• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Cato Zilks

Corporal
1 Badges
Mar 9, 2018
31
0
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
Shower thought:
Why do Clans have male and female mechwarriors? If they are genemodded test-tube creatures, wouldn't they have figured out "a" sex is best for this role and "b" for that?
 
Cause the sex chromosomes control a lot more than just gender. And most likely the genes they want to tweak are not even on them so there is no reason to change them and make it non-viable. Go look up the Genecast if you want creepy-pasta genemodding. They want to increase human capability, not make non-humans. Which means subtle gene tweaks not wholesale makeovers. The Clans view themselves as trying to reach the pinnacle of humanity. Which means there are somethings you can't change.
 
Everything I've read about the clans says they use a eugenics program, not direct modification of genes. The Clans breed warriors artificially, but it sounds to me like they still need material from male and female warriors of previous generations to do that.

You're also assuming that a same sex force of MechWarriors is inherently superior to a mixed sex force.
 
Cause the sex chromosomes control a lot more than just gender.
Sure like body size, brain chemistry, etc. That is exactly why I thought they might have picked one sex as preferable for their mechwarrior caste.

And most likely the genes they want to tweak are not even on them so there is no reason to change them and make it non-viable. Go look up the Genecast if you want creepy-pasta genemodding. They want to increase human capability, not make non-humans. Which means subtle gene tweaks not wholesale makeovers. The Clans view themselves as trying to reach the pinnacle of humanity. Which means there are somethings you can't change.
This is not about undoing Humanity. The clanners dont use sexual reproduction, so they dont need warriors of both sexes inorder to pass on genetic traits to their descendants. So from a pre-planned point of view, why wouldn't they do the maths and have all of their mechwarriors be of one particular sex. For examlple, if they made all mechwarriors female the average size of the mechwarriors would be smaller and they could save cockpit space.
 
Everything I've read about the clans says they use a eugenics program, not direct modification of genes. The Clans breed warriors artificially, but it sounds to me like they still need material from male and female warriors of previous generations to do that.

You're also assuming that a same sex force of MechWarriors is inherently superior to a mixed sex force.
To the first bit, If it is not genemodding, but natural process outside the womb, then I get why they would have both sexes.

To the second, (again presuming actuall genemodding) I am not commenting on the virtue or vice mixed sex regiments in a world of natural selection. Maybe the clanners found that certain personality traits or brain chemistries that make an ideal team are found most often in opposing sexes. I dunno.

I just figured that with several hundred years of intentional gene selection they would have found a best "meatbag type" for each role that their society needs.
 
Sure like body size, brain chemistry, etc. That is exactly why I thought they might have picked one sex as preferable for their mechwarrior caste.


This is not about undoing Humanity. The clanners dont use sexual reproduction, so they dont need warriors of both sexes inorder to pass on genetic traits to their descendants. So from a pre-planned point of view, why wouldn't they do the maths and have all of their mechwarriors be of one particular sex. For examlple, if they made all mechwarriors female the average size of the mechwarriors would be smaller and they could save cockpit space.

No I mean little things like expression and expressions of expressions. And yes they do use sexual reproduction but just in iron wombs. None of this 'pre-planned'. They are not assembly line warriors. They want variation and randomness. Just to a point.

To the first bit, If it is not genemodding, but natural process outside the womb, then I get why they would have both sexes.

To the second, (again presuming actuall genemodding) I am not commenting on the virtue or vice mixed sex regiments in a world of natural selection. Maybe the clanners found that certain personality traits or brain chemistries that make an ideal team are found most often in opposing sexes. I dunno.

I just figured that with several hundred years of intentional gene selection they would have found a best "meatbag type" for each role that their society needs.
The whole point of the Clan Warrior caste is you are never perfect. Only the Warrior caste does genemodding. And it is only 0.01% of the Clans. They don't pick apart everything. This is a slight flaw from the 80's source of Battletech. And in fact a totally different view of genemodding. Not to create the perfect person right there but to nudge it in the right direction. All Bloodlines have both male and female people in them. And they regularly cross the bloodlines to try to improve them. It is more enhanced natural selection. In Battletech if you do too much genemodding you get horrors.
 
Everything I've read about the clans says they use a eugenics program, not direct modification of genes. The Clans breed warriors artificially, but it sounds to me like they still need material from male and female warriors of previous generations to do that.

You're also assuming that a same sex force of MechWarriors is inherently superior to a mixed sex force.

Although from every description of Elementals I've ever seen, it appears the Clans were able to breed a stable, non-life-threatening version of gigantism into the Elemental bloodlines, resulting in men and women who were seven to eight feet tall. Couple this with the strange appearance of the Aerospace phenotype (oddly large eyes and head), and it appears the Clans may have been doing more than just mere eugenics.
 
It doesn't take genetic engineering to do stuff like that. Take a look at all those odd-looking dog breeds and realize we did that with the wolf as a starting point.

The Clans are doing literally the same thing with people. Clan trials are basically dog shows where prized specimens are used to create the next generation.
 
Last edited:
There's also the fact that not all trueborns succeed in becoming warriors, and of those who get reassigned, some do elect to have offspring. There's a novel called Freebirth that has an early chapter that explains why warriors are bred as both genders.
 
Both genders are kept in the warrior castes to keep human reproduction intact. The clans are not trying to build a warrior caste that can only repopulate itself artificially. A lot of human psychology is control by hormones that effect human reproduction. Eliminating one effects the other.

I'll just quote Sarna which gets its info from the official source books:

"The use of in vitro fertilization was also partially responsible for the casualness of love and relationships within Clan society, especially as the act of sex became divorced from reproduction. Whereas in the Inner Sphere such acts are considered a sign of intimacy in a relationship, among Clan warriors it is merely a normal part of friendship. The idea of sexual fidelity is completely lost on them as coupling with friends, usually members of the same sibko, is completely natural. They also see the act of courtship as completely unnecessary and, if they bother to perform any type of seduction, are as likely to simply walk up to a complete stranger and ask if they are interested in coupling.[24][25] As per the eugenics program, civilians are matched together based on their genetic compatibility, though the only purpose of these sanctioned matches is for the production of children; as a result promiscuity is also prevalent among the castes. A blind eye is turned to these "unofficial" couplings so long as birth control is used."

In short, the clans don't care about promiscuity and may even see it as a way to strengthen unity. Among the other castes, as long as childern are produced as assigned, no one cares about who else you sleep with or "love". Indecently, its still not unheard of for even Clan women of the warrior caste to have children. They can be reprimanded for doing so but the clans will let the child live and even allow them to become warriors. A cannon example of this would be Diana Pryde (who even managed to earn a bloodname because she was the child of two warrior castes members).

"The eugenics program proper began in 2819, though it wouldn't be until 2858 that the three distinctive phenotypes associated with modern-day trueborns first emerged.[44] Surprisingly, scientists associated with the program take a hands-off approach to their work, preferring for the most part to let nature take its course. Genetic modification to alter physical or mental traits is used only sparingly beyond correcting adverse recessive traits or ensuring an equal balance of males and females to each Bloodhouse. This latter reason remains more for the sake of tradition than any true need, as it is relatively easy to take DNA from two individuals and splice them into sperm and ova gametes, creating a zygote irrespective of the donor's genes: theoretically a male warrior can be a "gene-mother" and vice versa, though again this is a rare occurrence. Another theoretical yet rarely occurring practice is the ability to create clones, known as a "retread." Simply replicating an individual however implies stagnation and goes against the Clans' belief in evolution and natural selection. Lastly Clan law discourages the combining of genes from related warriors, usually within three generations of each other; despite genetic screening incest remains a taboo."

In short, the clan eugenic program is governed by a lot of tradition and bioethical beliefs among the clans.
 
Last edited:
Indecently, its still not unheard of for even Clan women of the warrior caste to have children. They can be reprimanded for doing so but the clans will let the child live and even allow them to become warriors. A cannon example of this would be Diana Pryde (who even managed to earn a bloodname because she was the child of two warrior castes members).
Diana's mother was a washed out warrior assigned to the scientist caste at the time of her pregnancy. That's quite a world of difference than an active warrior becoming pregnant.
 
Diana's mother was a washed out warrior assigned to the scientist caste at the time of her pregnancy. That's quite a world of difference than an active warrior becoming pregnant.

Very true but it made all the difference in Diana being allowed to fight for a bloodname (which she got). She argued to her Khan that both her parents being true born meant that her genes would not dilute the genetics of her bloodname.

The point is that unsanctioned freeborn children would be allowed to live. The clans don't butcher children. Now the parents might get punished, up to death, but the Clans have a lot of ethical beliefs involved in their Eugenics program.
 
Clan scientists can and do mess with more extreme forms of genetic editing, but (as Nova cameron pointed out ) that stuff is IIRC limited to the genecaste (from the interstellar players sourcebook). I don't know that there is any official canon line on raw performance level differences between male/female in the clans regarding battlefield roles. BT has been fairly agnostic on that front, having men and women in pretty much every role on the battlefield equally - BT is a fictional setting after all, you know.

Regarding Clan eugenics programs, they are very much one of the cornerstones of clan society and going against them is not taken lightly at all (the clans, warriors of kerensky, pgs 36-37, happy to quote if anyone wants it from the horse's mouth).

----
Regarding the mass killing of children and adults - um, it's called a trial of of annihilation. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Annihilation It's a real thing, and when targeted at a warrior, that warriors entire progeny, by natural or canister birth, is targeted for killing. This is not normal run of the mill everyday stuff, and it's usually reserved for the most heinous types of crimes in the clans. (TC:WOK pg 47). The scope can go from a single person to an entire clan and pretty much everything in between.
----

Both genders are kept in the warrior castes to keep human reproduction intact.

Not being combative, but I am interested in your source for that. Haven't run across it.

It doesn't take genetic engineering to do stuff like that. Take a look at all those odd-looking dog breeds and realize we did that with the wolf as a starting point.

The Clans are doing literally the same thing with people. Clan trials are basically dog shows where prized specimens are used to create the next generation.

Not quite. They will do more interactive stuff, I think. Crisper (yes, i know that's an anachronism, just using it as an example) level things. The "fiddling" is a bit more extensive, I suspect. They are certainly capable of it - witness that their genetic fiddling capabilities are such that they can create genetically targeted viruses that can target a single individual up to and including an entire "bloodline" (the wars of reaving sourcebook) That said:

230px-Bj%C3%B6rnsson_Arnold_Classic_2017.jpg


Six foot 9 inches, 400+ lb. He's big enough to qualify as an elemental, or VERY close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafþór_Júlíus_Björnsson
 
From reading Sarna.net. The clans have their own bio-ethics. They try real hard to limit how much they mess with human genetics. They could, if they wanted to, make mechwarriors sterile. They don't. They could make the warrior caste male only, they don't. They could terminate any pregnancies a female warrior caste has, again, they don't.

This is personal interpretation but in my eyes, the clans eugenics program is less about making superior humans and more about making humans at their peek. So mechwarrior genes are meant to be the best humans can be as mech pilots. Not so much about making a perfect race or superior humans. The clans idealize the human form somewhat like the ancient greeks did. Right down to keeping intact human reproduction even when the warrior caste has no right to reproduce. No, it doesn't make logical sense. But humans aren't know for perfect logic.

Hafþór_Júlíus_Björnsson huh? Must be from Clan Ghost bear. :p
 
Last edited:
It was never the intent of the clans to create the perfect warrior or super soldier. The extent of gene modification is limited to such things as correcting harmful birth defects or possibly secret black op gene modification by the scientist caste, but that was typically frowned upon and not accepted by the general Clan society.

The Clan ideal of the Warrior was more about the philosophy of honor - it was very similar to the ideal of Klingons - a warriors worth was how well he fought in battle. It was the actions of how a Clan Warrior fought that put value on his genes - the more honor a Warrior collected (recorded in their Codex which is basically a soldiers dog tag and life history), the greater chance he had to pass on his genes to the next generation. If the Warrior's descendents show the same level of honor, the those genes would be passed along again in the next generation, which would give raise to the possible of some genes becoming more dominate in the that Clan's population. It really is more a form of selective breeding than gene modification.

As I recall each Clan recognizes 40 Bloodnames from the original 800 Warriors who folllowed Nikolas Kerensky, the son of Alexander Kerensky, to Strana Mechty to form the Clans. It is from there that the genes of most Clanners are decend from. The Clans realize the possiblity of inbreeding happening within their populations, and as such do allow new genes into the pool, even from the Freeborns and former Bondsman, but those individuals must show a high level of honor and loyalty to the Clans war of life to be accepted. Unwanted genes, typically those from warriors who show dishonor or disgrace are rejected to be passed along to future generations. It is rare that a person's genes would be outright exterminated - that would call for a Trial of Annihilation - that requires a great misdeed such as Clan Wolverine who detonated nuclear devices to destroy the gene repository of another Clan.
 
...that requires a great misdeed such as Clan Wolverine who detonated nuclear devices to destroy the gene repository of another Clan.

I suggest you read "Betrayal of Ideals", you might be surprised to learn some of the true details.....