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Dev Diary #91 - Altering the Alps and Idealizing Italy

Hello there! I hope everyone’s summer is going well, and that you are as excited for this week’s Dev Diary as I am to write it!


As I mentioned last time, this week we are going to take a look at the area around the Alps, as well as take a look at Italy. For our first preview, we will take a look at the western Alps, around the Kingdom of Burgundy, southern Germany and northern Italy.


Keep in mind that not all the changes are finalized, so there might be more updates before everything goes live. All the pictures will be taken from 1066 and with De Jure map modes, so things might look somewhat different in other bookmarks.

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So the first change we will be talking about is the changes to the County of Burgundy. We have cut it up, and made it into its own Duchy (of Franche Comté). The old Duchy of Upper Burgundy has lost its headway into the Swiss heartlands as well, moving the county of Schwyz (old Grisons), Zurichgau (old Schwyz) and Thurgau (old St. Gallen) into the new Duchy of Upper Swabia. In the later starting date, they will be part of the Duchy of Switzerland instead of Upper Swabia, a change that can happen throughout a game as well.

The county of Vaud has been added to the game, to the old Duchy of Upper Burgundy, cut out of certain parts of Geneva and Neuchatel. The final noticeable change on this side of the Alps, is that we have added Aosta to the mountains between Savoy and Italy.

For that part of the Alps, we wanted to make smaller changes, cut up some of the larger provinces and fix a lot of the barony errors and some of the county errors (see Schwyz further up the text). It was important for us to try and fix a lot of these minor issues, as it felt weird seeing some areas so misplaced on the map.

On the other side of the Alps, we have cut up some of the larger provinces. Monferrato has been cut up to make room for Ivrea, Lombardy has been cut up to make room for Milano, Como and Leventina, and Genoa has been cut up to make room for Noli.

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We can start out in Italy, where we left off from the previous picture. Trent has been turned into its own minor Duchy, opening up Brenner Pass between Bozen and Innsbruck. Innsbruck and Tirol has moved a bit westwards, to make room for Pongau as part of the new Duchy of Salzburg. In Bavaria, we have added the county of Regensburg, as it was the capital of the Duchy for quite a while, and we wanted to see that reflected in the game. Passau has also been moved into the Duchy.

To the east, Austria has gotten quite the rework. We have added Traungau, Steyr Freistadt, Krems and Melk as Counties, moved Znojmo into Bohemia and Passau, as previously mentioned, into Bavaria, and Styria has been moved south into its own Duchy. The Duchy of Carinthia has been cut up into Carinthia and Carniola, and the Duchy of Friuli has been added around Aquileia.

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So for our last location, we have central Italy. I figure I will talk about the mountains first, as we have added parts of the Apennines throughout Italy. We’ve felt this has increased the tactical value of Italy somewhat, as the choices you make for movement and county conquering feels a bit more valuable, and we also felt it cut up the county more nicely, particularly considering the new Kingdom we added in central Italy (this will be discussed further down).

We have added Perugia into the Duchy of Spoleto, moving the whole Duchy a bit further north. Rimini has been added to the Duchy of Ancona, turned the two county Duchy into a three county one, to lessen the amount of chokepoints post-mountainfication.For the old county of Aprutium, we have turned it into the Duchy of Abruzzo and moved it into the Kingdom of Sicily. And we have taken parts of the old County of Firenze, and added the county of Arezzo, to make sure Firenze doesn’t stick its fingers into everyone else, as it has had a tendency to do.

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So for what I assume will be the most controversial change to the region, the two new Kingdoms added.

For Carinthia, it felt weird giving even more land to a Kingdom that is meant to reflect the historical Stem-Duchy of Bavaria, when we have the Principality of Carantania, the March of Carinthia and later on the Duchy of Carinthia as inspiration that could take the same role. We have made sure, as this is quite the small Kingdom with a lot of land held by the same person in some bookmarked starts, that the AI won’t create the Kingdom right away, so it should be more of a player goal than an AI goal.

And… For Romagna, we wanted to cut Italy into its more historical pieces, without adding a Kingdom called “the Papal States” that was only for an unplayable Theocracy. This was done for several reason: having the Pope try to seek out central Italy as he did throughout history, having the old East Roman areas be more difficult to hold onto for the Kingdom of Italy in the first bookmarks, and to lessen the massive size of the Kingdom of Italy.

So I hope the Dev Diary didn’t get too wordy this time around, and that people can learn to love the changes made to the region! Next time around, we will have a (probably smaller) Dev Diary about the changes made to Holy Orders in Holy Fury!

PS. For those of you with an interest in the Habsburg jaw and the Archduchy of Austria, we have something special for you as well! (A special decision to create the Archduchy.)

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But that was actually the historical kingdom of Italy, held by the Holy Roman Emperor.
...not exactly. That's complicated.
Historical kingdom of Italy included Romagna by Emperor claim, but Papal States were independent through Diploma Ottonianum. That was a point of hot debates, and one of reasons for Wars of the Guelphs and Ghibellines.
 
...not exactly. That's complicated.
Historical kingdom of Italy included Romagna by Emperor claim, but Papal States were independent through Diploma Ottonianum. That was a point of hot debates, and one of reasons for Wars of the Guelphs and Ghibellines.
Only issue I have with the way Italy is currently divided is Romagna. If their aim is to encourage historical outcomes for the Papal States though, i can see why they would do it.
 
So how many new provinces is that confirmed in this Dev Diary? I counted a total of 78 new ones added in all the other HF Dev Diaries. This thing is close to adding as many new provinces as JD did, which is surprising.
 
That exact same territory is called the Kingdom of Italy under the Holy Roman Empire though. Not like people are just making up ways to call a tiny thing Italy. The Lombards called their Kingdom Italia as well.

Wikipedia says;

The Kingdom of the Lombards (Latin: Regnum Langobardorum) also known as the Lombard Kingdom; later the Kingdom of (all) Italy (Latin: Regnum totius Italiae), was an early medieval state established by the Lombards, a Germanic people, on the Italian Peninsula in the latter part of the 6th century.

Not the most reliable source, but the point is that the 'later' in question probably aligns with greater control of most of Italy; i.e. the Exarchate of Ravenna being incorporated. Hence the Kingdom of all Italy.

It would make sense, at least in the earliest bookmark for it to be the Kingdom of Langobardia;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langobardia_Major

HRE Kingdom of Italy also makes sense historically and is probably applicable to more bookmarks so... whatever I guess.
 
Only issue I have with the way Italy is currently divided is Romagna. If their aim is to encourage historical outcomes for the Papal States though, i can see why they would do it.
Well, I don't like superkingdoms, so I'm up for making them smaller. The one thing I'd make also would be splitting Kingdom of England into Northumbria and Mercia, with player being able to create/hold only one of them, and with decision to rename one of them into England if second became titular.
 
It certainly feels like a forced add to now have those ahistorical kingdoms. I would prefer that you had moved the duchy of Carinthia to the kingdom of Italy. Even making Carinthia part of the Kingdom of Venice would have had a lot more sense. Now we have Friuli and its Italian population inside an invented kingdom just for the sake of playability when the kingdom of Italy was just ok. Now with the addition of the fictional kingdoms of Romagna and Carinthia it feels like I am playing a fantasy game. I would be very thankful if you would leave de jure kingdoms as they are in this region. I don't want another Lappland please.
 
Wikipedia says;

The Kingdom of the Lombards (Latin: Regnum Langobardorum) also known as the Lombard Kingdom; later the Kingdom of (all) Italy (Latin: Regnum totius Italiae), was an early medieval state established by the Lombards, a Germanic people, on the Italian Peninsula in the latter part of the 6th century.
Fully aware of all of this. However we make allowances for Sicily despite it not existing yet as well, and the southern dukes of the Lombard kingdom were very autonomous and actively combative with the court in Pavia. Makes about as much sense as Burgundy being its own tag in EU4.
 
What? The Papal States are already a titular kingdom.
The Italy in this future patch is no longer 'Italy'. It's more like just half of it!

Romagna was not a seperate kingdom, but part of Italy!
Everything north of the in-game kingdom of Sicily was considered part of Italy, the Holy Roman Emperors claimed King of Italy as one of their titles. I don't want 'Romagna' to ever exist because it should be part of Italy!
I'll be removing that silly addition ASAP.

I don't know if anyone's pointed this out yet, but the area of the new kingdom of Carinthia was absent from the HRE's Kingdom of Italy. The area listed as Romagna matches decently with the Exarchate of Ravenna's "core territory", matches the Late Medieval Papal States in the form of a secular kingdom so that the associated Central Italian region isn't necessarily restricted to Catholic theocracy, and well reflects the relative autonomy of those 'frontier regions' of the empire that were under the Pope's control since at least the 13th century in the high-to-late middle ages.
 
Well, I don't like superkingdoms, so I'm up for making them smaller. The one thing I'd make also would be splitting Kingdom of England into Northumbria and Mercia, with player being able to create/hold only one of them, and with decision to rename one of them into England if second became titular.
Wessex might be a more sensible kingdom if that were to happen considering Alfred the Great. I wouldn't mind a decision like India has at all though.
 
They should really rename that kingdom to something else. The Romagna isn't even a third of what that territory entails.
 
They should really rename that kingdom to something else. The Romagna isn't even a third of what that territory entails.

From an etymological standpoint, "Romagna" simply means "The land of the Romans", so its ownership under the Pope/Byzantines as traditionally distinct from Lombards/Goths/Germans could be a potential means for the name to carry through.

Maybe not a perfect name, but if it helps there is that much.
 
Nice to see the rework around the Eastern Alps, but I do have some suggestions on how it could be further improved.

First of all, I'd rename the province of "Tyrol" to "Landeck". It's strange to see Innsbruck, Bozen and Trent - all cities - being their own provinces, while another sizeable part of the duchy of is simply called Tyrol - which is a region. There actually IS a small town named Tirol - from which the duchy gets it's name, but that's a small hamlet that should be in the province of Bozen.

Secondly, have you thought of giving away Chur to Upper Swabia and merge the duchies of Tyrol and Trent? That would make a nice four province duchy and would model the ambitions local lords had of controlling both sides of the Brenner pass.
 
Not the most reliable source, but the point is that the 'later' in question probably aligns with greater control of most of Italy; i.e. the Exarchate of Ravenna being incorporated. Hence the Kingdom of all Italy.
That's why I believe it should be Empire-tier title, incorporated into HRE if it's formed. Same for Germany - Imperial Regnum Teutonicum included ck2 Bavaria, Saxony, Lotharingia, Germany and Frisia. And a half of Pomerania. Too big for de-jure kingdom, I'd say.

Wessex might be a more sensible kingdom if that were to happen considering Alfred the Great. I wouldn't mind a decision like India has at all though.
Not as I see define name as principal. South England and North England. Northumberland-Lancaster-York-Glouchester for North, East Anglia-Essex-Kent-Mercia-Wessex for South. At least for earliest start.
UPD: I'm using Mercia because Mercian Supremacy, when Mercia included territories I mean. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Mercian_Supremacy_x_4.svg - something like this.
 
Hello! Great job as usual, especially for including the Appennine mountains which, despite being lesser known than the Alps, certainly represented a major logistic challenge in the peninsula.

I am a bit concerned, however, about the naming of the new Kingdom of Romagna. I understand it is supposed to resemble both the Exarchate of Italy (or of Ravenna) and the Papal States. I think that the name "Romagna" is a bit misleading, because:
  • Romagna is and historically was a small part of the de jure territory of this kingdom. Also, if I understand well and the capital of the new kingdom is still Rome, the historical Romagna does not contain the in-game capital. If pressed, I would say that Romagna roughly corresponds to the counties of Ferrara, Ravenna, and Rimini. Calling a territory equivalent to the Papal States "the Kingdom of Romagna" would be like splitting Sweden in two, and calling the southern part (including Stockholm) "the Kingdom of Scania".
  • The name "Romagna" might suggest to some people that "Roma" (Rome) has something to do with it – as in "Magna Roma" (Rome the Great) – and, therefore, that Romagna can be thought of as a territory containing Rome. We know that Romagna comes from Ρωμανια via Romania, and it was first used in the Exarchate of Italy to design the area nearby Ravenna, which was still administered according to Roman (imperial) uses, as opposed to the new Longobard ones popular in the rest of Italy. So it really has nothing to do with the city of Rome.
  • The new Kingdom of Italy does not look like any historical kingdom. We can have a look at the Ostrogothic "Regnum Italiæ", the "Regnum Longobardorum" in 572, 584, 616, 652, 744, or 751, or the Kingdom of Italy within the Holy Roman Empire. We see that most of the time, this kingdom looks more similar to what in game is the Empire of Italia. In any case, it looks to me that it never comprised a territory roughly equivalent to the new Kingdom of Italy (if not, perhaps, in the case of Alboin's Lombard kingdom in 572, but this is outside our considered timeframe). If anything, this new "reduced" kingdom looks more like Rome's Gallia Cisalpina, or the later Napoleonic Cisalpine Kingdom, although both were smaller.
In short, I suggest the names of Romagna and Italy be changed. I am not sure what Romagna should be called, perhaps the Exarchate of Ravenna? As for Italy, maybe Cisalpina? Sorry if I cannot be very constructive, but naming these two territories is a tough challenge.
 
his was done for several reason: having the Pope try to seek out central Italy as he did throughout history
So now the Pope will be more active and try to gain land for himself? Has this happened in some of your playtests?
 
I think the problem with redesigning Italy is the fact that history took a really weird turn that makes almost no sense once converted in CK2 terms:
- I understand that making Papal State more proactive comes from gaming needs, but I don't think the best way to do that would be to create an artificial kingdom of Romagna with very little sense (unless you recover Byzantine terms that were already extinct from 300 hundreds years... Following the same reasoning you should consider Sardinia and Corsica as part of the Kingdom of Africa!). At this point I think it would be better to create some form of "donation" system where if a bordering catholic duke dies heirless the dukedom would find Papal State as new liege if the Catholic authority is high enough (maybe with a succesive event chain for the new duke that could accept the situation or rebel).
- IMHO I don't think the Kingdom of Italy should be split: it was historically a land so huge that was "only a geographical expression" until XIX century and forming it is one of the most fun challenges in the game (well, unless you start with Matilde and marry well... ;)
- Another welcome change would be to split the various italian cultures and maybe include some form of strife between guephs and ghibellines (something like the arabic and darmic schools could be a decent start... or use factions, or cults, something please!).

Bottom line: I understand that the need to monetize pushes for newer and fancier DLS but right now the italian peninsula is one of the most overlooked areas of the game, and these map changes are a small step, and not in the right direction.
 
Well, I don't like superkingdoms, so I'm up for making them smaller. The one thing I'd make also would be splitting Kingdom of England into Northumbria and Mercia, with player being able to create/hold only one of them, and with decision to rename one of them into England if second became titular.

Wessex might be a more sensible kingdom if that were to happen considering Alfred the Great. I wouldn't mind a decision like India has at all though.

Turning the current Duchy level "Petty Kingdoms" of Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia and maybe even East Anglia into proper Kingoms and adding a decission in which an Anglosaxon/English/Norman ruler holding them could merge them into the Kingdom of England would be perfect, in a similar way to the "Become Samrat Chakravartin" event which forms India.

A similar thing could be done with Iberian kingdoms, allowing some kind of instant and forced De Jure drift and assimilating secondary kingdoms into your main title, in order to represent how Castile and Aragon consolidated into "Crowns", each one composed of small "kingdoms".