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that would be the most annoying pop-up ever, because it would happen every day for every imperial power, for every single province.
Ah, yes. That makes a lot of sense. And I can see the forums screeching should God forbid, that suggestion be ever implemented in the game, and raise a lot of hell. Perhaps, even get the whole community to come over to my house to lynch me! :D :laughs:
P.S. Whose genius idea was to remove the laughing face?
 
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It is always best to start at the beginning.

Britain owned Afghanistan, the most perfect place on earth to grow opium poppies, and still its most valuable export today. The only reason to own Afghanistan is to own these fields and control distribution. This applies to the British, Russians and Americans.


Britain didn't own Afghanistan at the time of the Opium wars. Seriously, check wikipedia. The Opium sold to China was grown mostly in Bengal.
 
Britain didn't own Afghanistan at the time of the Opium wars. Seriously, check wikipedia. The Opium sold to China was grown mostly in Bengal.

While the opium to China may have come from elsewhere at that time, Britain was most certainly already meddling heavily in Afghanistan and bickering with Russia about it before the Opium Wars.

Which raises a trend I mention above and in the 1812 thread: foreign meddling and influence building was the typical precursor to further European encroachment. The Opium Wars were necessary for the Qing to survive without becoming a dependent of the west. In my opinion the only reason their horrendous loss didn't lead to outright conquest (before WWII) is the same reason the Ottoman Empire limped on - too many people squabbling to let any single one get the prize.

Losing these wars was horrible for the Chinese but doing nothing while the West built influence and control would have still meant becoming dominated eventually, had they not fought back.
 
The whole reason that the Qing was far more devoted to regulating the European rather than the Asian junk trade, was more than a general principle of Qing xenophobia, as some discontented British minority concluded, was that European sailors had not been on their best behavior two centuries before Macartney's arrival. The Portuguese, the first Europeans to make a concerted effort to penetrate mainland China under the Ming dynasty, had barged undiplomatically up to Canton - building a fort, buying Chinese children, trading at will. The author of the book that I referencing from the beginning of the forum, mentions one Captain John Weddell, who, in 1637, similarly forced his way up to Canton aspiring to 'do all the spoils ... [he] could unto the Chinois.' While deliberating on how to handle the Macartney embassy, the Qing court pondered accounts of the British absorption of India, and the Qianlong emperor observed that the British were ever-ready to take advantage if slack military discipline on the coast.
In addition, the Qing - as a conquering minority - uneasiness about security was a way of life, directed at every ethnic group within its sprawling frontiers, including the Han Chinese majority who helped administer the empire.
 
In addition, the Qing - as a conquering minority - uneasiness about security was a way of life, directed at every ethnic group within its sprawling frontiers, including the Han Chinese majority who helped administer the empire.

The conquering minority aspect should really be your focus as it's the root of pretty much the majority of Qing actions during the period. This insecurity for instance was the root of why the Qing went from attempting to modernize (via the Self-Strengthening Movements) to supporting Boxers who hated all things modern and foreign.
 
I should actually look into History in Three Keys: The Boxers as Event, Experience, and Myth, by Paul A. Cohen, to see if it has any references to this caveat as well.
 
Speaking of which, I am going have to ask volksmarschall if he has anything to contribute to this discussion.
 
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An Admittance
Well, knowing that volksmarschall happened to be at least well-versed in the historiographical studies of the nineteenth century, I hoped I could get something useful from him, unfortunately, he didn't know very much, except for this: "It is clear the UK needed to open up the opium market, and that the conflict was part of the nineteenth century’s imperial constitutional juridical struggle (wherein imperial states struggled over emerging market and territorial sovereignty). The war, thus, weakened Qing China’s claims to sovereignty and legitimacy.
Beyond that everything else would be speculative on my part so I haven’t much at all to say."
 
First of all, I can't understand why did the Chinese even let the Europeans to built those forts or trading posts on their coast... Just figure out: the Aztecs land in Kent, build their pyramid there and start to sacrifice humans on their bloody altairs... The Tudors would have been thrilled I suppose.
 
First of all, I can't understand why did the Chinese even let the Europeans to built those forts or trading posts on their coast... Just figure out: the Aztecs land in Kent, build their pyramid there and start to sacrifice humans on their bloody altairs... The Tudors would have been thrilled I suppose.
gnats don't bother the bull.
 
First of all, I can't understand why did the Chinese even let the Europeans to built those forts or trading posts on their coast... Just figure out: the Aztecs land in Kent, build their pyramid there and start to sacrifice humans on their bloody altairs... The Tudors would have been thrilled I suppose.

The Chinese didn't let them build the trading posts or forts.

The Portuguese in Macao had literally been there since the previous dynasty and been generally good neighbors. The British didn't have any forts in China until after they won the first Opium War. The trading posts, such as they were, were just a cluster of warehouses in Guangzhou, not a fortified position.
 
The Chinese didn't let them build the trading posts or forts.

The Portuguese in Macao had literally been there since the previous dynasty and been generally good neighbors. The British didn't have any forts in China until after they won the first Opium War. The trading posts, such as they were, were just a cluster of warehouses in Guangzhou, not a fortified position.

Yeah, prior to the Opium Wars the Chinese specifically excluded Europeans from trading or settling anywhere in China apart from specific districts in a very select number of ports.

The expansion of European foritfications, legations, missionary stations, and extra-territorial sovereignty (as well as the British takeover of important state economic functions, like the salt tax and maritime customs service) is a post-Opium Wars thing.
 
An Interesting Allegory That Almost Hits the Mark
I've done very little reading on the subject, but one brush with left a lasting impression on me. In a University tutorial a Chinese (presumably - she always brought everything back to China - even in a very Eurocentric history subject) mentioned the Opium Wars like it was a deliberate Western attempt to torpedo Chinese industrialisation.

Don't tell anyone but your friend is 100% right: Cixi was a MI6 plant the entire time. Did you also know that Karl Marx was on the payroll of the British government and specifically codified the theory of communism with the intent that Mao Zedong would incorrectly implement his theories a century years later and ruin China's economic prospects? Britain's only raison d'être for the past 200 years has been to make China (and Iran) miserable by the most creative means imaginable.

First of all, I can't understand why did the Chinese even let the Europeans to built those forts or trading posts on their coast... Just figure out: the Aztecs land in Kent, build their pyramid there and start to sacrifice humans on their bloody altairs... The Tudors would have been thrilled I suppose.

A more apt comparison would be a group of Maya landing in Kamchatka who begin trading with the locals. Russia is a big country where traders come and go all the time, and the Tsar a busy man -- why bother him about such minor trivialities? Eventually the local administrators allow the Maya to trade on the condition they pay all the applicable local rents and taxes to the Tsar and remain only in the village they landed on. The Mayan traders make a nice profit and over time more Mayans begin trading there, under the same rules. Some Mayans decide to stay in the village permanently, living in the properties they rent from the Russians, and over time the number of Mayan expatriates grow large enough that the local authorities decide to wall off their section of the village from the rest. The Mayan expatriates begin building their own sun temples and establishing their own government, which they call the Senate, but continue to pay rent and taxes to the Tsar and leave the local Russians alone. The Mayans living in Russia consider themselves loyal subjects of Palenque and even issue a proclamation in support of the deposed Ahau after the Aztecs annex their homeland, but for all intents and purposes they are still a community of Mayan residents living on Russian land subject to the Tsar.

This arrangement continues for about 300 years without much conflict until one day the Iroquois decide to trade with Russia too. They come bearing furs, which the Tsar does not need, and a dangerous addictive substance called tobacco, which the Tsar does not want his people exposed to, for understandable reasons. The Iroquois consider the Tsar's rebuke an insult and decide to trade tobacco illegally anyway, which eventually leads to war with the Russians. The Iroquois crush the Russian forces, open up the entire country to trade, and annex a small coastal village which eventually becomes the city of Vladivostok. Both Vladivostok and the Iroquois grow rich off the tobacco trade and their American neighbours begin to grow jealous, each making similar demands on the Russians. The Mayan expatriates grow jealous of Vladivostok's success too and petition their government to enforce similar trading and settlement rights as the Iroquois: Maya is a tiny power in comparison to the Iroquois and is no real military threat to the Russians, but as all the other American powers back the Mayan claim the Tsar has no choice but to give in. At last, the Mayan settlement is formally recognised as Mayan territory subject to rule from Palenque, not Moscow.
 
Don't tell anyone but your friend is 100% right: Cixi was a MI6 plant the entire time. Did you also know that Karl Marx was on the payroll of the British government and specifically codified the theory of communism with the intent that Mao Zedong would incorrectly implement his theories a century years later and ruin China's economic prospects? Britain's only raison d'être for the past 200 years has been to make China (and Iran) miserable by the most creative means imaginable.
Where did you even get this addled conspiracy theory from this time?:eek::confused:o_O:rolleyes: