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Chapter 41: Burtasy or Bust (9 October 881 – 19 April 882)
Chapter 41: Burtasy or Bust (9 October 881 – 19 April 882)

Previously, on Blut und Schlacht Almost a year of war waged against Mordva to conquer the county of Vladimir had seen two successful sieges and a desperate but eventually victorious field battle outside the gates of the county in question; with his levies hard hit in numbers and morale, Rurik nevertheless pushes east immediately to follow up his hard-fought win and beat Mordva’s Chief Varaka 'the Ill-Ruler' before he can again rally his position, or perhaps make peace with one of the other adversaries who harry him; back home, Rurik's Chancellor does his best to keep the edgy Finns from forming pacts against his liege – but Rurik’s conquering ways make that difficult.

ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

October 881

“Vassals,” muttered Rurik, just with earshot of his Secretary, Gumarich der Schreiber. “Can’t rule with them, can’t rule without them!”

Gumarich thought the statement rhetorical and perhaps not intended for his ears anyway. He decidesdto maintain a discrete silence and not acknowledge he had heard anything.

Gumarich assumed (and later recorded in his enciphered, private and confidential journal) that Rurik referred on the one hand to his loyal vassal allies – notably Chiefs Grimr of Smaleskja and Vsemil ‘the Cleansing Flame’ or Belo Ozero – who were instrumental in winning the recent Battle of Vladimir. But he also referred to the latest report from Chancellor Hrörekr, which gave details of how the rest of his vassals stood.

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It was no surprise the three most recent additions to the realm remained fractious and keen to reassert their independence. And their faction was quite strong: another reason Rurik was worried about his levy strength and regretted every combat loss he took. And why he remained so regretful to have lost the buffer of his Great Tribal Army: they were to have soaked up the casualties of conquests, allowing his royal levy to continue to build. But that horse had bolted long ago and was by then well over the horizon.

The better news in Hrörekr’s report was of the other Chiefs. Even old Svetozar Slovensky (now only the third most powerful vassal lord in the realm other than the king himself) had actually gained a mildly positive attitude to his ruler. Mainly, it seemed, because he no longer saw a realistic prospect of gaining a council seat given the relative power of the two most powerful newcomers. This meant, of the original Holmgarðian chiefdoms, all were now loyal (to some degree, at least) to Rurik. But it would take many years (or successions – forced or natural) before the three new vassals would willingly subordinate themselves to the new Garðarikian crown.

After pondering the report for a few minutes, Rurik turned to his faithful scribe.

“Gumarich, please take down this letter to the Chancellor. Use your cypher and get our most reliable courier and give him a small escort. I have a very delicate question to ask Hrörekr …”

Ch41 Q1: Independence Faction. So, at 48.2%, how worried (if at all) should I be about these troublemakers. Just a weather eye for now? What would be the tripwire for taking more aggressive preventative action against them? Better to leave them be for now and see if old wounds heal – or they present an opportunity for intervention to take them down (as individuals preferably, rather than as a group). For example, when the time is right (ie not when far away and in the middle of a foreign war) would it be useful to demand one of them cease their plotting and then crush them if they refuse?

“And look at this, will you, Gumarich! What a cheek – ‘for the sake of your health, My Liege’, he says …”

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It was a reply from the Chancellor to a message from Rurik to investigate the conduct of a Grand Hunt once peace against Mordva could be won. But it seemed the trusty Chancellor – whose long, faithful and authoritative service Rurik did indeed respect – was firmly of the view that despite his turning back to the pursuit of Hunting, Rurik’s health following the horrific events of Pisa (ie his castration and the resulting ‘lunacy’ – what we would now call PTSD) meant he could not conduct a Grand Hunt. Something he had wanted to do for many years, but for different reasons had never got around to.

The king sighed and bowed to the inevitable.

Comment: No Grand Hunt. It seems that although the resumption of hunting may be of benefit to Rurik’s health and military prowess, those two health penalties (looks like even one would be too much) preclude him being able to call the hunt – a pity. I had just wanted to do it for the interest and learning experience, plus whatever benefits it may have provided. Ah well, a note for others to be aware of if they weren’t already and something a may one day get around to with another character.

Rurik’s war against Varaka of Mordva was, as we have noted before in this chronicle, only one of four that the 'Ill-Ruler' was fighting. Of the others, the Cuman war to conquer Bashkira – at the opposite end of Mordva from Vladimir – was the largest and most well-advanced. Khan Sokhal ‘the Fat’ had by October 881 already over-run a large swathe of Varaka’s territory and was now approaching its western end – and Rurik’s advance. It appeared both would-be conquerors may now be in a race to take Mordvin counties to force Varaka to accede to their respective claims.

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A few weeks after the recent battle, the various elements that had all been congregated in Vladimir had started to move their separate ways. The Mordvin army had split apart into two groups. Both were headed north-east – and towards Mari – but in a panicked rout likely to last for weeks yet. Rurik’s levies (whose morale was only slowly rebuilding after their mauling in Vladimir) and his two vassal allies continued east and would arrive in Obran Osh on 26 October. From there, they would need to cross the Volga if they wished to continue the war in Mordva and force Varaka to yield. With the Cumans pursuing the same objective from the east.

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And, arriving in the already-occupied Obran Osh, Rurik’s army immediately began to ferry itself across the Volga and head for Cheremisa – which would take around three weeks.

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While this operation was in progress, another courier from the Chancellor found Rurik. He bore a report on who had left and joined the pact against the feared King of Garðaríki over the last month. Fortunately, more had left than joined. These Finns are flighty types, it seems, Rurik noted in his personal journal. But a couple of potential targets have naively left the pact – they may come to regret that decision once Varaka’s hash is settled!

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ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

November 881

And then, within a week of his joining, Mielus Savolainen of Savo - the one new pact entrant during October – was abandoned by his remaining Finnish ‘brothers’ in rapid succession! Hah! So much for Finnish solidarity, Rurik gloated in his journal.

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But all these diplomatic changes were peripheral: the movements that really concerned Rurik were those of the troops nearby – his own, the enemy’s, and others involved in wars against Mordva. Varaka himself had joined the troops now heading north-west: at last report, to Rurik’s own county of Chud, but still in rout. The other force (those of a couple of his vassals who had been with him at Vladimir) headed into the depths of Mari: Rurik hoped they would be waylaid by their other enemies while there. Rurik himself would arrive in Cheremisa on 15 November and hoped to add that county to the ledger to advance his bargaining power [current warscore of 62%, which mounted slowly while he held Vladimir, which I hadn’t realised was a thing before this campaign.]

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The pace of the river-crossing had picked up a little – Rurik now estimated he would get to Cheremisa on 13 November. But just two days before then, the Cumans – who had a far easier approach across the open steppe – arrived first and began besieging the Mordvin hold in Cheremisa. Damnation!

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So, on arrival, Rurik had a choice: he could either remain in Cheremisa and add his weight to the Cuman siege, or leave them to it and continue to Varaka’s home county of Mordva.

“Hrolfr, Sverker, what do advise?” asked an irritated Rurik. “Who gathers the spoils if we join the siege? The Cumans, because they were here first? Or will it be a tossed coin between the two of us, based on how many troops each side brings?”

Neither of the men knew the answer to this question for sure.

“Well,” said Hrolfr, “we slightly outnumber the Cumans, but either because they were here first, or through the vagaries of fortune, they may end up gaining the benefit of our efforts.”

“I agree, my King” ventured Sverker. I know it is further and will take longer, but taking Mordva itself should be even more persuasive to Varaka to give up his claim on Vladimir to simply be rid of us. And at least it should be a surer bet than taking our chances here with the Cumans hovering close by.”

“Very well,” announced Rurik. “To Mordva we march straight away. My concern though is that it takes us ever further from our secure base and the prize of Vladimir itself and I have no reserve available to send there: I want to keep all our forces together, to see these sieges over quickly and to ensure we’re not defeated in detail by splitting up. I’m just a little concerned that one of those two Mordvin forces will rally and end up making mischief while we are many days march away.”

After a short pause, Rurik nonetheless orders to move to Mordva. “Damn the Ill-Ruler! He will yield or see his entire kingdom occupied. Forward!”

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Ch41 Q2: Parallel Sieges. OK, my first time encountering this situation. Can anyone advise how these situations are resolved, when we share a siege with a co-belligerent who is neutral towards us? How the ownership (in particular) of the hold/county is determined?

ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

December 881

As bitter winter once again blanketed the land with snow, Rurik’s army laid siege to Varaka’s hold in Mordva. At least by now their morale was fully recovered, despite the cold conditions of the siege. Meanwhile, the King received a report that Varaka was in Chud and heading towards the territory of neutral Veps, where he would likely arrive in mid-December. He did not know whether he would then keep going or begin the long trek back, with vengeance on his mind. Would Varaka try to raid Garðarikian territory on the way through? This was thought unlikely, due to the small size of his remaining company. More likely he would head home. In any case, there was nothing much Rurik could do about it than try to end the war before Varaka could do any real damage.

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After some days examining the hold in Mordva, Sverker was directed to consult the siege master and try to predict how long the reduction would take.

“He estimates at the current rate, the defenders should be starved out and ready to surrender by maybe the last week of January. Perhaps the 25th; should be no later than the end of that month,” Sverker reported as the army leaders huddled around a small fire in an appropriated villager’s now very smoky hut. Without wishing to waste troops on an assault, and hoping disease or raiders did not start to waste his ranks, Rurik hunkered down and waited for nature to take its course with the defenders.

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Later that month, the latest despatch rider from Nygarðr bore a report advising Varaka’s company had turned around in Romny and was now en-route back to Chud. Their intentions there were as yet unknown.

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[Note: by 20 December, the Cuman warscore had reached 99%, while they continued to besiege Cheremisa. I’ll be referring back to this later in a question.]

ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

January 882

By early January, Varaka's intentions had become clearer: he did not tarry in Chud and seemed to be headed back the way he came. Maybe troops from Mari might intercept them?

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It would be a long, cold march for Varaka the Ill-Ruler and his depleted company. And what would be waiting for him: would he even make it back to his own lands?

While this was happening, Rurik noticed a detachment of Cuman troops had begun heading towards Mordva – did they hope to steal the siege from out of his hands? Curse them if they did!

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To add to Rurik’s irritation, it seemed High Chief Tuure of Karelia has changed his mind and rejoined the pact. Here we go again!

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Later that month, the Cumans succeeded in their siege of Cheremisa. But, inexplicably to Rurik and his officers, they still couldn’t seem to force Varaka to surrender. The Mordvin High Chief surely should have given up on that one eastern province a good while back.

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Ch41 Q3. Warscore Quandary. OK, does anyone know why the Cuman warscore should still be stuck on 99%, despite them having conquered yet another county and having held the county they are trying to annex for ages? Is there some anomaly or glitch here, or is there some arcane mechanism (AI or otherwise) at play that prevents a peace under certain circumstances?

The upshot of this is that Khan Sokal and the rest of his army is now also headed to Mordva. Those who departed earlier are due on 6 February, the rest on 10 February. Could Rurik finish the siege before they arrived? He hoped so, but it could be a close-run thing.

Fortunately, this time it was the Garðarikians who beat their Cuman competitors to the punch: Mordva fell on 28 January 882 (just three days after the siegemaster had predicted), with their entire garrison of 418 men surrendering, to be sold into slavery. Some small plunder was taken as the town was ransacked and then a small garrison left behind to hold it. This advanced Rurik’s interests, but not as much as he thought it would. And looking north, it was apparent the Cumans had received reinforcements: they now numbered over 3,600. Rurik continued even deeper into Mordva: perhaps taking Burtasy would be enough?

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ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

February-March 882

The turn of Burtasy – which had a sizable garrison - to be invested came on 18 February. By then, Varaka had been sighted again, emerging unscathed from Mari territory with over 500 warriors and heading for Garðaríki-occupied Obran Osh. Would they start besieging that, or keep moving? The Cumans were by then in Mordva, but they were wasting their time there.

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A courier was brought into Rurik’s tent, exhausted and dishevelled, in mid-March. He had ridden non-stop, changing horses along the way, with news from Vladimir. Varaka had arrived in Obran Osh on 4 March and passed straight through it: eleven days later he appeared outside the gates of Vladimir, to lay it under siege! Should he succeed, it would set back the war effort considerably. A decent garrison had by then been assembled to hold the town against it’s former owner, but it was still outnumbered and could not hold out indefinitely. The siege in Burtasy was progressing more than twice as quickly and had already been going for some time. By then, the bulk of the Cuman troops had also arrived in Burtasy. This seemed to help speed the siege – but who would gain the benefit?

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Could Rurik complete the siege, secure Burtasy (including from Cuman poachers) and then march back to Vladimir, after crossing the Volga, in time to break Varaka’s siege? Or would taking Burtasy be enough to bring Varaka to his senses and force his surrender? Rurik did not know the answer to any of these questions but decided neither to split his force nor break the siege of Burtasy. He would see it out and let the cards fall where they may.

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An artist’s impression of the well-defended hold at Burtasy. Rurik was still loath to lose troops needlessly by storming such fortifications. He would wait them out.

ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

April 882

By mid-April, the cumulative effect of Garðarikian occupation had pushed Mordva close to the point of surrender. The siege of Burtasy (the last Mordvin province not occupied by a foreign power) was reaching its final stages. But at that point, the other two long-lost Mordvin companies emerged from Mari – and were heading straight to Vladimir, to reinforce Varaka’s siege to try to wrest back much of the initiative in the war. Would the Ill-Ruler escape his fate and force Rurik into a laborious reconquest? Would those Cuman cuckoos rob the nest of Rurik's siege of Burtasy?

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“Victory, my King, Victory!” The cry rang out the very next day, when the defenders of Burtasy throw the gates open, finally starved into submission. Again, no losses were suffered among Rurik’s levies, about which he is very pleased. And this had been achieved while the gallant Garðarikian garrison of Vladimir still held out. Word came from High Chief Varaka that he was now truly vanquished: the enforcement of Rurik’s demands would be accepted if he proposed such. [The occupation of Vladimir contributed almost half of the total warscore: 12.16% for the town and another 36.66% for the cumulative time of occupying the war’s principal objective. Something I’ll definitely need to remember next time I conduct a similar single-county conquest war against a larger opponent, which I hadn’t done until now.]

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The gates of Burtasy were thrown open on 19 July 882. Other than a bit of looting, this time the town was shown mercy, the enemy garrison allowed to disperse to the countryside to begin preparing for the spring sowing. Such was Rurik’s pleasure at this bloodless victory – and its implications for the war – that he chose to live up to his name of ‘the Just’. He hoped the mercy shown to the common people in these parts might demonstrate the benefits of Garðarikian suzerainty over the ill-rule of the Mordvin lordlings.

And this is exactly what Rurik proposed. The resultant truce with Varaka would last for five years. Vladimir would, for now, be administered directly by Rurik himself as part of his personal demesne. But at some point in the not-too-distant future, he would need to examine his holdings and the succession, to do his best to set Helgi up to take the realm forward in as strong a position as possible. So long as he and his brothers could get along, the power of loyal vassal-allies under a tribal system had been shown in recent wars. It would have to do until a stronger system of rulership could be introduced.

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A few days later, High Chief Varaka of Mordva appeared before Rurik in Vladimir’s state room to abase himself and accept the terms offered. This romanticised version, painted centuries later, will have significantly overstated the splendour of the room. But the spirit is captured.

With peace came suggestions for a possible ambition for the realm: the choice and considerations for making it were the same as before. It would depend on whether there would be another conquest or a period of consolidation and raiding.

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The Vladimir tribal holding itself was under-developed and would now be burdened from post-war restiveness. Rurik wasn’t expecting much from it any time soon and it would not form part of the eventual hoped-for Volga border defences. It may well be moved to 'other management' in due course.

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At this time, as seen previously, the anti-Rurik pact contained only Savo and Karelia. Uusimaa and Pohjanmaa were both now vulnerable and therefore likely targets for conquest. Though taking either would no doubt boost threat perception of Rurik again – just when it was starting to come down. The price of conquest.

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Although a preferred target in earlier times, Uusimaa had been discounted for the last conquest because of its membership of what was then a far larger defensive pact. It had no such protection this time, a rich temple and two shipyards, a small levy and its chief had virtually no piety (for calling religious warriors) to his name. What was not to like about that? Very tempting indeed …

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Ch41 Q4: Uusimaa. This just looks too tempting to pass up, while such ripe low-hanging fruit lies for easy picking. A better target than Pohjanmaa and still helping the slow push towards Scandinavia. Is there anything not too like about hitting it next? Maybe (if no similarly juicy targets remain after that) then embarking on that period of peace and consolidation? And possibly granting it and Kexholm to Helgi before succession, to see if he can hang on to them afterwards?

… so tempting, that Rurik could hardly wait to get going. While the Mordva war had been going, another 473 levies had been trained back home and would join the bands when next mustered. Sufficient for taking down a small one-county, two-holding Finnish chiefdom. But, fortunately for Rurik (whose enthusiasm almost outweighed his memory) he paused before issuing the order.

Sverker had pointed out that if, as had been done in the war with Veps some years back, the levies were dismissed away from home Garðarikian territory, at least half would never make it back. This time such a disaster was narrowly averted. The troops would return as quickly as possible to the newly-acquired Vladimir. Rurik had to hope that the Uusimaans would not deduce his covetous aims for them and join the defensive pact before the levies could be dismissed and then re-mustered to attack them.

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ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

Questions

And so ended the successful, but time consuming and relatively expensive, war against Mordva for the conquest of Vladimir. How Varaka would fare against his other enemies and whether he would ever make peace with the Cumans (who now had more Mordvin territory they could siege down if they wished to) was Varaka’s problem, though Rurik was interested in seeing how those events transpired. The next Þing would be held in the capital of Nygarðr, where next steps would once again be decided – and Uusimaa stood on very thin ice indeed.

Ch41 Q1: Independence Faction. So, at 48.2%, how worried (if at all) should I be about these troublemakers. Just a weather eye for now? What would be the tripwire for taking more aggressive preventative action against them? Better to leave them be for now and see if old wounds heal – or they present an opportunity for intervention to take them down (as individuals preferably, rather than as a group). For example, when the time is right (ie not when far away and in the middle of a foreign war) would it be useful to demand one of them cease their plotting and then crush them if they refuse?

Ch41 Q2: Parallel Sieges. OK, my first time encountering this situation. Can anyone advise how these situations are resolved, when we share a siege with a co-belligerent who is neutral towards us? How the ownership (in particular) of the hold/county is determined?

Ch41 Q3. Warscore Quandary. OK, does anyone know why the Cuman warscore should still be stuck on 99%, despite them having conquered yet another county and having held the county they are trying to annex for ages? Is there some anomaly or glitch here, or is there some arcane mechanism (AI or otherwise) at play that prevents a win under certain circumstances?

Ch41 Q4: Uusimaa. This just looks too tempting to pass up, while such ripe low-hanging fruit lies for easy picking. A better target than Pohjanmaa and still helping the slow push towards Scandinavia. Is there anything not too like about hitting it next? Maybe (if no similarly juicy targets remain after that) then embarking on that period of peace and consolidation? And possibly granting it and Kexholm to Helgi before succession, to see if he can hang on to them afterwards?

ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ

This period was one of much activity for the King’s Secretary and Court Scribe – activity that proved invaluable to future historians piecing together the detailed history of the rise of the Rurikid dynasty. Gumarich’s official notes, journals and records became a key part of what became known as the Primary Chronicle of the period. What we now have access to as part of the recent discovery of the Rurikid scroll trove is a far more intimate, detailed and (relatively) unvarnished source of contemporary information to balance the later Rurikid propaganda of their official ‘histories’ (which were more akin to glorified genealogical tomes and hagiographies of the Rurikid rulers).

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Royal Secretary and Court Scribe Gumarich der Schreiber, hard at work in the spring of 882 CE.
 
Q1 - I wouldn't be too worried at 48%. When it gets to around 100% things are more likely to result. Meanwhile it is something to bear watching, as a sudden decrease in your levy could change the arithmetic quite rapidly.

Q2 - Cannot help here

Q3 - I think I would allow myselfl to be tempted.
 
Ch41 Q1: Independence Faction. So, at 48.2%, how worried (if at all) should I be about these troublemakers. Just a weather eye for now? What would be the tripwire for taking more aggressive preventative action against them? Better to leave them be for now and see if old wounds heal – or they present an opportunity for intervention to take them down (as individuals preferably, rather than as a group). For example, when the time is right (ie not when far away and in the middle of a foreign war) would it be useful to demand one of them cease their plotting and then crush them if they refuse?

The trigger threshold for firing a faction demand is somewhere in the 70-80% range IIRC, and usually the AI likes to wait until it has somewhere around 90% or more before it ever takes the choice of its own initiative. You should be fine for now.

Ch41 Q2: Parallel Sieges. OK, my first time encountering this situation. Can anyone advise how these situations are resolved, when we share a siege with a co-belligerent who is neutral towards us? How the ownership (in particular) of the hold/county is determined?

Issues with contested sieges are well-known and long-standing ;) I'm uncertain of the exact logic -- probably based on either which army got there first, or which army's commander is higher in title rank (I think P'dox have gone back and forth on this a few times trying to get things "just right") -- but if in doubt, you can check the shield next to the name in the siege box. That seems to be a fairly reliable indicator in my experience.

Ch41 Q3. Warscore Quandary. OK, does anyone know why the Cuman warscore should still be stuck on 99%, despite them having conquered yet another county and having held the county they are trying to annex for ages? Is there some anomaly or glitch here, or is there some arcane mechanism (AI or otherwise) at play that prevents a win under certain circumstances?

I don't remember which patch introduced this specifically, but this one goes back a ways.

Originally, thanks to "ticking warscore" for holding your war target (another feature you discovered during this chapter), it was possible for a small faction to launch a (relatively) quick "smash and grab" campaign against a much larger enemy who was already distracted in a war on another front, sit on their gains (plus maybe a small buffer of other holdings to inflate the warscore a little), and force a peace treaty (and the resulting truce) once the warscore reached 100% without ever fighting a single battle. Paradox later patched it so that so that it would stop ticking once you reached 99% unless both participants have fought a "major battle" (defined by the relative strength of the armies in the battle proportional to their levies) to get 100% and force a peace, essentially to give the defender a chance to wrap up anything else they may be involved in. It does eventually start ticking again, though (IIRC after about 2 years have passed since the war was declared), so if the defender doesn't do anything in that time then they're effectively conceding the war without a fight.

I suspect that's most likely what happened here -- the Cumans overran most of the Mordvin territory, but since their armies probably never actually engaged the warscore just stayed stuck at 99% during that "grace period."

Ch41 Q4: Uusimaa. This just looks too tempting to pass up, while such ripe low-hanging fruit lies for easy picking. A better target than Pohjanmaa and still helping the slow push towards Scandinavia. Is there anything not too like about hitting it next? Maybe (if no similarly juicy targets remain after that) then embarking on that period of peace and consolidation? And possibly granting it and Kexholm to Helgi before succession, to see if he can hang on to them afterwards?

One thing you didn't mention -- does Uusimaa have any allies they could call up? Otherwise, based on that info alone, my gut says: Go for it!
 
Really helpful, thanks very much @Specialist290. A short answer on the quick question at the end:
One thing you didn't mention -- does Uusimaa have any allies they could call up? Otherwise, based on that info alone, my gut says: Go for it!
No, no other allies (just a one-county realm with a temple vassal). And, unless they join again before I can get my levies back to Vladimir to dismiss them safely, they have left the anti-Rurik pact.
 
. But a couple of potential targets have naively left the pact – they may come to regret that decision once Varaka’s hash is settled!
sweet, stupid, weak and cute pohjanmaa :D

[current warscore of 62%
I would've thought 62% enough for one county demand, but seems otherwise

. But at that point, the other two long-lost Mordvin companies emerged from Mari – and were heading straight to Vladimir, to reinforce Varaka’s siege to try to wrest back much of the initiative in the war.
damn the foul rotten guts of this ill ruler and his ancestors desecrated graves

the enforcement of Rurik’s demands would be accepted if he proposed such
I'm surprised it was necessary to have a 100% warscore for our reasonable demands to be accepted. Maybe it's better to prioritize taking counties from smaller realms so that it's easier to hit 100%?

Ch41 Q1: Independence Faction. So, at 48.2%, how worried (if at all) should I be about these troublemakers. Just a weather eye for now? What would be the tripwire for taking more aggressive preventative action against them? Better to leave them be for now and see if old wounds heal – or they present an opportunity for intervention to take them down (as individuals preferably, rather than as a group). For example, when the time is right (ie not when far away and in the middle of a foreign war) would it be useful to demand one of them cease their plotting and then crush them if they refuse?
i would not worry. if they really want to die younger than they would otherwise, they can revolt and you still have enough power to see them off. When you run out of potential counties to conquer (i.e all neighbors either truced or in a coalition against you) you can try asking them to stop it and kill them if they don't comply just to see how it goes.

Ch41 Q2: Parallel Sieges. OK, my first time encountering this situation. Can anyone advise how these situations are resolved, when we share a siege with a co-belligerent who is neutral towards us? How the ownership (in particular) of the hold/county is determined?
in the earlier paradox games it was whoever had the bigger siege scoring general or whoever had a higher ranking general (i.e. Rurik as a king would outrank a duke, but for example hordes are empire level titles so a horse lord might have priority over him) and all else being equal whoever got there first, but I am not 100% sure how it is resolved. I always tried to avoid this situation so never experimented much in CK2.

Ch41 Q3. Warscore Quandary. OK, does anyone know why the Cuman warscore should still be stuck on 99%, despite them having conquered yet another county and having held the county they are trying to annex for ages? Is there some anomaly or glitch here, or is there some arcane mechanism (AI or otherwise) at play that prevents a win under certain circumstances?
i'm not sure but they might have not fought a battle against the defenders?

Ch41 Q4: Uusimaa. This just looks too tempting to pass up, while such ripe low-hanging fruit lies for easy picking. A better target than Pohjanmaa and still helping the slow push towards Scandinavia. Is there anything not too like about hitting it next? Maybe (if no similarly juicy targets remain after that) then embarking on that period of peace and consolidation? And possibly granting it and Kexholm to Helgi before succession, to see if he can hang on to them afterwards?
Pohjanmaa is in the same de jure duchy as Kexholm if you want to create it soon, but that seems the only small thing for their case. About succession, it's always complicated but as a rule of thumb if you have at least the same number of duchies as you have sons all the spare counties is supposed to go to the heir even if you didn't grant to him beforehand, but giving him does not carry any consequences that i can think of. One caveat might be those territories being outside of the king level titles you hold, but it should still work the same.
 
I'm surprised it was necessary to have a 100% warscore for our reasonable demands to be accepted
Hmm, maybe it wasn’t - I don’t think it occurred to me to check. Just assumed it needed 100% warscore to succeed! :oops: In previous wars, when I tried it I was rejected, but that was for a subjugation. If you sometimes don’t need 100% in such situations, then I might have learned another lesson!
 
Hmm, maybe it wasn’t - I don’t think it occurred to me to check. Just assumed it needed 100% warscore to succeed! :oops: In previous wars, when I tried it I was rejected, but that was for a subjugation. If you sometimes don’t need 100% in such situations, then I might have learned another lesson!
I don't want to sound too confident but my feeling is after vladimir and the battle, or maybe also the other province next to vladimir would've been enough. I always check after every positive development to see if they finally say uncle.
 
@Specialist290 answered the way I would have if I had been here first.
 
I've decided to start up a new ironman game (since someone finally deigned to give me my laptop back...) as a Nenets Suomenusko High Chief (the brown duchy bordering western Siberia) to have a look at how the game has changed in this area. Hopefully I can learn a few new things and at the very least have a chaotic game far away from CKII norms since Europe is completely in the hands of the AI (gulp).

When I crush Russia, I'll say hi.
 
I've decided to start up a new ironman game (since someone finally deigned to give me my laptop back...) as a Nenets Suomenusko High Chief (the brown duchy bordering western Siberia) to have a look at how the game has changed in this area. Hopefully I can learn a few new things and at the very least have a chaotic game far away from CKII norms since Europe is completely in the hands of the AI (gulp).

When I crush Russia, I'll say hi.
Sounds interesting. What year are you starting?
 
Sounds interesting. What year are you starting?

Earliest start date for Charlamagne. Currently done 15 years and am smearing a brown stain slowly downwards towards the Rus. Since almost everyone outside the de jure kingdom of Perm absolutly despises my religion and culture, i'll probably be going east much more than you will because there's no way i can expand into europe without a crusade getting sicced on me. So I'll be able to tell you how strong the steppe hordes have been made recently, hopefully before they interfere with your game.

My first guy was a good warrior high chief who scored some good wars and captured a Greek doctor. However, since the medic kept trying to convert me to his silly religion I set him on fire and then died of a cold (in Siberia) before the age of 40. :oops:
 
My first guy was a good warrior high chief who scored some good wars and captured a Greek doctor. However, since the medic kept trying to convert me to his silly religion I set him on fire and then died of a cold (in Siberia) before the age of 40. :oops:
Ahem ... the AI putting God’s curse on your character? Perhaps you should take it as a sign. ;)
 
Ahem ... the AI putting God’s curse on your character? Perhaps you should take it as a sign. ;)

I sort of brought it on myself by marrying a high priestess, cheating on her with her sister, legitimizing the inevitable bastard, calling him Loki and naming my actual son Odin and refusing to recognise the second bastard (Tyr, which meant both women hated me and each other's offspring). Then when I randomly died I was reminded by the game that I had named the court tutor the regent for Odin.

The court tutor being the wife's sister.

...Odin got shoved off a window ledge whilst cleaning bird poo off it.
 
I sort of brought it on myself by marrying a high priestess, cheating on her with her sister, legitimizing the inevitable bastard, calling him Loki and naming my actual son Odin and refusing to recognise the second bastard (Tyr, which meant both women hated me and each other's offspring). Then when I randomly died I was reminded by the game that I had named the court tutor the regent for Odin.

The court tutor being the wife's sister.

...Odin got shoved off a window ledge whilst cleaning bird poo off it.
:D:D
 
The Fifteenth Thing of Rurik’s Reign – April 882 (a summary of advice from Chapter 41)
The Fifteenth Thing of Rurik’s Reign – April 882 (a summary of advice from Chapter 41)

With the Mordvin War successfully concluded, Rurik faces the familiar choice between continued conquest (for de jure claims or shipyards for the future of the realm) and raiding. He is definitely tempted by the now available low-hanging fruit of Uusimaa but wishes to take counsel first before launching on another conquest. There are also some last lessons to absorb from the just-concluded conflict.

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General Comments

damn the foul rotten guts of this ill ruler and his ancestors desecrated graves
:D Well said and very in-character! Still, at least he tried. Rurik can respect that much even as he happily sees his enemies’ souls carried off in the claws of the Valkyries! And then their graves desecrated – if they are lucky enough to get one!
I would've thought 62% enough for one county demand, but seems otherwise
I'm surprised it was necessary to have a 100% warscore for our reasonable demands to be accepted. Maybe it's better to prioritize taking counties from smaller realms so that it's easier to hit 100%?
Hmm, maybe it wasn’t - I don’t think it occurred to me to check. Just assumed it needed 100% warscore to succeed! :oops: In previous wars, when I tried it I was rejected, but that was for a subjugation. If you sometimes don’t need 100% in such situations, then I might have learned another lesson!
I don't want to sound too confident but my feeling is after vladimir and the battle, or maybe also the other province next to vladimir would've been enough. I always check after every positive development to see if they finally say uncle.
I will definitely be checking this next time I’m in that kind of situation – many thanks once again @diskoerekto for highlighting it.​
@Specialist290 answered the way I would have if I had been here first.
But nevertheless thanks very much for ‘pinging’ (and ‘Þinging’) @Idhrendur – it’s always nice to know people are reading and to have corroboration on advice!

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Ch41 Q1: Independence Faction. So, at 48.2%, how worried (if at all) should I be about these troublemakers. Just a weather eye for now? What would be the tripwire for taking more aggressive preventative action against them? Better to leave them be for now and see if old wounds heal – or they present an opportunity for intervention to take them down (as individuals preferably, rather than as a group). For example, when the time is right (ie not when far away and in the middle of a foreign war) would it be useful to demand one of them cease their plotting and then crush them if they refuse?
I wouldn't be too worried at 48%. When it gets to around 100% things are more likely to result. Meanwhile it is something to bear watching, as a sudden decrease in your levy could change the arithmetic quite rapidly.
Good point – and reinforces my sensitivity about relative levy strength and trying to build it while still ‘doing stuff’. And hence my recurring regret at ‘blowing’ those tribal armies, which make great pre-cannon fodder!
The trigger threshold for firing a faction demand is somewhere in the 70-80% range IIRC, and usually the AI likes to wait until it has somewhere around 90% or more before it ever takes the choice of its own initiative. You should be fine for now.
Very useful specifics indeed. All newbies should take note – this one certainly will (if he remembers to check :oops: )!
i would not worry. if they really want to die younger than they would otherwise, they can revolt and you still have enough power to see them off. When you run out of potential counties to conquer (i.e all neighbors either truced or in a coalition against you) you can try asking them to stop it and kill them if they don't comply just to see how it goes.
That’s the general plan – my main concern is they do it when I’m fully committed elsewhere, so will have to always factor that into conquering or raiding expedition proposals.

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Ch41 Q2: Parallel Sieges. OK, my first time encountering this situation. Can anyone advise how these situations are resolved, when we share a siege with a co-belligerent who is neutral towards us? How the ownership (in particular) of the hold/county is determined?
Cannot help here
It seems a problematic point, but fortunately some wise Þing attendees have a few theories and pointers below.
Issues with contested sieges are well-known and long-standing ;) I'm uncertain of the exact logic -- probably based on either which army got there first, or which army's commander is higher in title rank (I think P'dox have gone back and forth on this a few times trying to get things "just right") -- but if in doubt, you can check the shield next to the name in the siege box. That seems to be a fairly reliable indicator in my experience.
OK, sounds like the best I can do.
in the earlier paradox games it was whoever had the bigger siege scoring general or whoever had a higher ranking general (i.e. Rurik as a king would outrank a duke, but for example hordes are empire level titles so a horse lord might have priority over him) and all else being equal whoever got there first, but I am not 100% sure how it is resolved. I always tried to avoid this situation so never experimented much in CK2.
We’ll see how @Specialist290 ’s pointer works out if it arises again (I imagine it will only be an infrequent occurrence).

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Ch41 Q3. Warscore Quandary. OK, does anyone know why the Cuman warscore should still be stuck on 99%, despite them having conquered yet another county and having held the county they are trying to annex for ages? Is there some anomaly or glitch here, or is there some arcane mechanism (AI or otherwise) at play that prevents a win under certain circumstances?
I don't remember which patch introduced this specifically, but this one goes back a ways.

Originally, thanks to "ticking warscore" for holding your war target (another feature you discovered during this chapter), it was possible for a small faction to launch a (relatively) quick "smash and grab" campaign against a much larger enemy who was already distracted in a war on another front, sit on their gains (plus maybe a small buffer of other holdings to inflate the warscore a little), and force a peace treaty (and the resulting truce) once the warscore reached 100% without ever fighting a single battle. Paradox later patched it so that so that it would stop ticking once you reached 99% unless both participants have fought a "major battle" (defined by the relative strength of the armies in the battle proportional to their levies) to get 100% and force a peace, essentially to give the defender a chance to wrap up anything else they may be involved in. It does eventually start ticking again, though (IIRC after about 2 years have passed since the war was declared), so if the defender doesn't do anything in that time then they're effectively conceding the war without a fight.

I suspect that's most likely what happened here -- the Cumans overran most of the Mordvin territory, but since their armies probably never actually engaged the warscore just stayed stuck at 99% during that "grace period."
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe now I’ve done fighting them, the Mordvins will muster again and be dutifully put to the sword attacking the Cumans so they can ‘end the war with honour’!
i'm not sure but they might have not fought a battle against the defenders?
This seems to be the consensus: of course, I can’t tell from the limited info I have available on their warscore progress, but it does sound like the logical explanation.

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Ch41 Q4: Uusimaa. This just looks too tempting to pass up, while such ripe low-hanging fruit lies for easy picking. A better target than Pohjanmaa and still helping the slow push towards Scandinavia. Is there anything not too like about hitting it next? Maybe (if no similarly juicy targets remain after that) then embarking on that period of peace and consolidation? And possibly granting it and Kexholm to Helgi before succession, to see if he can hang on to them afterwards?
I think I would allow myself to be tempted.
Rurik certainly sees a juicy piece of fruit within arm’s reach there …
One thing you didn't mention -- does Uusimaa have any allies they could call up? Otherwise, based on that info alone, my gut says: Go for it!
Really helpful, thanks very much @Specialist290. A short answer on the quick question at the end: No, no other allies (just a one-county realm with a temple vassal). And, unless they join again before I can get my levies back to Vladimir to dismiss them safely, they have left the anti-Rurik pact.
So yes, that would reinforce your encouragement for Rurik to go with his covetous instincts!​
Pohjanmaa is in the same de jure duchy as Kexholm if you want to create it soon, but that seems the only small thing for their case. About succession, it's always complicated but as a rule of thumb if you have at least the same number of duchies as you have sons all the spare counties is supposed to go to the heir even if you didn't grant to him beforehand, but giving him does not carry any consequences that i can think of. One caveat might be those territories being outside of the king level titles you hold, but it should still work the same.
Hopefully these shipbuilding plans would fall foul of succession issues. And if things got difficult enough, a future king may have to contemplate some drastic action to secure the shipyards from an inconvenient vassal – even if it is a half-brother!

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So, a shorter than usual Þing this time, but many thanks to those who responded. I hope it is due to the ‘northern summer slowdown’ and not the story getting boring! Any, my great appreciation for the continuing support of all my readers and commenters: I’ve had some RL things to get done in the last few weeks, plus writing up WW2 Turkey and then a few chapters from Ancient Rome and the Pyrrhic War. But back now to the Norsemen in Russia. I’ll now play the next session and write up over the next few days.
 
I'd spread the ship yards out. Every county and duchy needs at least one. You never know who Is going to inherit and where sometimes, especially if a few people die in rapid succession.

As a brief update for Pagan tribal gaming, it's easier than I remember in some areas whilst new dlc has made parts v. Difficult. The absolutely hardest thing seems to be keeping family members alive and breeding (which is weird because it's usually the opposite problems). For the third time I am down to my last male family memer and he's the reigning PC. So...I guess look out for that. And consider yourself fortunate that you have had a good run with Rurik. It doesn't look like chiefs live very long. Even with the finest of burnt cinders as their former doctors.

War wise, the game is stupid easy. You start off with no men and no vassals, and any vassals you do get aren't obligated to send you troops. Only thing is, no one around you for several kingdoms worth of land has any men either, so if you manage to get a small advantage it quickly snowballs. I was also fortunate that not only did the Frankish empire collapse but no one in Europe has arisen to take its place. Out east is a different story. China has gone berserk and the Western protectorate has taken over the entire Steppes east of my border with it (kingdom of Perm). I don't know wether you have that dlc but clearly China is a bigger threat than the Mongolia invasions until Paradox tones them down.

What I've learnt that I can apply to your playthrough is:
1) Keep your family members alive because they drop like flies whenever fighting, war or sickness comes through the land. And they have a habit of dropping dead suddenly too.
2) Warfare is easier in Europe. Stay away from the Steppes.
3) build tall. It's even more effective than in feudal play. It's also the only way to get to feudal play.
4) pick a culture and settle it everywhere you can. Unbelievablely powerful decision tribes can use non-stop.
 
Thanks for those hints and observations @TheButterflyComposer: the only DLC I now don’t have is that last one - Jade Dragon. Waiting for it to bed down and because for this learning game there will be both Aztecs and Mongols and I have Ironman set, that may be enough excitement for a rank beginner!

Have been madly converting in part for narrative/experimental purposes (culture & religion): religion has come along, but no progress on culture yet. Did a lot of building to start with, but now need more money and prestige to keep going (yet another reason I hated accidentally over-recruiting the tribal armies and then blowing them).

All: Next session is played and in process of editing screenies and writing up. Some interesting and new (for me) events and questions arising.
 
Still doing well. Stopped getting notification for some reason and been busy, but caught up now. Looks like your advisors are keeping you on the right track!
 
Still doing well. Stopped getting notification for some reason and been busy, but caught up now. Looks like your advisors are keeping you on the right track!

Protip: If you have a thread you want to follow regularly, use the "Watch Thread" option in the top right corner, then check your Watched Threads list periodically. Saves you from worrying about missed notifications :)
 
Have been madly converting in part for narrative/experimental purposes (culture & religion): religion has come along, but no progress on culture yet. Did a lot of building to start with, but now need more money and prestige to keep going (yet another reason I hated accidentally over-recruiting the tribal armies and then blowing them).

I used the tribal army sparingly. Prestige for tribes is much more usefully spent on building stuff. I used the tribal army three times so far. Once to get me my start on the local stage, and then twice to bail me out when I vastly underestimated Eastern expansion (for your game, try to make it to the edge of the de Jure kingdom of Perm and then stop going east. You have a nice set of moutnin ranges bottling up your enemies into going across one huge county). For your game you have more time to get ready for the inevitable eastern horde, because china is off somewhere else bullying Japan and Korea instead of India. However, the mongols are certainly coming and will definitely go after you.

Rus is a powerful kingdom once you have it and the surrounding area to the north, enough that you could feasibly take on Hungary if you built smartly enough. Scandinavia on the other hand is even worse than it used to be. Throw out everything I said earlier here and in Albion, this peninsula is nasty to fight in. On earlier starts, such as the one you're playing, there is nothing in the North at all and very little in the south. It's an incredibly poor bit of turf economically and militarily, and destined pretty much for two things. One, to encourage everyone who starts there to raid and expand outwards away from it like mad, and two, to serve as an impenetrable fortress for an already established empire. It's like having a mini 19th c. Russia for you right enemies to try and march through.

The best bit is that Denmark, which attaches the whole thing to the mainland, is not only easy to defend too but an incredible personal realm to own. Eight counties with loads of settlement slots that make up two duchies and a kingdom all to itself. Wonderful for a PC. Building a Danish empire from Russia would be a bit of a shaggy dog story but entertaining all the same.