SPQR

[Palatinus Germanicus]

The Senate and People of Rome, of course. But there's something I'm having trouble understanding. Let's start with Paradox games, since that's why we're all here. Btw, that advertisement ("Imperator Rome") at top of our screens is totally coincidental, though it plays right into what I can't figure out. So in EU4, if you restore the Roman Empire, your flag changes to this:

And the achievement you get is this:

In CK2, if you take the ERE (Byzantium) back to full glory, your flag is:

And the achievement:

You see the recurring theme, here. But here's what I can't understand... the Senate is long gone. It never really made the transfer from Italia, to Constantinople. And even before that, wasn't it greatly diminished (if not totally moot) as of the reign of Augustus (if not Caesar)? So imagine this... if I'm in EU4 and I restore Rome, my title is 'Imperator'. I'm an absolute monarch, fully autocratic. Same thing in the CK2 era, really. There is no 'Senate'. There is only me, the great & powerful emperor.

So what is all this 'SPQR' stuff? If I were actually emperor, I wouldn't want any reminders hanging around to remind the people of the representative republic that they USED to have... a long, long time ago. So I just don't get it. Everyone always goes around saying SPQR this, SPQR that. What are you talking about?? It's gone! It doesn't exist! Even if you restore the empire to it's past glory, it's still just that -- an empire. There is no precious "Senate and People of Rome". That was squashed or... phased out a long time ago.

So what's the deal? Is it a lament for a bygone era? An ongoing hope & dream for the ideal of the past? The fabled shining city on a hill that Reagan referred to? "Maximus, we must whisper about this. Anything more, and it will vanish..." Well, dude -- it did vanish. So why the heck is it still on these flags? And why does everyone refer to Rome using totally obsolete nomenclature... in reference to a totally wiped out form of government?

I don't get it. Seems to me that if you're an empire, with a fully autocratic emperor ruling you, then you should just man-up, and face the facts. So was this really a thing during the historical period (maybe everyone just liked living in denial?), or is it just a bunch of revisionism / idealism spawned from more modern times?

Even Mussolini put SPQR in various places, like manhole covers on the street, that can still be seen today. Who are you trying to fool? Are you saying you're going to let us elect a Senate, and they'll vote on whether you go invade Albania & Greece, and then join the Axis?? What is this nonsense?

 

[Geriander]

Think of it as the ”Peoples Democratic Republic of...” that modern dictatorships may use but with the added benefit centuries of tradition and prestige. Its a fiction that adds legitimacy to the emperor.

 

[trybald]

There was a Senate in the Byzantine Empire. It was prestigious if not a little bit ceremonial, and it is suspected that it had some function in day-to-day governing the city of Constantinople. It did however surface for a bigger political role few times during bigger crises, even as late as in the Comnenian era. It didn't survive the catastrophe of 1204 though.

The old Senate of Rome also survived the fall of the Empire in the West in 476/480. It was last mentioned as functioning in 603 and only later disappeared in obscure circumstances. Curiously, several prominent inhabitants of Rome were still occasionally granted the title of a "Senator" for centuries to come, though that was most likely a just hollow title without any practical function.

Edit: typo

 

[Count Blue]

The old Senate of Rome also survived the fall of the Empire in the West in 476/480. It was last mentioned as functioning in 603 and only later disappeared in obscure circumstances. Curiously, several prominent inhabitants of Rome were still occasionally granted the title of a "Senator" for centuries to come, though that was most likely a just hollow title without any practical function.

Interesting.

 

[Yakman]

Interesting.

yup. remember, the original senate wasn't much more than the town council, where the local poobahs would get together and talk about local issues. when Rome became a major power, the Senate, being the leadership, became this incredibly important institution, but its origins weren't more glorified than any local assembly.

it kinda reverted back to its initial state in the latter days, after the world had moved on.

 

[Kovax]

There are a lot of people who love to use "borrowed" prestige and legitimacy from the past to make their own actions and status seem more acceptable. "SPQR" has the ring of past glory and tradition that many kings and lesser leaders wanted for themselves. Modern institutions still do the same thing, just not so much with Rome anymore.

As I understand it, the term "SPQR" means something roughly to the effect of "by order of the majority (Quorum) of the Roman (Romanum) public (Publius)". Unless you're calling yourself or your country "Rome", it really doesn't apply.

The Senate continued to take care of Rome's local affairs throughout most of the Imperial period, although the major decisions were usually done by Imperial decree. Even then, the Senate was frequently asked to "rubber stamp" the legislation, to give it more of a sense of legitimacy.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The Senate and People of Rome, of course. But there's something I'm having trouble understanding. Let's start with Paradox games, since that's why we're all here. Btw, that advertisement ("Imperator Rome") at top of our screens is totally coincidental, though it plays right into what I can't figure out. So in EU4, if you restore the Roman Empire, your flag changes to this:

And the achievement you get is this:

In CK2, if you take the ERE (Byzantium) back to full glory, your flag is:

And the achievement:

You see the recurring theme, here. But here's what I can't understand... the Senate is long gone. It never really made the transfer from Italia, to Constantinople. And even before that, wasn't it greatly diminished (if not totally moot) as of the reign of Augustus (if not Caesar)? So imagine this... if I'm in EU4 and I restore Rome, my title is 'Imperator'. I'm an absolute monarch, fully autocratic. Same thing in the CK2 era, really. There is no 'Senate'. There is only me, the great & powerful emperor.

So what is all this 'SPQR' stuff? If I were actually emperor, I wouldn't want any reminders hanging around to remind the people of the representative republic that they USED to have... a long, long time ago. So I just don't get it. Everyone always goes around saying SPQR this, SPQR that. What are you talking about?? It's gone! It doesn't exist! Even if you restore the empire to it's past glory, it's still just that -- an empire. There is no precious "Senate and People of Rome". That was squashed or... phased out a long time ago.

So what's the deal? Is it a lament for a bygone era? An ongoing hope & dream for the ideal of the past? The fabled shining city on a hill that Reagan referred to? "Maximus, we must whisper about this. Anything more, and it will vanish..." Well, dude -- it did vanish. So why the heck is it still on these flags? And why does everyone refer to Rome using totally obsolete nomenclature... in reference to a totally wiped out form of government?

I don't get it. Seems to me that if you're an empire, with a fully autocratic emperor ruling you, then you should just man-up, and face the facts. So was this really a thing during the historical period (maybe everyone just liked living in denial?), or is it just a bunch of revisionism / idealism spawned from more modern times?

Even Mussolini put SPQR in various places, like manhole covers on the street, that can still be seen today. Who are you trying to fool? Are you saying you're going to let us elect a Senate, and they'll vote on whether you go invade Albania & Greece, and then join the Axis?? What is this nonsense?

The answer is very simple.

Walk through the streets of Rome.

SPQR is stamped on EVERYTHING. Manhole covers in the street. Light fixtures. If it belongs to the city, SPQR is stamped on it.

 

[Captain Frakas]

The Senate and People of Rome

Senatus populusque Romanus mean "The Roman Senate and People" actually. Romanus being the adjective "Roman" which apply both to the Roman Senate and the Roman People.

The Senate and People of Rome would be senatus populusque Romae.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

And remember even during the Empire, Rome was officially still a Republic. Imperium Romanorum literally means 'The power of the Romans', the english word 'Empire' has more specific connotations than the original latin term.

 

[Semper Victor]

The Senate and People of Rome, of course. But there's something I'm having trouble understanding. Let's start with Paradox games, since that's why we're all here. Btw, that advertisement ("Imperator Rome") at top of our screens is totally coincidental, though it plays right into what I can't figure out. So in EU4, if you restore the Roman Empire, your flag changes to this:

And the achievement you get is this:

In CK2, if you take the ERE (Byzantium) back to full glory, your flag is:

And the achievement:

You see the recurring theme, here. But here's what I can't understand... the Senate is long gone. It never really made the transfer from Italia, to Constantinople. And even before that, wasn't it greatly diminished (if not totally moot) as of the reign of Augustus (if not Caesar)? So imagine this... if I'm in EU4 and I restore Rome, my title is 'Imperator'. I'm an absolute monarch, fully autocratic. Same thing in the CK2 era, really. There is no 'Senate'. There is only me, the great & powerful emperor.

So what is all this 'SPQR' stuff? If I were actually emperor, I wouldn't want any reminders hanging around to remind the people of the representative republic that they USED to have... a long, long time ago. So I just don't get it. Everyone always goes around saying SPQR this, SPQR that. What are you talking about?? It's gone! It doesn't exist! Even if you restore the empire to it's past glory, it's still just that -- an empire. There is no precious "Senate and People of Rome". That was squashed or... phased out a long time ago.

So what's the deal? Is it a lament for a bygone era? An ongoing hope & dream for the ideal of the past? The fabled shining city on a hill that Reagan referred to? "Maximus, we must whisper about this. Anything more, and it will vanish..." Well, dude -- it did vanish. So why the heck is it still on these flags? And why does everyone refer to Rome using totally obsolete nomenclature... in reference to a totally wiped out form of government?

I don't get it. Seems to me that if you're an empire, with a fully autocratic emperor ruling you, then you should just man-up, and face the facts. So was this really a thing during the historical period (maybe everyone just liked living in denial?), or is it just a bunch of revisionism / idealism spawned from more modern times?

Even Mussolini put SPQR in various places, like manhole covers on the street, that can still be seen today. Who are you trying to fool? Are you saying you're going to let us elect a Senate, and they'll vote on whether you go invade Albania & Greece, and then join the Axis?? What is this nonsense?

First, the Senate retained an important role in the government of the Roman state until the middle the III century CE. In 238 CE, it was still capable of toppling an emperor elected by the Rhenish legions like Maximinus Thrax.

Second, the Roman state never ceased being a "republic" in its strict, ethimologycal sense. In Latin, res publica means literally "the public thing", which can be rendered more properly in English as "the public affairs" or as it’s been historically translated, "the commonwealth". Still in the IV and V centuries CE, official laws and edicts in the western and eastern parts of the empire used the expression res publica to refer to the Roman state.

Thirdly, you’re right in that there’s been a lot of confusion in the using of vocabulary of Latin origin and a lot of wishful thinking and projection of modern realities into Roman times. For starters, the Roman Senate was never an elected assembly. Senators inherited their post an they were in the Senate for their entire lives. In Republican times, they could only be expelled from them by the censores, either by "inappropriate behavior" (a term that was as vague in reality as it sounds) or because a senator had dropped under the compulsory threshold of personal property needed to qualify for the post (one million sesterces). Under the empire, the censores disappeared, and it was the emperor who decreed who could join or should leave the Senate. It was never a "democratic" or "republican" assembly in the modern sense of the term, just a gathering of the Roman aristocracy and oligarchy. It had much more in common with medieval institutions like the Senate of Venice or the Polish-Lithuanian Sejm than with modern western assemblies.

 

[Semper Victor]

And remember even during the Empire, Rome was officially still a Republic. Imperium Romanorum literally means 'The power of the Romans', the english word 'Empire' has more specific connotations than the original latin term.

Imperium was the highest form of authority (warning; auctoritas in Latin had a different meaning than in modern languages) that could be invested onto a Roman magistrate. More specifically, it gave the magistrate the right of life and death over Roman citizens outside the pomerium (the urban limits of the city of Rome). It was closely associated to military command because the power of life and death over the soldiers was deemed essential to keep discipline among the rank and file. The magistracies who exerted imperium were considered as major magistracies (aedil, magister equitum, praetor, consul and dictator) and the magistrates who held them enjoyed the right to be accompanied by lictores carrying the fasces, which were fitted with axes only when they were outside the pomerium as a symbol of their power of life and death.

 

[Katsuki126]

Second, the Roman state never ceased being a "republic" in its strict, ethimologycal sense. In Latin, res publica means literally "the public thing", which can be rendered more properly in English as "the public affairs" or as it’s been historically translated, "the commonwealth". Still in the IV and V centuries CE, official laws and edicts in the western and eastern parts of the empire used the expression res publica to refer to the Roman state.

Yes, the expression res publica is used to distinguish the regime from the former kings. It means that the state, and Rome itself, is not the personal domain of someone (as in a monarchy) but that it does belong to the public (ie. the citizens)

 

[Count Blue]

yup. remember, the original senate wasn't much more than the town council, where the local poobahs would get together and talk about local issues. when Rome became a major power, the Senate, being the leadership, became this incredibly important institution, but its origins weren't more glorified than any local assembly.

it kinda reverted back to its initial state in the latter days, after the world had moved on.

Thanks for all that clarifying.
Sadly I havent go the education to read that in original latin.
May I ask where did you get that info?
There doesnt seem to be a lot of books about that era (from 300 to 700 )

 

[DukeDayve]

I wouldn't say the senate was defunct from the moment Augustus came to power. It did go on to run a lot of the empire right up until it fell in 476. The emperor ruled dangerous frontier provinces and the senate ran the rest. They obviously were dominated by the emperors but they did function. They even appointed a couple of (bad) emperors.

 

[Yakman]

Thanks for all that clarifying.
Sadly I havent go the education to read that in original latin.
May I ask where did you get that info?
There doesnt seem to be a lot of books about that era (from 300 to 700 )

I would go to the classics like Gibbon.

You are correct that there are not many sources.

 

[Count Blue]

You are correct that there are not many sources.

Thanks for confirming my perception.
I shall try and look at my public library.
I am actual austrian and such german would be my first language so I probably go for books in that "tongue".

 

[Yakman]

Thanks for confiming my perception.
I shall try and look at my public library.
I am actual austrian and such german would be my first language so I probably go for books in that "tongue".

Gibbon has been translated many times over. although he wrote his books 250 years ago, and if you can avoid his biases, he's still the best resource for 2nd hand sources for the discussion of which you are talking about. dude knew what he was doing.

 

[Henry IX]

SPQR denotes that the thing is there based on the wishes of the senate and people. The Emperor is after all simply acting in the best interests of the people. He must be. That's why the thing has SPQR on it. Clearly.