Stealthy and onward the time - Horten Brothers Aircraft

[Jopa79]

Almost everyone who has an interest in history has heard about the Secret Weapons, or the Wunderwaffe of Germany, the decisive elements for warfare which would turn the odds to favor the nation during its downfall nearing the end of World War II. The V-rockets caused fear among the English civilians destroying whole residental neighborhoods and the Me-262 aircraft was superb versus the Allied aircraft models. These threats were real and the Allied Forces had to deal with them on the road for the final victory. The Horten Brothers(Walter and Reimar picture above) were German pilots and aircraft designers with only a little of experience and formal training in aeronautical field. Still they succeeded in designing something absolutely revolutionary in this area. The jet-powered Horten-Ho 229 was radically invisible, a stealth fighter/bomber, a flying wing. If this aircraft model have had a mass production, it would have affected at least in the fight of the air superiority. Any existing German aircraft, even the Me-262 wasn't comparable of its capabilities vs. the Horten-Ho 229, not to mention the Allied aircraft models. The fight in the airspace would have looked like it was in 1939 when the Polish cavalry desperately fought against German armoured vehicles.

Amerikabomber

Amerikabomber was a German project which was left unfinished during the interwar years and never completed in the World War II. The plan was to obtain a long-range strategic bomber for the Luftwaffe capable of striking in the United States from Germany and fly back home, c.a. 11 600km. Various proposals were made, including the Amerika bomber to deliver German nuclear weapons. The Amerikabomber -project was launched already in 1938, but was abandoned as too expensive and advanced. It was not earlier than in 1942, the 'Amerikabomber' was re-introduced. 33-page plan was completed and submitted to the Reichsmarschall, Herman Göring. Now with more advanced technology, the German Luftwaffe mentioned in the plan using the Azores as a transit airfield, from there the Luftwaffe would be capable of to operate against the US East Coast.

The Horten H.XVII(picture above) was a Horten Brothers variant aircraft model. This intercontinental fighter/bomber was powered by six turbojets and had stealth charachteristics. This model would have carried sufficient fuel for transatlantic flights and was well-fitting for the 'Amerikabomber' -role. Unlike the Horten-Ho 229, the Horten 'Amerikabomber' was unbuilt.

Surviving aircraft

Very soon after the war ended in Europe, an American patrol was scouting in German countryside and from a barn they found two complete models of Horten-Ho 229 aircrafts. With a great urgency these models were dismantled, loaded in boxes or crates and transported to the US for closer observations.

In the recent years the researchers and engineers have completed a reproduction model which is made like the original prototype parts of the Horten-Ho 229. There has also been a lot of testing. The results tell us that the drag, or the air resistance capabilities were absolutely perfect, the designing was advanced and reflects only a little of radar waves. The aircraft was originally coated with a mixture of saw -and coaldust making the model perform even better with its stealth capabilities. Although this aircraft wasn't completely invisible it could hide the radar enough while its design and silhouette could absorb the electromagnetic radiation. With this and having an advantage by its speed the Horten-Ho 229 would have been capable of to strike cities like London before detected or intercepted.

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 7.47 m (24 ft 6 in)
• Wingspan: 16.76 m (55 ft 0 in)
• Height: 2.81 m (9 ft 2 in)
• Wing area: 50.20 m² (540.35 ft²)
• Empty weight: 4,600 kg (10,141 lb)
• Loaded weight: 6,912 kg (15,238 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 8,100 kg (17,857 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Junkers Jumo 004B turbojet, 8.7 kN (1,956 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 977 km/h (estimated) (607 mph) at 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m (estimated) (52,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 22 m/s (estimated) (4,330 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 137.7 kg/m² (28.2 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.26

Armament

• Guns: 2 × 30 mm MK 108 cannon
• Rockets: R4M rockets

Bombs: 2 × 500 kilograms (1,100 lb) bombs.

I end up with the pictures above, the left one is American B-2 Spirit, a long-range strategic bomber(first flight in 1989), the right one is the blueprints of German Horten-Ho 229(first flight in 1944). What do you think?

 

[Kovax]

Note that the US built several Flying Wing bombers (one propeller-driven - YB-35, and one jet-powered - B-49) during the post-war years. The jet version appears in the classic movie "The War of the Worlds". Shortly after, Northrop ran into financial difficulties, flying wing designs were shelved, several existing publications went missing, and it looks like the US government was trying to suppress whatever information was already out there. A few decades later, the Stealth bomber and fighter appeared (but not on radar).

Also note that the German prototypes were close to, but not exactly "complete", so the jet-powered version was never flight-tested. A glider version was flown, and a propeller-driven prototype may have been built and flown at some point. The jet engines were the same design as on the ME-262. As a fighter, the Ho-229 (or Go-229 if production had been done through Gotha as planned) would have suffered from the same problems as the ME-262: slow initial acceleration requiring a long runway, and high rates of fuel usage limiting their time in the air. They were vulnerable while taking off or landing to attacks by Allied aircraft which were capable of hanging around and waiting for them, and on top of that, Germany was critically short on experienced pilots, with no fuel to spare for training replacements, so any aircraft which required a highly capable pilot to fly it wasn't a "war winner" in Germany's situation.

An "Amerikabomber" was also not likely to have been completed for several more years, as Germany's technology was still not capable of a "practical" design with a useable payload at that extreme range by the end of WWII. Fly there and back, maybe; fly there, do something USEFUL, and fly back, no way. Of course, they already had their Dirigible designs, which were quite capable of such a round trip long before the war, although pathetically vulnerable even by that time. Their nuclear weapon program had one insurmountable obstacle: the fusion bomb needed a fission bomb to create the temperatures and pressures necessary for fusion, and by war's end Germany was nowhere near developing a fission bomb like the Americans were already testing. Dropping a 500kg conventional HE bomb or two on the US wasn't likely to change the course of the war. Berlin being nuked was a far more likely scenario.

 

[Jopa79]

Note that the US built several Flying Wing bombers (one propeller-driven - YB-35, and one jet-powered - B-49) during the post-war years. The jet version appears in the classic movie "The War of the Worlds". Shortly after, Northrop ran into financial difficulties, flying wing designs were shelved, several existing publications went missing, and it looks like the US government was trying to suppress whatever information was already out there. A few decades later, the Stealth bomber and fighter appeared (but not on radar).

Not sure, what do you mean by this. Like you said, the Americans had their first flying wings only after the WW2. And undoubtedly they adopted much from the German design. The Americans were far behind the Germans what comes to the jet engine technology and designing stealth capabilities. After four decades later you can still see the same lines in the American design B-2 Spirit, the Germans had it already in 1944.

Also note that the German prototypes were close to, but not exactly "complete", so the jet-powered version was never flight-tested.

Indeed Horten Brothers aircraft H.IX V-2 flew with two jet-powered JunkersJumo 004B -engines.

H.IX V2
First powered prototype, one built and flown with twin Junkers Jumo 004B engines.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

Just before the war ended in 1945 the development of this H.IX V2 version was announced to be complete.

An "Amerikabomber" was also not likely to have been completed for several more years, as Germany's technology was still not capable of a "practical" design with a useable payload at that extreme range by the end of WWII. Fly there and back, maybe; fly there, do something USEFUL, and fly back, no way. Of course, they already had their Dirigible designs, which were quite capable of such a round trip long before the war, although pathetically vulnerable even by that time. Their nuclear weapon program had one insurmountable obstacle: the fusion bomb needed a fission bomb to create the temperatures and pressures necessary for fusion, and by war's end Germany was nowhere near developing a fission bomb like the Americans were already testing. Dropping a 500kg conventional HE bomb or two on the US wasn't likely to change the course of the war. Berlin being nuked was a far more likely scenario.

Yes, 'Amerikabomber' -project is much more theoretical, but the Germans still had much of the technology to complete this project, it just didn't happen like many things didn't. The schedule was far behind to change the course of the war. And this is correct for all German Wunderwaffe. The Miracle Weapons didn't affect to the outcome of the World War II. But they are very interesting part of the history of the WW2. They are a proof that the Germans were advanced more than the Allies or the Soviets in some branches of technology and science. Let's think rocketry, only rocket weapon used by the Allies or the Soviets in WW2 I can think is the Soviet Katyusha rocket launcher. You cannot compare it with the German V-rocket technology. Wernher von Braun, the V-2 rocket designer was adopted by the Americans and he made a noteworthy career servicing NASA afterwards.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

The jet-powered Horten-Ho 229 was radically invisible, a stealth fighter/bomber, a flying wing.

The stealth thing is an extremely dubious post-war claim.

https://airandspace.si.edu/collections/horten-ho-229-v3/about/is-it-stealth.cfm

Not sure, what do you mean by this. Like you said, the Americans had their first flying wings only after the WW2. And undoubtedly they adopted much from the German design.

At least according to wiki, Americans were already working on YB-35 flying wing bomber that Kovax mentioned in early 1942.

 

[Jopa79]

The stealth thing is an extremely dubious post-war claim.

Focusing on what I meant to say and what my sources say, Horten-Ho 229 had some characteristics when speaking of the stealthy thing. The aircraft wasn't fully invisible in radar, but its silhouette and the surface absorbed electromagnetic radiation. With this capability combined its speed the radar network on the British Isles would not have had enough time and the British fighters wouldn't have had time to intercept Horten-Ho fighter/bombers.

Thanks for the link!

 

[Jopa79]

The stealth thing is an extremely dubious post-war claim.

https://airandspace.si.edu/collections/horten-ho-229-v3/about/is-it-stealth.cfm



At least according to wiki, Americans were already working on YB-35 flying wing bomber that Kovax mentioned in early 1942.

If this is about when the research started, the Horten Brothers started as early as in the 1930s with their flying wing model. I think that more important is that the Horten-Ho 229 flew with its jet engines during WW2. But the Allied didn't have a flying jet aircraft during the same time.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

and the surface absorbed electromagnetic radiation.

I don't know about geometry, but the purported absorbent coating (not present on the prototype), described by Horton long after the war would have been ineffective against contemporary allied radars.

 

[Jopa79]

I don't know about geometry, but the purported absorbent coating (not present on the prototype), described by Horton long after the war would have been ineffective against contemporary allied radars.

Yes, and the only thing I know about rocket science is that XRP is going to the moon

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Yes, and the only thing I know about rocket science is that XRP is going to the moon

It's in the link I gave. To summarize: no absorbent material was detected on the prototype and as per seperate study by Northrop Grumman it would have been ineffective to begin with.

 

[Jopa79]

It's in the link I gave. To summarize: no absorbent material was detected on the prototype and as per seperate study by Northrop Grumman it would have been ineffective to begin with

Yeah...but these guys will tell you different story, starting somewhere at 36:00 and it keeps going for several minutes...sooooo overwhelming

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Yeah...but these guys will tell you different story, starting somewhere at 36:00 and it keeps going for several minutes...sooooo overwhelming

Not really a different story. I watched it for a while from the point you mentiond and nothing is said about absorbent coating. They say that it had about 20% reduced radar signature, apparently when talking about it's frontal profile.

But yes, of course it would have been immensely difficult to intercept, this is on account of it's speed alone. Even the more conventional Ar 234 was difficult to intercept. Had it somehow been available in numbers in last half a year of the war or so it would have instead been killed on airfields and during takeoff/landing (in intruder missions) like rest of German jets.

 

[Jopa79]

They say that it had about 20% reduced radar signature, apparently when talking about it's frontal profile.

But this is just what I've been saying all the time, the plane wasn't fully invisible but had charasterictics when talkin about the stealth capability and combined with the speed this aircraft would have been a game changer if it was to be a mass produced...fair enough, you got point on your content too and I think it was the same Northorp Grumman team in the link you sent and as well in the National Geography document that I posted

 

[Count Blue]

I remember "flying" that thing Go-229 (for Gothaer aircraft factory) in a Lucasfilm PC Game called
"The secret weapons of the luftwaffe" sometime in the 90s of the previous millenium.

Its advantage was its enourmous speed in comparision to the conventional aircraft of the allies.
Only the Me 262 was on somehow equal turf but the Go 229 could carry a little heavier bomb load if memory serves me right.

The Me 163 rocket interceptor was also pretty fast but had only for 8 minutes fuel
and was only armed with a machine cannon 30mm which sounded like a steamhammer and rockets.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

Flying wings didn't become practical before digital fly-by-wire technology. While impressive on many fronts the HO-229 never could have become a front line fighter in the 1940s.

 

[Henry IX]

The HO-229 was, like so many of the wunderwaffe, an interesting design with superb potential that was totally useless for the 3rd Reich. Like so many wunderwaffe they required advanced production facilities and access to resources that the German state had inadequate or no access to, such as fuel, trained pilots, high performance alloys and aluminium. Alien space bats could have teleported 10000 of these things to Germany and they would simply have sat around without the trained pilots to fly them, the fuel to fly them or the fuel to train the pilots to fly them.

On the odd occasion one of them actually took off it would likely be shot down as it tried to land or over its target, if it was being used as a bomber. Even if they were used (transfer all the trained pilots on to them and prioritise them for fuel) the early jet engines had very short lifetimes and the Germans lacked the ability to replace damaged parts effectively due to lack of resources (particularly aluminium).

None the less it is cool looking plane with a very futuristic profile and I wish they had actually built a couple.

 

[Count Blue]

Flying wings didn't become practical before digital fly-by-wire technology. While impressive on many fronts the HO-229 never could have become a front line fighter in the 1940s.

True, there were few pilots who could master that design. Without fly by wire it was almost impossible.
Did you know there were gliders with that design for the experimental stage and it seems they were quite ok.
But it sure was dangerous as hell. Once it would go out of a stable flight you were more or less doomed.

But equally dangerous was the design of the Me-163. This one killed almost all pilots sooner or later.

 

[Jopa79]

The HO-229 was, like so many of the wunderwaffe, an interesting design with superb potential that was totally useless for the 3rd Reich. Like so many wunderwaffe they required advanced production facilities and access to resources that the German state had inadequate or no access to, such as fuel, trained pilots, high performance alloys and aluminium. Alien space bats could have teleported 10000 of these things to Germany and they would simply have sat around without the trained pilots to fly them, the fuel to fly them or the fuel to train the pilots to fly them.

On the odd occasion one of them actually took off it would likely be shot down as it tried to land or over its target, if it was being used as a bomber. Even if they were used (transfer all the trained pilots on to them and prioritise them for fuel) the early jet engines had very short lifetimes and the Germans lacked the ability to replace damaged parts effectively due to lack of resources (particularly aluminium).

None the less it is cool looking plane with a very futuristic profile and I wish they had actually built a couple.

I totally agree with you. During the last stages of the WW2 the Germans had their hands full of new and advanced technology, they were a way ahead the Allies and the Soviets. But the Germans faced serious issues when trying to take the best use of the innovations. The problems proved to be too difficult to overcome with, not enough facilities, resources or the manpower, just like you already told. It's interesting to notice, that all this impressive technology became available in 1944 and still even in 1945 and at that point it was too late for good. But the situation might have been significantly different, if the Nazis had their Wunderwaffe(s) a couple of years earlier. And according the written history the German High Military Command was aware of this from the very beginning. It had done the "homework" in 1939 and the results told them, that if Germany was willing to win the war it had to make that in the coming few years, but if there weren't remarkable signs of progress of success by 1942, the situation would be significantly worse. If I try to imagine this, it must have been frustrating with all that superb technology, but you cannot do anything but desperate measures.

Like the Ho-229 in the air, the Type XXI U-boat might have been the 'game changer' in the Battle of the Atlantic. This submarine design was the first to operate rather at submerged than on surface and it even reached higher speed at submerged(17.2knots) than on surface(15.6knots).

And about the fuel shortage...I think I've seen authentical documentary movies for the last few months of the war and on the screen one can see mules pulling the German aircraft from the hangars on to the runway and vice versa!!!...they really tried to save every single drop of that precious petroleum.

The Wunderwaffe -technology was pioneering, it was onward its time, but the Germans just couldn't take the advantage. The short-term future just after the war showed the true potential of this breakthrough -technology, like with the submerged nuclear submarines, in rocketry and in the field of aeronautics.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

During the last stages of the WW2 the Germans had their hands full of new and advanced technology, they were a way ahead the Allies and the Soviets.

You were closer on the mark when you said earlier that the Germans were ahead in some areas. Remember, Allies were the ones with the actual wunderwaffes (the nuke and the Ultra).

Like the Ho-229 in the air, the Type XXI U-boat might have been the 'game changer' in the Battle of the Atlantic. This submarine design was the first to operate rather at submerged than on surface and it even reached higher speed at submerged(17.2knots) than on surface(15.6knots).

The Type XXI was probably the most promising and also the most likely of the German "wunderwaffe". Importantly the two principle technologies, fast underwater speed (pioneered by British during WW1 with the R-class SSKs) and the submarine snorkel (invented by Dutch just before the war) were available early. Of course, the Allies had the same basic technology but didn't put 1 and 2 together so having some kind of early Type XXI equivalent in water in something like 1942 is still bit of a stretch, but it's possible.

 

[Kovax]

Germany was ahead in several fields, but significantly behind in others. Soviet metallurgy, for instance, exceeded anything Germany could produce, particularly in terms of titanium-aluminum alloys, where Germany had less experience and no significant domestic supplies. Some of Germany's best tank destroyers (Marder III) were built with excellent captured Soviet 76mm guns using more powerful German ammunition atop Czech-designed tracked chassis. Several mechanical innovations, such as the torsion bar suspension used on the Panther tank, were developed in Sweden and other countries before the war by combined teams with some German engineers, since Germany was forbidden to do such research on its own.

The bigger issue for Germany was that it lacked sources for several specialty metals essential to produce high-grade steel and aluminum alloys, and most of the "Wunderwaffen" required such materials in quantity. While it could produce decent high quality alloys in the laboratory, it was unable to use them in large-scale production, and late war German equipment was often unreliable due to substandard metal, poor workmanship, and serious design compromises to deal with the lack of suitable materials. Adding another high-tech toy with insane material demands was simply not helpful in Germany's situation. Adding another advanced aircraft design with a tendency to kill even experienced pilots was counter-productive (the Me-163 used a 2-part fuel, one part being highly corrosive and the other highly explosive, and a hard landing either caused the glass seals on the stainless steel fuel lines to crack and douse the pilot with corrosive fluid, or else caused an explosion).

Both the Americans and the UK flew prototype jet or rocket fighters before the end of the war, although they weren't yet available for front-line service. On the other hand, the first post-war Soviet MiG jet fighters were essentially a German prototype design put straight into production. Germany was definitely ahead in rocket engine design, and the post-war rocketry programs in both the US and Soviet Union heavily involved captured German rocket scientists.

As for flying wing designs, there were tailless glider designs dating back before WWI, and if Otto Lilenthal (sp?) hadn't died in a glider accident, he might have beaten the Wright Brothers in developing the first successful powered aircraft - possibly as a flying wing, or with only a vestigial tail. The Horten brothers were only a couple years ahead in flying wing development, which was already in progress at Northrop.

 

[Jopa79]

You were closer on the mark when you said earlier that the Germans were ahead in some areas. Remember, Allies were the ones with the actual wunderwaffes (the nuke and the Ultra).

Of course the Allies had the nukes and even if they didn't have, it was game over for Germany already. I don't know what is Ultra, please share your information.

Like Henry IX said, all the new weaponry/technology was useless for the 3rd Reich because of the shortage and lack of everything.

But it was the Germans, they introduced first the "true" U-boat with excellent submerged capabilities, they introduced first an aircraft with jet powered engines and they introduced first a guided ballistic missile, not the Allies. At least I haven't heard that the Allies had successfull, or ongoing projects during the interwar period or in the WW2 era in these areas, or did they and if they did, how far from completing these projects were they?