Carantanian culture

[Dragatus]

As a Slovenian I appreciate the inclusion of Carantanian (slovene) culture in v4.07, but unfortunately the implementation of it is completely wrong. Carantania (Wikipedia link) was a principality that emerged in the 7th century and then came under Bavarian rule in the 740s before becoming part of the Carolingan empire until it was finally dissolved in 828. Carantanian culture shouldn't be a melting pot culture that emerges after 1250. It should exist on the map from the start, primarily as a province culture.

When Paradox decided against including a Slovene culture they used Croatian as a replacement. So the minimum required to properly implement the culture would be to change two characters and several provinces that are currently Croatian.

The two characters (and their IDs) are Jesen Vit (190567) and Grgur Lanik (190568). Both are located in old_frankish.txt rather than croatian.txt where one might expect them. Grgur could perhaps also be renamed to Gregor, since that's the form of that name that is used in Slovene.

The provinces (and their IDs) are Karnten (456), Krain (457), Istria (458), Sopron (450), and Vas (454). The latter three could perhaps be disputed to a degree, but I think slovene is still more accurate than croatian and Croatians still have plenty of other provinces and a kingdom.

Additionally Steiermark (455) and Untersteiermark (1652) ought to start out as slovene rather than german. Historical Carantania proper would be best approximated with the combination of Karnten and Steiermark and given how it lost it's independence in 740s the areas would still be slovene in 796 when the game starts. Steiermark did eventually become German, so I'm fine with it switching culture to Bavarian and Austrian in later starts. The area of the Untersteiermark province remains Slovene to this day though, so for that reason I think it shouldn't change culture in the history files and should remain slovene throughout.

Further, I would recommend naming the culture Slovene rather than Carantanian in the localization. That is because as I mentioned Carntania roughly covered the area of only two provinces (Karnten and Steiermark) and to the south old Slovenes lived in a second principality, Carniola (Wikipedia link). It seems unfair as well as inaccurate to name the culture of both after only one of them, but Slovene would fit nicely for the two of them. It also works better for Sopron and Vas if you decide to change them as well.

Finally, if you want to go the extra mile, Jesen Vit and Grgur Lanik are as far as I can tell both fictional characters, but there was a historical Carantanian prince Hotimir of Borut's dynasty who ruled from 752 until 769. It's not known when he was born, but it is known that he was sent to the Bavarians as a hostage in 745. Hotimir should own both Karnten and Steirmark and should have Elective Monarchy succession. Known rulers before him are his uncle Borut (???-749) and Borut's son Gorazd (749-752).

 

[vukica]

Pozdrav

The reason why the culture doesn't exist on the map is that cultures with not enough provinces tend to get wiped out fairly quicly.
Now, I am kinda thinking about how to avoid that in a way that's acceptable both from gameplay and performance point of view. But I haven't yet had that epiphany.

If you want to start a slovenian game in a ruler designer, there's a neat trait called "minority culture". That will turn your capital and up to 3 other provinces to your culture, effectively giving you, the player, a way to have slovenian culture on the map from the start.

As for the name, it's not exactly final. We'll see.

Also, notice that Steirmark was split and is now two provinces.

 

[Dragatus]

You mean Steiermark and Untersteiermark, yes? I noticed that and mention both in my post.

Fair point about culture extinction. I suppose the main issue is that there are no independent Carantanian rulers, so the culture is doomed for extinction either way.

I've been thinking about it some, particularly in the context of whether Istria, Sopron, and Vas ought to be Carantanian or Croatian. And looking at various online sources I've reached the conclusion that it's actually incorrect to speak of Croats and Slovenes as two separate people during the early middle ages. The impression that I got is that the most historically accurate way to portray that would be to have a common "old South Slavic" culture that splits into Croatian and Slovene similarly to how Norse splits into Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian. It would turn into Croatian in Croatia ruled by an independent "old South Slavic" or Croatian ruler and turn into Slovene in the Slovenia region if ruled by a Slovene or foreign ruler.

And then I realized that's actually relatively close to the current implementation. The difference is that you have Croatian filling the role of "old South Slavic" instead of emerging from it. That still bugs me, but I can deal with it. It's what PDX has chosen to roll with too, so you have you precedent. And perhaps more importantly, I know how to mod. I just need to find a good name for the "old south Slavic" culture.

But do use the name "Slovene" instead of "Carantanian" for the ingame display. It's somewhat anachronistic, but still much more accurate for a 13th century emergent culture. By the time the melting pot culture emerges Carantania has been gone for half a millennium. And do make Steiermark and Untersteiermark both Croatian from the start if you'll continue using Croatian for the common culture. And Untersteiermark should not change culture to Bavarian and Austrian in it's history file.

 

[vukica]

incorrect to speak of Croats and Slovenes as two separate people during the early middle ages.

Yes, I'm pretty certain it's incorret to speak of any significant slavic cultural divisions before the millenium. It's quite opposite to what we're tought in school in Croatia. But then again, it's not really the greatest education system....

The difference is that you have Croatian filling the role of "old South Slavic" instead of emerging from it.

Yes, and... no. You'll notice Slovenian can emerge even from Bohemian. As previously stated, the whole south/west slavic differentiation is pretty vague up until mid 11th century.
Also the Croatian/Serbian thing is literally localisation before the Schism (i.e. these are croatian lands, so the slavs living here are croatian). One theory is that the names are based on avar words for "living on the border" and "living farther away". Who knows...

do make Steiermark and Untersteiermark both Croatian

I won't be changing Steiermark culture. Maybe in CM bookmark, but beyond that it seems like a strech.
However, I do wonder how the province should be called if Slovenian? Zgornja Štajerska? The Untersteirmark is simply called "Štajerska". It's in reverse in german, to kinda make a point.
Untersteiermark should be fixed...

The reason why I chose Carantanian was because I'm planning to add Slovak culture and people who are not "local" won't have a clue about the difference. I may just be underestimating the average CK2 player.
But if I do change my mind... Slovene or Slovenian?

 

[Dragatus]

Yes, I'm pretty certain it's incorret to speak of any significant slavic cultural divisions before the millenium. It's quite opposite to what we're tought in school in Croatia. But then again, it's not really the greatest education system....

Over here we just learn about Samo's union and Carantania and then move on without mentioning anything about our southern brothers until we start covering the 19th century. I suppose we at least don't learn any falsehoods.

I won't be changing Steiermark culture. Maybe in CM bookmark, but beyond that it seems like a strech.

I do think Steiermark in the CM bookmark should be Croatian. At that time Carantania still existed as a client state of Bavaria and covered roughly the area of the provinces Karnten and most (though not all) of Steiermark. I can accept it being Alemmanic in 867.

However, I do wonder how the province should be called if Slovenian? Zgornja Štajerska? The Untersteirmark is simply called "Štajerska". It's in reverse in german, to kinda make a point.

Yes, Zgornja Štajerska for Steiermark and Štajerska for Untersteiermark. And it does make a point.

The reason why I chose Carantanian was because I'm planning to add Slovak culture and people who are not "local" won't have a clue about the difference. I may just be underestimating the average CK2 player.

Come on, show some faith in the players! Though if you insist to make it more distinct from Slovak, at least call it Carniolan instead of Carantanian. We only really started calling ourselves Slovenci in the 19th century after the spring of nations, though Trubar used the word already in the 16th century. But Slovene writers from the 18th and early 19th century would commonly used the words Kranjci or the adjective kranjski.

But if I do change my mind... Slovene or Slovenian?

Slovene. We're Slovenci, not Slovenijanci. The way I see it the adjective Slovene refers to the people/nation while the adjective Slovenian refers to the country Slovenia.