Decisions of the same name will just be another decision on top of what is already loaded. This isn't so bad, because you can just make a copy for those that aren't cover by the original potentials and allow. Likewise for minor titles, adding a volva for german pagans lets german pagans hand out to only other german pagans because only norse can hand out to norse; if i were to allow both german and norse to hand out the new title, norse character would be able to have two court volvas. I havn't testing the holy order switch event yet, because I was struck by a strange mood and descended onto my keyboard to fix some simple errors that I thought I could easily remedy with the use of custome_localisation.

Unfortunately for me, I was both right and wrong. I had gotten the nickname "the pious" on a germanic pagan, by raiding and sacrificing tons of frankish settlements and nobles. To me this didn't fit right at all, so I decided to make a quick event to change your nickname if you are germanic or norse pagan and get nick_the_pious, nick_the_holy, or nick_the_monk. The replacement is rather ingenious, if I do say so myself, even if the final solution is quite a hack job. The replacement nickname is called nick_german_norse_patron_child. If you can't guess what it does by that, let me explain, it takes your current patron and you gender and assembles a custom nickname like Thordottir and Odinsson. But wait! It also takes culture into account. if you north_germanic or russian you get scandinavian god names, otherwise it is the continental god names. I found out the hard way that nicknames have no scope. My final solution was an event called on the aquisition of a nickname to place some global flags in the immediate, remove the nick name, call a custome_localisation that used the flags, and cleanup in the after. It seems to work so far.

But then after I got this set up for both name variations I realized that norse pagans don't have patrons! So they would always be stuck with the generic 'Ae'. That's when I realized I couldn't just tuck my localisation overwrites alphabetically underneath the base mod's. I thought, since localisations don't overwrite, if I renamed the file to say '_00_something_or_other.txt', I wouldn't need to copy the entire localisation file. Turns out not to work, so I had to copy not just one, but two localisation files. Unfortunately, this was the best solution, otherwise I would have to not only have my modified localisation files with different names, I would have to copy every object that used it and change the names accordingly. I would rather just ask (beg) for the pagan localisations to be in a seperate file (if i didn't have grep, I don't know how I could find anything in those .csv files).

Anyway, it's kind of fun, but more of a proof of concept for flag impacted nickname generation. It also has the court volva title for german pagans, because they get the event, but can't appoint otherwise. I find that weird, so I changed it. I you want, feel free to use it in your mod, or as a springboard for other cool nicknames. Now I am getting inspired to make a random nickname generator that takes two random norse words and smooshes them together to make this like hairy legs, or eagle whale. It could have some potential for lulz.

 

[BrokenSky]

Now it's starting to look like a proper submod, instead of one or two additional events! There still seems to be so wrong event pictures. The 'GFX_evt_viking_tribal_shrine' should just be 'GFX_evt_tribal_shrine'. It's weird; I know; unlike Stellaris and, to a lesser extent, EU4, there is utterly no rhyme or reason to the names of anything in CK2. Also, the Saxon Kingdom at the Charlemagne start has two form harii decisions. Decisions can't be copied over to my knowledge. I believe every data member of each type has an ID value (even traits), which can depend on load order unless explicitly stated like in events. Decisions of the same name will just be another decision on top of what is already loaded. This isn't so bad, because you can just make a copy for those that aren't cover by the original potentials and allow. Likewise for minor titles, adding a volva for german pagans lets german pagans hand out to only other german pagans because only norse can hand out to norse; if i were to allow both german and norse to hand out the new title, norse character would be able to have two court volvas. I havn't testing the holy order switch event yet, because I was struck by a strange mood and descended onto my keyboard to fix some simple errors that I thought I could easily remedy with the use of custome_localisation.

Unfortunately for me, I was both right and wrong. I had gotten the nickname "the pious" on a germanic pagan, by raiding and sacrificing tons of frankish settlements and nobles. To me this didn't fit right at all, so I decided to make a quick event to change your nickname if you are germanic or norse pagan and get nick_the_pious, nick_the_holy, or nick_the_monk. The replacement is rather ingenious, if I do say so myself, even if the final solution is quite a hack job. The replacement nickname is called nick_german_norse_patron_child. If you can't guess what it does by that, let me explain, it takes your current patron and you gender and assembles a custom nickname like Thordottir and Odinsson. But wait! It also takes culture into account. if you north_germanic or russian you get scandinavian god names, otherwise it is the continental god names. I found out the hard way that nicknames have no scope. My final solution was an event called on the aquisition of a nickname to place some global flags in the immediate, remove the nick name, call a custome_localisation that used the flags, and cleanup in the after. It seems to work so far.

But then after I got this set up for both name variations I realized that norse pagans don't have patrons! So they would always be stuck with the generic 'Ae'. That's when I realized I couldn't just tuck my localisation overwrites alphabetically underneath the base mod's. I thought, since localisations don't overwrite, if I renamed the file to say '_00_something_or_other.txt', I wouldn't need to copy the entire localisation file. Turns out not to work, so I had to copy not just one, but two localisation files. Unfortunately, this was the best solution, otherwise I would have to not only have my modified localisation files with different names, I would have to copy every object that used it and change the names accordingly. I would rather just ask (beg) for the pagan localisations to be in a seperate file (if i didn't have grep, I don't know how I could find anything in those .csv files).

Anyway, it's kind of fun, but more of a proof of concept for flag impacted nickname generation. It also has the court volva title for german pagans, because they get the event, but can't appoint otherwise. I find that weird, so I changed it. I you want, feel free to use it in your mod, or as a springboard for other cool nicknames. Now I am getting inspired to make a random nickname generator that takes two random norse words and smooshes them together to make this like hairy legs, or eagle whale. It could have some potential for lulz.

Well I fixed the event image and the decision (luckily with all the decisions I'd changed I'd only added additional potential conditions, so I've just changed it so that the new decisions only turn up if you don't have the old decision).
EDIT: part of the fix had a typo causing some weird errors. I've removed the download, but since I'm currently testing some other stuff haven't uploaded the fixed version yet.

The nickname system you've made looks pretty cool, though wouldn't it have been easier to just give norse pagans patrons, similar to germanics?

Also the procedural nickname generator sounds interesting. I'd love to see what you end up with if it works.

 

[squealingpiggie]

I at first thought just adding norse versions would be simplest, but their are over a dozen events that check and call localisations based on patron. I don't know about size difference, but it was much easier for me to just copy the localisaion files and edit what i needed too. But the main goal was to see if I could have the tooltip for the patron modifier be dependent on religion. If you are germanic and looking at a norse character it will give you the germanic name; likewise, a norse character looking at a germanic patron modifier will see the norse name. This was done because they are essentially the same god.

I really want to make that norse nickname generator, but I have finals to prepare for. Also I don't know if localisation_key can take strings (quoted text), because if they do it would reduce the mod size by upto half as I wouldn't have to have to store unique keys with each word (and if I want capitalization for the first word it would take twice the space) but it wont be until Tuesday at the soonest that I start on it.

 

[BrokenSky]

I at first thought just adding norse versions would be simplest, but their are over a dozen events that check and call localisations based on patron. I don't know about size difference, but it was much easier for me to just copy the localisaion files and edit what i needed too. But the main goal was to see if I could have the tooltip for the patron modifier be dependent on religion. If you are germanic and looking at a norse character it will give you the germanic name; likewise, a norse character looking at a germanic patron modifier will see the norse name. This was done because they are essentially the same god.

I really want to make that norse nickname generator, but I have finals to prepare for. Also I don't know if localisation_key can take strings (quoted text), because if they do it would reduce the mod size by upto half as I wouldn't have to have to store unique keys with each word (and if I want capitalization for the first word it would take twice the space) but it wont be until Tuesday at the soonest that I start on it.

Well given the stuff you've already done, where instead of, say, Odin, a piece of text will have [GetOdinCulturalName], you can just use the same tags and events for norse as for german and they'll get the norse, rather than german, names.
[Edit: and as you say, a norse character might become a follower of Odin, and would see the modifier as "follower of Odin", while a germanic would see them as "follower of Wotan". Dunno if having germanic be the default (so a french character would say and see Wotan rather than Odin) is a problem though.]


It's funny, in the original thread which inspired this submod to begin with one of the suggestions was to recombine the religions but to have different names based on culture, which the devs (CK2+ devs) said they couldn't do. It's really cool how you've gotten around the limitation.

 

[BrokenSky]

Ok, here's the reupdated version. The decisions are fixed, and Norse pagans can now take the decision to get a patron deity (with the same options as Germanic pagans). I also added in your nickname renaming event.

I've made a couple of changes to the god name localisation, mostly with players playing characters who are neither germanic nor norse in mind; the default names (which they will see) are Norse unless germanic has reformed and norse hasn't. (I could probably have made it check which was dominant if they'd both reformed, but that was starting to look like a kind of expensive calculation for a localisation thing). My thinking is that Norse pagans are more common (being present in a later start and not having Charlie gunning for them early on), and are more likely to be more familiar to people in most of these areas (what with viking raids etc.) so it'd make more sense to have some random christian french duke see "Odin" rather than "Wotan" in most places the name would come up. I also thought it made a little more sense to have which is seen based on religion rather than culture, given the dependency on reformation.

Also when this thread gets to 2 pages long, I'm probably going to replace the mod in the first post with the most updated version. (And update the first post for future versions).