The Eleventh Thing of Rurik's Reign: The Great Thing of Vyazma - June 879
(a summary of advice from Chapter 33)
Momentous events are about to take place – but first Rurik wants to understand as best he can on the timing and implications of forming Rus, keeping the Tribal Army raised and subjugating another Duchy – the largest such grab yet. I think I’ve got all the responses I’m getting on this fairly convoluted set of questions, so I’ll take what I can (in particular) from the detailed conversation at the
Vyazma Þing between
@TheButterflyComposer and
@diskoerekto and just launch in and see what happens! Thanks very much for going to such trouble!
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General Comments
Well I am tired of saying this every episode but great episode once again, thank you!
Thank
you!
Fear not, an author will never tire of
hearing it!
@TheButterflyComposer's answers match my understanding on the game. We're into murky territory for me, though.
Nice to know I have company – this fog is a bit of a pea-souper!
Again I have to say I can't really add to questions about how the game would work.
How I would play it is I would form Rus straight away, but that might be because I would be impatient for the shiny new title.
All will be revealed in the next update!
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Ch33 Q1: Being a Threat. The figures and effects look pretty straightforward. And if Rurik keeps on his conquering ways for a while yet, I assume the threat level will rise before it starts falling again. But first question is does the threat apply to the realm in general or Rurik personally? And second, if I add a few more de jure Rus counties to the realm (say 3-6 in the next year or so) will that drive the threat factor up a lot, or just to a manageable amount (that is, less than 50%)? Any other relevant factors or helpful hints about this aspect Rurik should be bearing in mind would of course be very welcome.
Being a threat is probably the one thing that slows the mid game from turning into end game domination of everybody. With everything that Galahad did during his reign, he managed to go from zero to a hundred percent by himself by the time he was seventy. It didn't decrease that much for the rest of his reign. Threat is tied to the realm and your character, so it helps when they die but not by much. It also decreases very slowly Irma you have lots, so unless you are confident you are the greatest power in the world don't get loads ever. The threat percentage goes up exponentially as soon as you start expanding outside of your de jute realm's borders. What this means is that if you become king of Russia right now, your threat would decrease faster and rise much slower because you are basically just taking what is yours by right. This is an issue for small primary kingdoms and empires, as well as isolated ones, because any expansion at all will net the monarch severe penalties. This seems to be why Britannia doesn't expand much once unifying despite being on o the more powerful and stable empires in the game. It's hard for them to get claims on the contient' and once there they get hit with massive defensive pacts for doing so.
For you, just don't get enough that Hungary auto joins wars against you. You do no to want to give any rivals any more help, after all.
OK, so that means (to decrease the threat accumulation a bit) I can declare Rus in one breath, then in the next war on Merya (for example)? And Merya being within my new
de jure kingdom, the threat/‘BadBoy’ accrued therefor isn’t so great? Whereas if I declared war (as Holmgarðr) on Merya first,
before declaring Rus, that’s
outside my realm and therefor a
more threatening action? And declaring Rus after
wouldn’t ameliorate the threat increase, because it is what is in effect at the time war is declared? Or is the threat only gained when you win (which seemed to be the case this last time). Meaning its not so much a timing issue about declaring war, but winning it?
My only reason for hesitating/quibbling over this is that my unlimited subjugation CB I get from the Rus ambition I’m assuming dries up as soon as the ambition is satisfied. So if I declare Rus, I’m worried I might not then be able to declare the subjugation war on Merya. But if I can after all, then no problem – the sequencing issue goes away. And because I will have disbanded the levy, declared Rus then declared war (in that order, without unpausing) the Great Tribal Army will still be there and can roll into the next war? I know this sounds complicated, but it’s a matter of finicky game mechanics over what would be logically easy in the RL equivalent situation.
I’ll let the rest of this exchange (where diskoerekto and TBC discussed some of the finer points raised) run as is and let all draw their own conclusions. Though I would add that I don’t mind taking the odd risk, even as a beginner, for the greater learning benefit. And that if Europe becomes largely Norse Pagan, I’d plan it as being reformed and feudal, so hopefully getting rid of all those gavelkind succession issues – just coping with the ‘normal’ ones. But if the Rurikid Dynasty implodes after a generation or two, well it will have been a fun ride with plenty learned!
but it seems after declaring on Merya the only religions that he can declare are all outside the de jure Kingdom of Rus anyway, and during wartime the badboy cooloff is slow anyway kingdom of Rus or not. So I think it is a better move to declare wherever he can before he loses the CB (I'm not sure the CB is good for all the targets though, I never had to use that CB) and then declare the kingdom of Rus when starting the cooloff period. Are you saying to declare the kingdom before attacking Merya so it has less badboy? That might be a valid point but then there would be the necessity for a CB to declare to Merya. If he will declare to Merya without having the kingdom of Rus anyway, he will get the bigger badboy hit anyway.
Well they'll still be pagan which gives them plenty of CB against most of their neighbours and Scandinavia (but this collapses over time especially over there...so perhaps make that a priority if that's where you want to go). Kingdoms also get that new border dispute CB though its costly.
I think establishing the kingdom as soon as might be a good idea for a beginner trying to ensure a stable realm inheritance. It greatly expands options and player choice as well as makes diplomacy and marriages far easier. For a tutorial series and for this game, i would suggest forming a kingdom and unfying all parts of it first and foremost before moving on to greater things.
I believe you are more experienced than me so I think you do have a point. Well, that is the thing about things right points from all perspectives spilled on the ground
Oh I don't know about that...feudalism and Catholic cultures yes, probably one of the more experienced on the AAR board (nothing compared to many on the gaming boards though) just because I've been playing realms which became big empires when and where they usually don't and have fought big empires at the same time. Pagan and tribal cultures however are a bit less known to me because there's perhaps even more variety. I doubt it'll happen in this game but if Europe ever gets mostly pagan, you can basically throw out whatever 'normal' things happen in CKII because it screws with them all. Kingdoms probably won't exist and those that do will last the lifetime of a ruler before disappearing forever. It's a much more mad and chaotic system for continuing a game on but also a very easy system to get your very first ruler up to duke or king level, so its actually very good for beginners, they just usually quit and start again after the first ruler until they learn.
In this case then since the AAR is trying to be a tutorial series where a relative beginner (so I've been led to believe-Bullfilter?) is playing a tribal pagan game, I'd advise trying to ensure that succession now, because that's the stumbling block for new players more than anything else and especially for gavelkind tribal chiefs. However, since this is someone else's game and full disclosure and everything, I probably would go after the last duchy first and then make the kingdom. It is a riskier move but I'm more confident not just in war ability but inheritance ability (I know I can assassinate/diplo my way back to the top if it all goes wrong).
Basically either choice is fine but one is a safe option I suspect new gamers might feel comfortable doing sooner, whilst the other makes more sense from a roleplaying perspective.
<end sub-thread>
What I have understood is even though the threat is over 5%, since the MTTH has not been met yet there are no pacts against you yet. Well you have one more important conquest left and you can declare that without a pact threat. I guess Slavs and Finns would have pacts against you after that so you might try a neighbour from another religion. That was my strategy: my army is wandering around my borders attacking a kingdom of one religion (without a pact yet). as soon as i subjugate them their religion group forms a pact so I move on to the next religion. Once all religions formed a pact (and this means i subjugated around 5 kingdoms) my threat would be over 50% anyway so I would take a very long looting/raiding run until it cools off. Then recycle/repeat. That was quite efficient.
So, keep on attacking other religions until you hit 50% or you run out of religions to attack, and after that long loots to cool off. In your case, since your holy army will disappear once you stop warfare, it is best to go after big targets. So Merya first, but then you will probably be faced with Slavic and Finnish pacts. I'm guessing there aren't any Tengri or Christian kingdoms nearby so the best bet would be to go after a Romuvan Baltic kingdom? Are there another neighbor with a different religion? Well even though that's outside the kingdom (or even the empire) of Rus, that way you would have access to a port to build ships later (or if you choose to vassalize rather than take the port province for yourself then you can use your vassals ships which is what I was doing for other reasons).
OK, with these points and also the discussion above, I think I’m looking at some Blood and Battle now, what the hey. If/when the pacts start forming, I’ll just deal with/role play them as they come. If it forces me to consolidate and slow the expansion down at some point soonish, then so be it. Maybe realm development, raiding and/or Germanic Reformation will become the next stage of the learning adventure. Or sticking a fractured realm back together.
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Ch33 Q2: Keeping the Tribal Army together. So, given I still have tribal army after the peace with Zhavoronok, I’m thinking I still have a short window to roll onto the next target and retain the Tribal Army if I want to. Is that something that needs to be done straight away – or is there a small window I can use to reposition them a little better for the next target? But if it’s a matter of losing them if not immediately employed, I’ll just take the positional penalty and (subject to a review and confirmation of a new target) not risk losing them.
The same window that determines when an ill character dies of incapability. Normally near immediate but could last a weird amount of time.
Hah! Well, if I do it all before unpausing, I hope I keep them! I’ll find out soon enough.
We’ll both find out soon!
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Ch32 Q3a: Declaring Rus. Any final thoughts re timing on declaring Rus? Rurik’s intention is to do so immediately – the risk of him dying without the kingdom declared and the even uglier succession that would follow is a large one. But I’m also assuming that once the ambition of Rus is realised, that I would then lose the “unlimited subjugation” CB that comes with it. If so, should the order be: 1) dismiss levies; 2) Declare subjugation of Merya (if that’s the way he goes), then 3) Proclaim the formation of Rus? I don’t mind losing the CB for any later conquests, which would be peripheral. Merya is a big one though, so I’d like to ensure I can launch that before filling the ambition.
It would help with threat. If the target is de jure Rus, you would have a claim based on that. So just make the kingdom then war. Only reason you wouldn't would be if you don't want him personally as a vassal. As your ruler is old and popular, you can always take the tyranny hit and remove him afterwards.
Having now hashed this out more above, I think this bit mainly answers my semi-rhetorical supplementary question above. But if anyone knows for sure (I do want to subjugate before I lose the CB and take the whole lot, with him as yet another hostile vassal. Next phase may be waiting for rebellions, putting them down then purging them).
I think even for CK2, 49 is not such an advanced age although Rurik already has some problems. I've seen many rulers hit 70 and constantly horseback with scimitar and all. If you'll lose the CB than I think you can wait a little for the declaration of Rus. Soon you will have to wait to cool off badboy anyway that would be a good time to declare. So I say complete this set of subjugations (until every neighboring religion has a pact on you) and only then declare Rus. A bit riskier but I guess more optimized.
Hmmm, after Merya, I’m basically happy to pick off the rest in bits and pieces, as most of Rus will then be in the fold (with them absorbed). If I declare now, it’s too late for them to be in a pact, and if the rest then form them, I can still peck away as you mentioned before, alienating religious groups one by one but then backing off when the threat gets so high as to be prohibitive. Can do other things at that point – or just speed up the game!
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Ch33 Q3b: Succession aspects (1). So the advice of the Þing is sought as to whether there are any reasons for holding off beyond the above. Also, if there are any arcane sequencing or procedural issues I should be aware of or advice for the subsequent principles for apportioning titles etc, given the gavelkind system and one primary son and heir (Helgi) and two younger sons by Ingjerðr to consider. There are now three Jarldoms held by Rurik: Holmgarðr itself, Belo Ozero and now Tver, with the option of establishing a fourth (Pskov). Have I got it right that with Rus declared (and we did discuss this in an earlier Þing) that the declaration of Rus puts Helgi in a far stronger position than had succession fired without it, effectively breaking up the realm?
Gavelkind just means you can't destroy titles once they exist, and someone always has a claim on them. It also means that realms break up, unless you have one title that ranks over everything, so one king or one emperor title. At the moment, you have several petty kingdoms unified only because you hold all their crowns personally. When dead, these will all separate. If you were king over everything though, the heir to that kingdom keeps these new duchies as vassals instead of indepdant neighbours. So...declare Rus.
Got it. It will either be immediate, or very soon. If, for instance, Rurik were to die (especially in combat, as I still intend to use him for that) before Rus was declared – well, disaster!
No other reasons than the CB that I could think off. You'll spend some piety so if there is a decision that needs you to be over a certain limit you might want to fire that first but that's quite minor.
And the CB thing is very temporary: as mentioned above, as long as I have a legitimate one I can use on Merya (whether it’s a Rus ambition subjugation, or a ‘once per life of ruler’ or de lure one post-Rus) then I’m not worried after that. Slowing down and consolidating at that point might be a good idea anyway.
The rest about the gavelkind succession, I really have little experience but some idea. Also this post is quite helpful. So, firstly, the only kingdom title of Kingdom of Rus, Jarldom of Holmgardr (this is because your capital is already the de jure capital of the Kingdom of Rus) and the related chiefdoms (Holmgardt, Ladoga, Toropets and Torzhok?) go to the first son. After this it gets tricky. As of now it is the jarldoms of Belo Ozero and Tver in this order but once Pskov is created it might go on top of those based probably on total number of holdings, total tax value or total levies. I believe (you might choose not to believe me since I am no expert) the final order would be Belo Ozero, Tver and Pskov. So, Eilif gets Belo Ozero (and related chiefdoms Belo Ozero, Chud and Zaozerye); and Dyre gets Tver (and related chiefdoms Tver and Vyazma, I have no idea why the game lists Uglich which is supposed to be under de jure Jarldom of Rostov here. As a "loose" chiefdom it is supposed to go to the eldest son since there are more Jarldom level titles than sons). Next Jarldom Pskov and its related chiefdoms Luki and Pskov goes again to Helgi, and if you had yet another Jarldom it would have gone to Eilif again.
So TLDR: Helgi gets the kingdom level title, the de jure Capital County, the Jarldom associated with the de jure Capital County and all other counties of that Jarldom. If you had another capital he would have had that county (but not necessarily the Jarldom or other counties of that Jarldom) as well.
Eilif gets the 2nd "important/strong" Jarldom and all other counties of that Jarldom.
Dyre gets the 3rd "important/strong" Jarldom and all other counties of that Jarldom. If there was no Jarldom for Dyre, he would have had all the "loose" chiefdoms (Smolensk, Ingria, Vologda etc???) but not to the point that it makes him stronger than Helgi, so for example he would have had the strongest 3 loose chiefdoms, Helgi would have had the 4th, he would have had the 5th....
If Pskov is not created all ends here. If Pskov is also in the lot then the turn goes back to Helgi. If there were yet another Jarldom it would have gone to Eilif and so on and so forth.
EDIT: The TLDR is longer then the paragraph before it lol
One thing is: titles given to sons before succession still count during succession. So for example if for some reason you want Dyre to get Belo Ozero but not rob Eilif of a Jarldom, you can just give Belo Ozero to Dyre beforehand. Eilif gets the next strongest Jarldom when it's his turn (Tver?) and Dyre skips his turn because he already has Belo Ozero. Rest continues as normal.
Thanks on the extra details there re pre-allocating titles if I want a particular son to get them post-succession. I’m actually happy enough with the way it looks like the goodies will be distributed. For the record, I’m not looking to sub-allocate anything to anyone while Rurik remains alive (unless something unforeseen crops up, which is likely with me as there’s not much I can foresee). Will let the cards fall as they will.
Ch33 Q3b: Succession aspects (2). Also, assuming Merya is subjugated under the Kingdom of Rus as another (fourth) Jarldom, would Helgi assume that on Rurik’s death, as both the other sons would already have a Jarldom allocated by then? And finally, given the Petty Kingdom of Holmgarðr has seven counties it makes a pretty healthy royal demesne, so the rest being run in jarldoms seems the best that can be done under the current tribal gavelkind system. Or is bringing another angry vassal in so soon a mistake – biting off more than we can chew?
Yes, probably.
Again, yes.
So do you mean what would happen if you take the title of the Jarldom of Merya? (Firstly, there is no de jure Jarldom of Merya; it is a Chiefdom level title and just like Rurik holds a Jarldom level title but is the king as a sort of first among equals, the ruler of Merya is merely a high chief probably without any Jarldom level titles, I guess or maybe he holds the Jarldom of Rostov) I guess you will not add all those provinces to your demesne so I take it as your Jarldom level vassals do not keep their Jarldom level titles. Well I think Merya (if such Jarldom exists, or let's say Rostov) would be a fifth (Holmgardr, Belo Ozero, Tver, Pskov before it) Jarldom, right? Also, if the wiki is correct there are more than 1 Jarldom in Merya. Moskva is in Moskva Jarldom (Mozhaysk is the other chiefdom of this Jarldom but somebody else has it), Kostroma and Yaroslavl is in Yaroslavl Jarldom (as is the loose chiefdom of Vologda), Merya and Pereyaslavl Zalessky is in Rostov Jarldom (as is the loose chiefdom of Uglich but for some reason Uglich is listed going to Dyre with the Jarldom of Tver, why is that so that beats me you should check from in game which are the de jure duchies, maybe the wiki is outdated). Still, you are looking at 3 more Jarldoms and not one. But as I said in the previous paragraph, normally all Jarldoms will go in turn of strength to each of the sons and when the sons are finished start over so you'll probably have 7 Jarldoms from which Helgi will get the prime (the de jure Jarldom that has the de jure capital of your actual kingdom) and the 4th and 7th best ones, Eilif will get the 2nd and 5th best ones, Dyre will get the 3rd and 6th best ones unless you specifically grant some of them to some of your sons before hand
About angry vassals, I actually like them a lot. An angry vassal is much better then a slightly discontent one. The latter would cause non-major headaches for centuries while the former would just rebel, get beheaded and his Jarldom given to loyal guys. As the ruler of the realm you can decide how the kids are raised so if you choose all their kids to be in the religion branch, they will all turn Norse and in a generation you might have loyal vassals. Or if they are angry, they'll just rebel, die and get replaced by loyal ones. Either way you win.
I won’t be creating the Pskov Jarldom any time soon, if ever. I’m hoping to keep enough ‘free’ counties available to fill whatever the current and future king’s maximum demesne will be. The rest would have to be distributed to someone (ie a vassal) anyway. And as a tribal leader, my king can have a gazillion of them – so I wouldn’t need to create lots of Jarls to manage them.
And yes, one of the reasons (apart from quick progress to Rus) I’ve gone for these subjugations is that Rurik (and a successor) has a pretty large personal demesne in terms of number of counties, anyway (per previous stats, about fourth in the entire game world), so if these angry new vassals (or angry old ones, for that matter) want to start something, then they can fill their boots! They will be smacked down, executed (or imprisoned forever, sent to the blot, etc) and replaced with good Norse Germanic stock!
Ch33 Q3b: Succession aspects (3). And a final question - how does the relationship work when the overall liege (in this case Helgi) also owns a county that is itself part of a subordinate Jarldom to him?
You mean Helgi owns a county before the his father dies? I'm not really sure about this. The way I see it there are 2 options: Either he might get the de jure Jarldom associated with that chiefdom but forfeit his turn to get another Jarldom (less likely result), or the de jure Jarldom associated with that chiefdom goes to whoever it would go but that county stays with Helgi. That would be similar to the case if your actual capital was somewhere else than your de jure capital. Helgi would have had the prime Jarldom (the Jarldom with the de jure capital of the Kingdom) in addition to one single chiefdom which is the de facto (actual) capital and whoever would hold this second Jarldom would still hold it at the Jarldom level. A 3rd and very unlikely result would be that county reverting to whoever gets to have the de jure Jarldom associated. I know it sounds complicated, and it really is. However once you think about the logic of it for some time you'll start having correct gut feelings about what will go to whom.
More that some of the counties he’s listed as the
heir to form part of the Jarldoms his brothers are due to inherit. Whether that actually occurs or not, I don’t know and will find out. I suppose it would just mean his brothers would have claims on those counties and it could cause enmity down the track …
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Ch33 Q4: Next stop Merya? So here is the next cab off the rank for Rurik’s desperate push to expand what will soon be his new realm of Rus. Before Konugarðr grabs any more of the de jure lands, as they have in Mozhaysk (to the immediate south of Tver). Anything I may be missing here? Or is it a good prospect for more offensive mayhem – the Blood and Battle Rurik is now famous for! While the rest of the levies and the Smaleskjan (or Smolenskian) vassal regiment would once again have to be dismissed and re-mustered, the Great Tribal Army and the Holmgarðian Regiment alone would match Merya’s likely numbers and are close enough in Vyazma to march to Merya quite quickly from the west.
Get the kingdom established and all the land within it taken for you. Then expand outwards. Threat levels, remember.
Ideally you shouldn't stop until you either go over 50% badboy or run out of neighbors with religions that did not form coalitions against you. And sometimes (not this time I guess) you shouldn't stop even then if you can handle them all. Just let the neckbiter bite necks.
OK, Rus and Merya first and that will give me a better feel for what I do next (ie seeing how badly the threat jumps, seeing what smaller de jure Rus territory remains, what CBs I have/need on them, etc). Other priorities (some concurrent, others maybe not) have been mentioned before: reforming the Germanic faith, being able to move on from gavelkind, raiding (and acquiring coastal provinces of my own so I can start building boats for when the 40 event generated boats disappear with Rurik’s death), developing my core counties (have had to neglect that a little recently), etc.
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Properly advised, Rurik will next make some quick decisions and get on with it. But if there’s any supplementary or clarifying advice per the conversations and questions above, there’s time to give him some ‘late mail’ before he proceeds. Back to my other AAR now, then Rurik should advance in a day or two!
As always thanks for reading and (when you do) commenting. As I've mentioned before, even a little 'agree' tick to let me know it's been read and not completely loathed is nice.
Rurik pauses for a moment and a prescient scene flashes before his eyes … a great and long-lived Rurikid dynasty of mighty rulers, its capital a great city (Nygarðr, the future Novgorod of our time line), bringing Norse-Germanic culture and religion with a Rus flavour to the vast lands of the steppe and beyond.
