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That seems very ascetically Spartan of you.
Some countries need only one flavor of infantry division because of the limitations of equipment and/or the nature of the potential battlefields being fairly suitable to one type.
There is also lacking XP for division redesigns if not using a mod that cuts the redesign cost (the whole land xp concept is clever but seriously distorts behavior and can prevent historical development paths.
There are some tricks that can be employed to make the most out of your equipments such as having several infantry templates, one with just infantry, another with infantry and anti tank and so on. If you need AT weapons somewhere you can just switch between the basic infantry template into the AT infantry template.
However it do have some drawbacks such as losing experience and org, but not all nations have the industry to keep a well armed army and must make the best use of their equipment. You can also have a few specific infantry AT divisions and such but in that case you need to move them around where they are needed.
Experience can be earned by lend leasing or training and it is probably worth it because bad templates when stuff gets serious can be really bad.
Pretty much all nations should have a few armored divisions because infantry alone is really terrible at offensive operations.
However it do have some drawbacks such as losing experience and org, but not all nations have the industry to keep a well armed army and must make the best use of their equipment. You can also have a few specific infantry AT divisions and such but in that case you need to move them around where they are needed.
Experience can be earned by lend leasing or training and it is probably worth it because bad templates when stuff gets serious can be really bad.
Pretty much all nations should have a few armored divisions because infantry alone is really terrible at offensive operations.
ARMOR DIVISIONS and DIVISIONS with ARMOR:
Normal armor divisions combine light or (later on) medium tank battalionss, motorized infantry battallions, and self-propelled artillery in a variety of purpose built combinations to achieve a planned balance between offensive power, defensive power, ability to deflect and absorb damage, speed, and tactical flexibility. Armor divisions heavily optimized for assault are often vulnerable to counterattacks.
They should have an Engineeer company for combat (and Recon company to help a good general tactical options to choose. Divisions may need an anti-air company if lacking Self Propelled AntiAircraft artillery,and sometimes other support companies such as maintenance, hospital, and logistics for non-combat functions.
Norrmal armor divisions are expected to be able to pierce their opponents based on their contribution t o the average piercing of the elements of the division. An anti-tank company or a Tank Destroyer battalion with high piercing can boost the division's normal piercing if desired.
Normal armor divisions also don't operate alone. There is great potential synergy in several armor divisions working in tactical coordination (along with the supporting infantry) on the offensive (e.g., for pincers that create pockets). On the defense, a single armor division can be a valuable mobile reserve and fire brigade for an army or military region.
Full-size armor divisions are 40 wide or more, but those half that width or so work the same way but with much less punch.
At the beginning of the game you will see many countries with small armored forces in units of a few armored battalions or the Italian sstandard Divisione Celere of one tank bn and two motorized (or cavalry) bns. These are cheap and will serve in the role of armor divisions where the enemy troops have nothing that counters it effectively. This is a mobile unit effective to outmaneuver and and seek breakthroughs against slower and weaker opposing that are not too numerous. Researching light tanks unlocks the firone or more armored templates for a country.
The principle of armored battalions enabling breakthroughs and shielding softer battalions from maximum damage in combat applies in other ways. Historically, the US developed armored infantry infantry divisions with an added integral battalion of armor with the intention of providiing them with some combined arms punch, flexibility and morale support. Infantry like having armor around to lead the push.
Armored infantry is often seen in game as parto creating combined arms synergy. It is often called "space marines," meaning in its original form a large division of marines given a little armor and a lot of artillery. This uses its massive soft attack to overcome enemy Defense while its armor cuts down losses inflicted by the defender. This bashes its way ashore through weak enemy that lacks airpower and antitank or antiaircraft weapons that can unleash full damage on the attacker.
A division's piercing is equal to 40% of the highest piercing of any element of the division plus plus 60% of the weighted-average piercing of all other elements of the division. Elements are battalions or support companies.
I believe this is only tested at the start of a battle and not readjusted every hour. I am not 100% certain on this last bit.
Notes: Support companies have no armor and are all unarmored, so they all have a negative effect on the average. AT and AA do have piercing.
NOTE: Regarding the calculations, Dalwin observed that "the contribution in both armor and piercing for any given battalion is modified by the percentage of its equipment that it currently holds. So as a unit loses a few tanks, its stats for both will diminish. This can change whether it pierces or is pierced in a given battle." From comments in the same prior thread, it appears that this takes effect during the course of a battle but the modifier may not be displayed. See https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/armor-and-piercing-formulas.998074/
Normal armor divisions combine light or (later on) medium tank battalionss, motorized infantry battallions, and self-propelled artillery in a variety of purpose built combinations to achieve a planned balance between offensive power, defensive power, ability to deflect and absorb damage, speed, and tactical flexibility. Armor divisions heavily optimized for assault are often vulnerable to counterattacks.
They should have an Engineeer company for combat (and Recon company to help a good general tactical options to choose. Divisions may need an anti-air company if lacking Self Propelled AntiAircraft artillery,and sometimes other support companies such as maintenance, hospital, and logistics for non-combat functions.
Norrmal armor divisions are expected to be able to pierce their opponents based on their contribution t o the average piercing of the elements of the division. An anti-tank company or a Tank Destroyer battalion with high piercing can boost the division's normal piercing if desired.
Normal armor divisions also don't operate alone. There is great potential synergy in several armor divisions working in tactical coordination (along with the supporting infantry) on the offensive (e.g., for pincers that create pockets). On the defense, a single armor division can be a valuable mobile reserve and fire brigade for an army or military region.
Full-size armor divisions are 40 wide or more, but those half that width or so work the same way but with much less punch.
At the beginning of the game you will see many countries with small armored forces in units of a few armored battalions or the Italian sstandard Divisione Celere of one tank bn and two motorized (or cavalry) bns. These are cheap and will serve in the role of armor divisions where the enemy troops have nothing that counters it effectively. This is a mobile unit effective to outmaneuver and and seek breakthroughs against slower and weaker opposing that are not too numerous. Researching light tanks unlocks the firone or more armored templates for a country.
The principle of armored battalions enabling breakthroughs and shielding softer battalions from maximum damage in combat applies in other ways. Historically, the US developed armored infantry infantry divisions with an added integral battalion of armor with the intention of providiing them with some combined arms punch, flexibility and morale support. Infantry like having armor around to lead the push.
Armored infantry is often seen in game as parto creating combined arms synergy. It is often called "space marines," meaning in its original form a large division of marines given a little armor and a lot of artillery. This uses its massive soft attack to overcome enemy Defense while its armor cuts down losses inflicted by the defender. This bashes its way ashore through weak enemy that lacks airpower and antitank or antiaircraft weapons that can unleash full damage on the attacker.
A division's piercing is equal to 40% of the highest piercing of any element of the division plus plus 60% of the weighted-average piercing of all other elements of the division. Elements are battalions or support companies.
- Piercing: 40% * (highest piercing of a battalion or support company) + 60% * (average piercing for all battalions and companies) = piercing of the division
I believe this is only tested at the start of a battle and not readjusted every hour. I am not 100% certain on this last bit.
Notes: Support companies have no armor and are all unarmored, so they all have a negative effect on the average. AT and AA do have piercing.
NOTE: Regarding the calculations, Dalwin observed that "the contribution in both armor and piercing for any given battalion is modified by the percentage of its equipment that it currently holds. So as a unit loses a few tanks, its stats for both will diminish. This can change whether it pierces or is pierced in a given battle." From comments in the same prior thread, it appears that this takes effect during the course of a battle but the modifier may not be displayed. See https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/armor-and-piercing-formulas.998074/
By request, reopening thread until the new expansion is released. A new thread will be appropriate to take into account the changes the expansion may impose.
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Lots of material to sift through, and as always, lots of questions about what is still valid as of latest build, how much of what is stated is inaccurate, etc. . . .
But key question to start with for me is: WIDTH.
First let me say: awesome to see Pdox game design FINALLY incorporating geometry in this way!
Second, my understandings as of present: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Combat_width
A. Typical battle site is 80 wide
B. Combat battalions have standardized width which are reduced by the Soviet Land Doctrine "Mass Slaughter"
Okay, so . . . as far as I can tell, there is no "stacking" limit (or only a very generous/realistic one . . . given these "hexes" or "provinces" or whatever they are seem to be in the ~20 to 50km across ballpark, that means there is ample room for lots of troops and gear . . .). With that in mind, an ideal attacking stack will have anywhere from 2 Div to 24 Div (one army). As long as the Div are 40 wide, then you are optimized. Attack with _TWO_ 40-wide Divs from at least one hex, and with one 40 wide div from any other vectors of attack. I had noticed the computer leaving some of my Divs standing around on cigarette break so I'm guessing that the algorithms that run the "battle plans" functionalities seem to have a better understanding of these mechanics than I did at the outset! BUT CAN YOU LEARN THIS!? Mr. Computer algorithm!?
The risk/downside of this is: if you go on the defense with that many divs in one hex, then they are ALL going to start suffering lost org, etc.??
So for DEFENSE . . . I see people saying "10 wide" is better but how is that the case?
But key question to start with for me is: WIDTH.
First let me say: awesome to see Pdox game design FINALLY incorporating geometry in this way!
Second, my understandings as of present: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Combat_width
A. Typical battle site is 80 wide
B. Combat battalions have standardized width which are reduced by the Soviet Land Doctrine "Mass Slaughter"
C. But now this throws me for a loop
Reserves[edit]
This section may contain outdated information that is inaccurate for the current version of the game. The last version it was verified as up to date for was 1.4.
Divisions that do not fit the combat width or that join the combat after it has already started end up in reserves. These units do not contribute to the battle in any way, do not regain organization or increase their entrenchment or preparation bonuses.
Units in reserve have a chance to join combat every hour as long as there is combat width available. The base chance to join is only 2% per hour (so mean time to join is about 35 hours), and it is greatly affected by having Radio researched, division speed, doctrine tech, or by having a signal company attached to the division.
If the frontline divisions all retreat while there are still reserves available, the reserves are forced to retreat as well. Same for attacker, the attack stops if all frontline divisions run out of org even if there are fresh reserves.
As a defender, try providing reserves in a timely manner so they have time to reinforce the frontline and are not forced to retreat and potentially be overrun. If fighting at full width with fresh reserves, consider manually retreating your defending units that are very low on org 1 at a time 1 province away from the front so they can recover and reserves can fill in. Otherwise you run a risk that all frontline troops get low on org and run at the same time, and reserves do not have time to reinforce.
If you are on the attacking side, consider not attacking by more units that fit into combat width so the rest can recover org and gain the preparation bonus. When you do have reserves and width available (say they caught up, or you run out of org) and all defender units are already fighting, instead of waiting for reinforcement it can be useful to stop the combat and attack again so all your units join immediately.
Okay, so . . . as far as I can tell, there is no "stacking" limit (or only a very generous/realistic one . . . given these "hexes" or "provinces" or whatever they are seem to be in the ~20 to 50km across ballpark, that means there is ample room for lots of troops and gear . . .). With that in mind, an ideal attacking stack will have anywhere from 2 Div to 24 Div (one army). As long as the Div are 40 wide, then you are optimized. Attack with _TWO_ 40-wide Divs from at least one hex, and with one 40 wide div from any other vectors of attack. I had noticed the computer leaving some of my Divs standing around on cigarette break so I'm guessing that the algorithms that run the "battle plans" functionalities seem to have a better understanding of these mechanics than I did at the outset!
BUT CAN YOU LEARN THIS!? Mr. Computer algorithm!?
The risk/downside of this is: if you go on the defense with that many divs in one hex, then they are ALL going to start suffering lost org, etc.??
So for DEFENSE . . . I see people saying "10 wide" is better but how is that the case?
you need to play with mechanized infantry ! i did not mean motorized. i mean full mechanized infantry this is nice. full armor, fast and good for point attacks.
this is nice. full armor, fast and good for point attacks.
you need to play with mechanized infantry ! i did not mean motorized. i mean full mechanized infantry
The new expansion lowered their cost too!
Sadly you don't get too much out of pure mechanized.
Reason:
Very high defense which is useless, because its very difficult now to get over 1000 soft/hard attack therefore the base 1200 defense you get from mechanized is kind of useless.
Hardness is nice against infantry and if infantry can't pierce it it gets the same bonuses as tanks.
Soft attack on it is garbage.
Piercing and hard attack is also very low.
breakthrough is low
However, if used with tank divisions, SPGs, TDs, SPAA, ect, along with full mobile warfare and good infantry equipment techs, it can be very good on the defensive.
I would use Mech 1 with the following templates as mech 1 is the cheapest, you will have the production efficiency from researching it earliest, and the bonuses you get from Mech 2 and Mech 3 are not really worth the cost
1. more defense (pointless)
2. more hardness (decent but not necessary)
3. more speed (not necessary when your using heavy tanks and medium tanks)
4. other smaller bonuses that arn't necessary
However I would use mech 2 and 3 in dedicated armour divisions for the extra hardness, armour, defense (tanks do need more defense), and piercing.
Some examples with full mobile warfare doctrine, infantry equipment II, medium IIs, Mechanized 1, Heavy IIs, (you can put whatever support companies you want you got all the org in the world)
Reason:
Very high defense which is useless, because its very difficult now to get over 1000 soft/hard attack therefore the base 1200 defense you get from mechanized is kind of useless.
Hardness is nice against infantry and if infantry can't pierce it it gets the same bonuses as tanks.
Soft attack on it is garbage.
Piercing and hard attack is also very low.
breakthrough is low
However, if used with tank divisions, SPGs, TDs, SPAA, ect, along with full mobile warfare and good infantry equipment techs, it can be very good on the defensive.
I would use Mech 1 with the following templates as mech 1 is the cheapest, you will have the production efficiency from researching it earliest, and the bonuses you get from Mech 2 and Mech 3 are not really worth the cost
1. more defense (pointless)
2. more hardness (decent but not necessary)
3. more speed (not necessary when your using heavy tanks and medium tanks)
4. other smaller bonuses that arn't necessary
However I would use mech 2 and 3 in dedicated armour divisions for the extra hardness, armour, defense (tanks do need more defense), and piercing.
Some examples with full mobile warfare doctrine, infantry equipment II, medium IIs, Mechanized 1, Heavy IIs, (you can put whatever support companies you want you got all the org in the world)
Mech 2 and 3 are worth it to keep up with the increasing speed of medium tank 2 and 3 for use together in a template. The slightly better defensive stats are just a bonus. The slightly better speed of 2 may not seem that impressive but by the time you get to 3 you are moving at light tank unit speeds. That helps a bit for exploiting gaps and executing encirclements.
I know this is old but just wanted to say a massive thank you! Every time I come back to HOI I need a refresher and your example templates are great. Thank you so much for the guide!
Sorry for Necro posting, but i can't find any reliable source of Division composition in latest Patch. All i read is about "Arty is nerfed", "7\2"(Inf\Art) is not valid anymore, "pure INF with 20\40 width", etc. All the discussion evolve either about game mechanics detail or meta for multiplayer. But i want to know that division you can you use in SP with "a bit of RP", so you not using "meta-templates" only, but also not gimping yourself too much by trying to use "semi-realistic" template that just don't work.
Thanks, i'll watch it after work. But, just to clarify, this guide is about "general template design philosophy" and it apply to any patch no matter actual stats of Battalions\attachments? So you learn how to get preferable stats for any type of Divisions?
Well, I am glad that it was of help.
It's also rather fun to look back and see how (and how I thought) certain things in worked in 2016.
7/2 is very much alive and one of the most commonly used infantry divisions. Another common is basic full 20 width infantry: not very good at attacking, but holds the line very well while your tanks do the advance.
Tank division meta is basically about 40 width M-ARM/MOT/SP-ART combinations.
So 7/2 still works for offence. Great. I was under impression(from different posts here and there) that Art Battalions were nerfed into the ground.
It “works”, but is not remotely worth the investment in most cases. Put the factories on tanks and planes instead and you get a better payoff. That’s my unscientific, anecdotal experience.
Well, Tanks probably won't work too well for Japan with all those jungles, islands and stuff. But, yeah, i should have specified that from the start.