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Festung Gross Paris means the timeline is August, I think extending it to first pushes into Germany could be good. (market garden or Aachen?)

@FLG (the person above me)

the 4th infantry wouldn't be any different from the 2nd currently ingame. the big red one in Aachen and past that would be a little different because it would have very high vet and was reinforced by halftracks (I think the 307th armored infantry but my memory is at an all time low)

but, it is irrelevant because that is not Normandy. I think any future us divisions would not be very unique because they were very uniform in real life.
 
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What about Operation: Dragoon, the lesser known landing in Southern France?

It would fit timeline just fine as it could be taken as continuation on liberation of France, existing equipment could be used and terrain is not that different (expect for vineyards of course!).

Edit: Actually, it should be done so we could get First Special Service Brigade AKA "The Devils Brigade". The Father of all modern US and Canadian Special Forces.

And so that I can write Das dicke Ende kommt noch! every time I play against Germans.
 
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EUG_MadMat said:
That would mean creating brand new German or Dutch environment assets & maps accordingly.
It is just the most time-consuming part of game production ... :(
Click to expand...

I'm curious about this. What makes a map for IrisZoom time consuming? Would you guys ever do a blog post or something about how you make maps? Like how much time goes into research, do you use GIS date or eyeball it, does placing things on the map take up more time than asset creation, etc.

I've made maps in other games that weren't nearly as detailed as SD/WG/RUSE so I appreciate that it can take a long time; I'm just curious what your process is.
 
Sotahullu said:
Edit: Actually, it should be done so we could get First Special Service Brigade AKA "The Devils Brigade". The Father of all modern US and Canadian Special Forces.
Click to expand...
They were part of the larger Allied Airborne Task Force, which would be an airborne division made up of American paratroopers, British paratroopers, the US-Canadian Devil's Brigade and even some Nisei AT gunners. And at some point, even Free French paratroopers.
Provence would also provide
  • French colonial troops
  • 1st Free French Division (the ones from Bir Hakeim & El Alamein, with the Légionnaires).
  • Task Force Butler would provide a reduced US armored division which linked up with FFI, hence some kind of "reversed DBSAS".
  • Groupement Sudre would be an even more reduced French armored division (about 1/3 of the 1e DB, without any armored infantry transports) with accompanying Morrocan Goumiers (colonial mountain infantry) & Algerian Tirailleurs (same as regular French infantry, but equipped with old American & French equipment).
On the German side, there were:
  • 11. Panzerdivision (a quite standard Panzerdivision, although lacking 88mm and with at least a Beute m8 Greyhound)
  • Aktion Bettina: the troops gathered for the destruction of the "Little Republic" of Vercors inland while the Allied landed in Provence. There, maquis had risen and established a stronghold, awaiting for Allied airborne reinforcements or at least supply drops. They received nothing from the Allies, or even Free France in Algiers, but the "Warsaw treatment". Meaning they were mostly left to die. The British claimed they couldn't divert the necessary planes from ongoing operations, and Algiers was too afraid of dropping arms to potential communists who could have used them after the Liberation to overthrow the government. The German troops were formed around the 157. Reserve-Division, a Gebirgsjäger training unit (equipped mostly with Italian automatic weapons), with several smaller security units (Osttruppen, Sicherungs, ...), a few Gardes Mobiles (Vichy Gendarmerie) and even some Franc-Gardes from the hated collaborationist Milice. There was also one company from the highly special and secretive Kampfgeschwader 200, the airborne arm of the Abwehr, with special forces Fallschirmjäger armed with MP-44!
  • Finally, something could surely be done with the troops from Festungs Toulon, which fought quite fiercely. Some kind of Festungs Paris, but more leaning toward the Kriegsmarine, with some Brandenburger special forces & even Italian San Marco.
 
EUG_MadMat said:
They were part of the larger Allied Airborne Task Force, which would be an airborne division made up of American paratroopers, British paratroopers, the US-Canadian Devil's Brigade and even some Nisei AT gunners. And at some point, even Free French paratroopers.
Provence would also provide
  • French colonial troops
  • 1st Free French Division (the ones from Bir Hakeim & El Alamein, with the Légionnaires).
  • Task Force Butler would provide a reduced US armored division which linked up with FFI, hence some kind of "reversed DBSAS".
  • Groupement Sudre would be an even more reduced French armored division (about 1/3 of the 1e DB, without any armored infantry transports) with accompanying Morrocan Goumiers (colonial mountain infantry) & Algerian Tirailleurs (same as regular French infantry, but equipped with old American & French equipment).
On the German side, there were:
  • 11. Panzerdivision (a quite standard Panzerdivision, although lacking 88mm and with at least a Beute m8 Greyhound)
  • Aktion Bettina: the troops gathered for the destruction of the "Little Republic" of Vercors inland while the Allied landed in Provence. There, maquis had risen and established a stronghold, awaiting for Allied airborne reinforcements or at least supply drops. They received nothing from the Allies, or even Free France in Algiers, but the "Warsaw treatment". Meaning they were mostly left to die. The British claimed they couldn't divert the necessary planes from ongoing operations, and Algiers was too afraid of dropping arms to potential communists who could have used them after the Liberation to overthrow the government. The German troops were formed around the 157. Reserve-Division, a Gebirgsjäger training unit (equipped mostly with Italian automatic weapons), with several smaller security units (Osttruppen, Sicherungs, ...), a few Gardes Mobiles (Vichy Gendarmerie) and even some Franc-Gardes from the hated collaborationist Milice. There was also one company from the highly special and secretive Kampfgeschwader 200, the airborne arm of the Abwehr, with special forces Fallschirmjäger armed with MP-44!
  • Finally, something could surely be done with the troops from Festungs Toulon, which fought quite fiercely. Some kind of Festungs Paris, but more leaning toward the Kriegsmarine, with some Brandenburger special forces & even Italian San Marco.
Click to expand...



Ahh i always start to dream when you post stuff like this XD Really hope for such expansions :)
Looking forward to get a yellow and pink S symbol. Hope the Company and the STrikers will figure out a way to go.
 
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Well I did take a look at 11th Panzer Division (which was interesting enough known as "Ghost Division") but I did not find that much concerning Dragoon. But here is what I found out:

- It is a Stalingrad Division. It was officially lost in January 1943 and quickly rebuild using any veterans and replacement units available. Later to take part in Kursk.
- Before 11th was returned to Southern France from Eastern Front it had absorbed entier grenadier regiment and 1 battalion from normal infantry divisions. And in route it had absorbed some parts of the 273rd Reserve Panzer Division.
- Very well armed, having roughly 90% of its gear and men and having actually more Panthers then other tanks available, having full battalion of those. The other Panzer battalion had mix of Panzer IIIs, Panzer IVs and StuGs.
- During the campaing 2 Flak Regiments were apparently attached to the divisions command as well as any available air support.

As sidenote here that there is some mention of them having full battalion of Hetzer tank destoyers but there is no source on when they had them.



And seriously, there is not that much info on these guys!
 
11. Panzer wasn't directly involved in Anvil-Dragoon. Actually, no Panzer division was, and I might even dare say, no panzer at all!

It was in Toulouse when put on alert, then moved by train toward the Rhône Valley (see page 238-239 here). It provided a Panzergrenadier battalion to Aktion Bettina, the crushing of the Vercors maquis. Thereafter, it was forced to retreat through the Rhône Valley with Allied forces on its heels and partisans harassing the retreating columns.

Early in September, some elements were engaged near Montrevel by the US 117th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron. That's where it lost (and I discovered about) its Beute M8.
http://117th-cav.org/The SPUR/MG306-LYON_A.pdf
 
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Yung Rommel said:
the 4th infantry wouldn't be any different from the 2nd currently ingame.
Click to expand...

I do not suggest the 4th ID. In fact, I am not sure if there is any good suggestion for another Allied "division"
(in the terms of SD) in northern France 1944.
My suggestion, if any, would be the siege force of a German Atlantikfestung: in case of St-Nazaire the FFI mixed with the US 94th ID; and in case of Dunkirk the 1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade and attached formations (British tanks, Canadian infantry, FFI infantry).


EUG_MadMat said:
They were part of the larger Allied Airborne Task Force, which would be an airborne division made up of American paratroopers, British paratroopers, the US-Canadian Devil's Brigade and even some Nisei AT gunners. And at some point, even Free French paratroopers.
Provence would also provide
  • French colonial troops
  • 1st Free French Division (the ones from Bir Hakeim & El Alamein, with the Légionnaires).
  • Task Force Butler would provide a reduced US armored division which linked up with FFI, hence some kind of "reversed DBSAS".
  • Groupement Sudre would be an even more reduced French armored division (about 1/3 of the 1e DB, without any armored infantry transports) with accompanying Morrocan Goumiers (colonial mountain infantry) & Algerian Tirailleurs (same as regular French infantry, but equipped with old American & French equipment).
On the German side, there were:
  • 11. Panzerdivision (a quite standard Panzerdivision, although lacking 88mm and with at least a Beute m8 Greyhound)
  • Aktion Bettina: the troops gathered for the destruction of the "Little Republic" of Vercors inland while the Allied landed in Provence. There, maquis had risen and established a stronghold, awaiting for Allied airborne reinforcements or at least supply drops. They received nothing from the Allies, or even Free France in Algiers, but the "Warsaw treatment". Meaning they were mostly left to die. The British claimed they couldn't divert the necessary planes from ongoing operations, and Algiers was too afraid of dropping arms to potential communists who could have used them after the Liberation to overthrow the government. The German troops were formed around the 157. Reserve-Division, a Gebirgsjäger training unit (equipped mostly with Italian automatic weapons), with several smaller security units (Osttruppen, Sicherungs, ...), a few Gardes Mobiles (Vichy Gendarmerie) and even some Franc-Gardes from the hated collaborationist Milice. There was also one company from the highly special and secretive Kampfgeschwader 200, the airborne arm of the Abwehr, with special forces Fallschirmjäger armed with MP-44!
  • Finally, something could surely be done with the troops from Festungs Toulon, which fought quite fiercely. Some kind of Festungs Paris, but more leaning toward the Kriegsmarine, with some Brandenburger special forces & even Italian San Marco.
Click to expand...

Southern France is interesting because it had a stronger focus on infantry and partisan warfare. "Bettina" is only the tip of the iceberg, so to say. The mix of troops on both sides is a strong argument, too. In addition to the units mentioned above, for example there were (Banden-)Jagdkommandos (hand-picked squads hunting partisans; often very brutal and nasty) and SS-Polizei (policemen used in antipartisan operations; despite the "honourary" name not part of the SS but the Ordnungspolizei).
The Germans in general had many Italian weapons, since they had disarmed the Italian occupation forces. It is mostly flavour, but a notable variation nonetheless.

I would not call the Toulon battle overly fierce though. I mean the defence was stiff enough considering the lack of resources, but really only lasted until the harbour was demolished and then units surrendered quickly - which, of course, makes sense. It is sometimes argued that Admiral Ruhfus did just enough not to appear as a traitor (thus saving not only his face and military honour but also his family in Germany), but he seemed unwilling to waste lives.
 
I recall reading memoirs from colonial officers who fought in Toulon, and from their perspective, the German resistance was determined. Especially from an NCO school (cadets?) battalion which didn't hesitate to call for artillery on its own position before counter-attacking even before the last rounds had exploded.

Regarding Italian armament, I mentioned that the 157. Reserve-Division had a lot of them.
This website (in French!) says half the squad MG were Italian ones, (meaning the infamous Breda 30) but also refers to Italian mortars and Polish machine-gun.

Anvil-Dragoon would provide with many new interesting (mostly infantry) Allied divisions, but only a few German ones.
Market Garden would provide with several "well flavored" division-size German Kampfgruppen (von Tettau, Walther, ...), but very few choices of Allied ones.

Sotahullu said:
It would fit timeline just fine as it could be taken as continuation on liberation of France, existing equipment could be used and terrain is not that different (expect for vineyards of course!).
Click to expand...
Normandy and Provence looks nothing alike. At all.
Architecture, vegetation, cultivated grounds, ... are clearly not the same, being of Mediterranean style.

Provence would fit better with an Italian environment if we had done that theater, than with Normandy.
 
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EUG_MadMat said:
I recall reading memoirs from colonial officers who fought in Toulon, and from their perspective, the German resistance was determined. Especially from an NCO school (cadets?) battalion which didn't hesitate to call for artillery on its own position before counter-attacking even before the last rounds had exploded.
Click to expand...
The troops in Toulon were so diverse that I would expect that some were more willing to fight than others – especially when confronted with Colonial troops.



Anyway regarding Normandy I found some interesting notes in the war diary of the 17. Luftwaffen-Felddivision, for example:

U5rappN.jpg


This is an order from June 1944. The division is ordered to raise Stoßzüge (aka Stoßtrupps):

“Especially effective is the formation and training of a Stosszug in each company (equipped with, for example, 4 MG and automatic rifles, SMGs, and AT as far as available). Used for immediate counterattacks in case of enemy breakthroughs, as reserve for attacks, in close combat situations, and in cooperation with assault guns and tanks. [...] The squad has to be specialized for those missions and train often.”

I doubt they had actually time for intensive training, but it might be a nice unit nonetheless: a Lw-Stoßtrupp similar to the SS-Stoßtrupp but with different weapons and (still) disheartened. As far as the automatic rifles are concerned... it is hard to tell in detail who got the G43, and I would not exclude the possibility that the 17th had some, but I do not know for sure.
Btw., the 17th also had snipers and Osttruppen. And I read about individual Spaniards in an artillery regiment but could not verify it.
 
I knew about the Osttruppen, but not the Stosszuge. Thanks for the translation, that's interesting.

Regarding snipers, everybody had some in the form of sharpshooters (best shot in a unit being given a scope) but very few had REAL independent snipers.
Even in the German army, before encountering the Soviet snipers and mimicking them, I think only the Gebirgsjäger really had a pre-war sniping tradition.
 
My knowledge on snipers is relatively thread bare however I believe the Germans started schools for snipers back in WWI. To my knowledge there was a cadre that continued to train even in the interim period.

The distinction between snipers and sharp shooters is important and I know very little about how units specifically employed these.

I do know that there were a considerable number of German snipers/sharp shooters used in the bocage to harry or otherwise frustrate allied advances.

Additionally the allies (Russia aside) in general were slow to recognize the importance of sniper schools and effectively employ snipers.

von Luck
 
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EUG_MadMat said:
I knew about the Osttruppen, but not the Stosszuge. Thanks for the translation, that's interesting.

Regarding snipers, everybody had some in the form of sharpshooters (best shot in a unit being given a scope) but very few had REAL independent snipers.
Click to expand...
Glad to be of assistance!

Regarding the snipers, in case of the 17th Luftwaffe, it is merely divisional training and I would not expect too much. Some of the better shooters probably got a scoped rifle and a crash course - which might be dangerous enough, especially in the bocage, but I don't think they were specially trained by a school in Germany. Training in the 17th was apparently a bit better than in the 16th, just not by that margin.

The only truly capable Luftwaffen-Felddivisionen, beside the original Division Meindl, was perhaps the 20th in Italy. It was mobile and officially designated 20. Luftwaffen-Sturm-Division (although in practice, the term was never used). And it had some intresting stuff like Marder III, which they took over from the 19th, or the Gebirgskanone 259(i). It is just another case of an interesting formation active in Italy; there are so many of them...
 
Well 19th and 20th are bit different from other Luftwaffe divisions as these were designated as "mobile" divisions after some period in occupation role in Denmark and Holland. In practice all Jäger regiments were made bicycle troops, number of cavalry officers were integrated and artillery regiment was fully motorised besides being reinforced by Polish, Czezh and Soviet guns. Mainly because of this they got designated as "Sturm Division".


But regarding the 17th it would be more practical to increase options for the current 16th Field Division rather then include division that is more or less similar. Or mod it.
 
I would not really advocate the 17th, although I would not mind it either. I just found the Lw.-Stoßtrupp and wanted to share the info.
My favourite for a new devision is definitely another Festung, like Cherbourg or St-Nazaire. I recently got the new Osprey volume on WWII Vichy French Security Troops, and it says Milice units were deployed in Brittany, using British weapons. Perhaps they could be given to the Festung Cherbourg? (What an infantry line-up!). MadMat probably knows more about them.
 
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