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vanin

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I want to start this overly long post by saying that I have no bone to pick in the ethnicities of the area discussed in this period. I know it can be sensitive to some people, so please keep your sensitivities out. These things happened about 100 generations before any of us were born, keep that number in mind.

After first seeing the reveal of the state of later Germania in the game a while back there has been a lot of discussion regarding what a more correct representation would be. I hope I can add to that discussion and give some pointers with this post. I want to add that I hope someone a lot more knowledgeable than I comes in and tells me how I am all wrong about all of this - I love history and have a good memory, but my competence on this subject ends there.

Central-Eastern Europe around 300BC

The Pomeranian culture complex was replaced by the Oksywie and Przeworsk cultures around 250BC onwards. The two groups are very similar, but Oksywie has more similarities to its western Jastorf neighbours. It is uncertain what caused this change, but it resulted in a shift in material culture and settlement placement, even if the area covered was largely the same. The Przeworsk may be represented by the Lugi confederation mentioned by Tacitus, and in the late Roman period as Vandals. It seems likely that it, like the coastal Oksywie, Przeworsk represents Germanic groups entering the area but this is still debated. [1]

Discussion: The original population in modern Poland before the arrival of Przeworsk culture may have vacated the area, perhaps heading south-east, for a hundred reasons. Only a few cases of pottery from Pomeranian and the latter two groups have been found together [1] and the two fashions are dissimilar. Also settlements are not the same before and after, with discontinued settlement where predominantly Pomeranian artifacts have been found. The end result was that between 250 and 200 BC Pomeranian was more or less entirely replaced by Oksywie on the Baltic coast and by Przeworsk everywhere else, implying large scale movements of populations considering that basic material culture as pottery was almost entirely replaced.

The Bastarnae and Sciri
The Sciri and Bastarnae are believed by some to be local Przeworsk expressions further east, taking shape as the Zarubintsy and Poienesti-Lukashevka cultures, respectively. This may be the basis of the assertion that the two tribal groups were Germanic, which Tacitus also reports [1]. A problem with this view is that Zarubintsy and Poienesti-Lukashevka cultures had disappeared by the 1st century AD, allowing one to wonder how the Bastarnae are mentioned in classical sources up until 300 AD.

Poienesti-Lukashevka has also been linked to the Costoboci, probably a Dacian tribe located in northern Moldavia, and Zarubintsy's core is in western Ukraine while the Bastarnae are known to have settled near the Danube delta. This makes classifying the Bastarnae even more difficult as the archaeological record is mixed or scant.

There is also an argument for them being of the Pomeranian culture who preceded the Przeworsk or even proto-Slavic, and migrated east[1], but their identity at the time of their appearence near the Greek colony of Olbia in 230 BC is an unknown due to the complex and varied archaeological cultures in modern Moldavia and southern Ukraine.

Plutarch and Livy suggested the Bastarnae were of Celtic descent while others (Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Zosimus, Pliny) veer towards Germanic or even Sarmatian or Venetic. These may all be classifications that are more geographical than ethnic, linguistic and cultural, and we may never know for sure.

The Sciri name can mean ”pure” in both proto-germanic and proto-baltic (compare to Lithuanian ”skaistus” which means bright, pure) The Bastarnae name can similarly be derived from bastunas in Lithuanian which means wanderer, vagabond. Contrast this with bast- in germanic languages meaning impure.

Discussion: These may, as the sources mention, be the missing ”Pomeranian culture people” who seemingly left today's Poland before the Przeworsk burst onto the scene. The timing seemingly lines up but other than that there is no red thread to hold onto when trying to identify them. I don't personally believe they are clearly Germanic, both due to their name which would hint towards impurity in proto-germanic (which makes no sense unless the cultural connotations of the time made it a positive – contrast with Sciri and later Ubi whose names mean the opposite) and how Przeworsk seems to replace Pomeranian just before they arrive at Olbia in 230BC. I would place them in the same ”Baltic” group as the Aesti, Veneti and Sciri (or them and Sciri in their own Bastarnae group), and place them in southern-central Poland, poised to migrate south-east without much initial opposition.

Goths and Gepids
In the 1st century AD the Wielbark culture replaced the earlier Oksywie culture, and expanded into eastern Poland and north-western Ukraine in the 2nd century AD to sit side-by-side with the earlier Przeworsk culture. This is often associated with the expansion of the Goths and Gepids mentioned by Jordanes and Cassiodorus, but there is little proof of this in Wielbark [1]. This is lately challenged by findings in Wielbark areas compared to earlier Oksywie, where traits similar to those in contemporary Scandinavia and Elbe basin have been found, such as the Odry stone circles and particular spurs in elite burials, that were not there prior [7] [8].

Discussion: I would discount the idea that an entire people calling themselves the Goths migrated from southern Sweden into Poland and transformed everything in one fell swoop. Instead, if we for discussion's sake assume that the ”Goths” originate in Scandinavia, I would propose that the ”Goths” may have been smaller war-parties or exiled nobles from Scandinavia who identified as ”Goths”, arrived at the mouth of the Vistula in the 1st century AD and through a period of raiding and conquest supplanted the existing nobility and imposed their chosen name on the native population (Segway: This is how I would explain the Ubi, who lived in Celtic oppidae and used Celtic stuff but whose name is proto-germanic for ”higher” or ”above” - maybe they were a Germanic warrior elite who supplanted the Celtic elite, and took the name Ubi to differentiate themselves from their Celtic, not-Ubi (lower) subjects).

This could explain how burials changed as Oksywie gave way to Wielbark, as we are much more likely to dig up imperishable materials in elite burials than in commoners'. Contrast this with the transition from Pomeranian to Perzeworsk, which saw huge changes to even pottery [1] which indicates a large population shift. Either way, ”Goths” did not arrive in continental Europe in any force until after the game's time frame, but for gameplay's one could argue for a ”Gothic” tribe in southern Scandinavia in-game for those who want to recreate the Gothic migrations, just a few hundred years early.

The Lugi and the Vandals
The Lugi tribal grouping was pinned as Germanic by Tacitus but he was keen to note they were different from the other Germanic groupings (Istvaeones, Ingvaeones, Irminones). Several other authors of the time mention the Lugi in the same approximate location, but only one mentions the Vandals (Pliny). The two groups are both associated with the Przeworsk culture, which has continuity from its appearance in the 3rd century BC to the 5th century AD [1]. If the Lugi were Germanic their federation's name is odd as it is similar to the Celtic diety Lugus (mentioned by Caesar) who may have been a patron god. Theirs must be a mixed affiliation as the above discussion on Przeworsk implies, with no easy out on their culture.

Discussion: If they were "properly Germanic" the patron god would have been Tiwas, or Tuist (later Tyr). I think it would be a mistake to put a Przeworsk tribal grouping (who were made up of many tribes with different cultural affiliations) with apparently a Celtic patron god as Germanic or Celtic in game. It should be something else, something distinct, aka Lugian. All ancient authors mention they are Germanic, but this is likely just in the geographical sense (extreme example: same as Syrians and Chinese are both Asians) as especially Tacitus makes a clear distinction between them and confirmed Germanic Irminones etc. The Lugi tribal confederation could start around modern Poznan, with opportunities to strike east as the Perzeworsk did. The Vandals should not be present, as the Lugi seems to have become the Vandals, as once one is mentioned the other is not. Moreover the Vandals' first mention is far into Rome's Imperial period.

Celtic tribes and influences in Central Europe
There are solid finds of La Tene culture in southern Poland, specifically in the area around Krakow, upper Silesia, and on the San River (San is River in Celtic) [1] [5]. Another possible location occupied by La Tene Celts is the Calissia mentioned by Ptolemy which may be modern Kalisz, which is sat on the in Antiquity well-known Amber Route [4].

The supposed Celts in Silesia congregated around Mount Sleza and Glubzyce, defined into two groups. Around 120BC the one near Glubzyce seems to have disappeared, but the Sleza group migrated south into Upper Silesia. The Celts near Krakow seem to have arrived around 270BC, becoming the mixed Tyniec group which persisted to around 30 BC. It is postulated the the Tyniec group were reinforced by refugees from Pannonia following Burebista's invasion, prolonging their presence [10] [11]. The Tyneic apparently had a mint where Celtic silver coins were made in the last century BC [12]. The group in the upper San basin were a presence between 270 BC and 170 BC. Lastly there is the nearby mixed Puchov culture which had clear Celtic influences and must have been in close proximity to the Boii. They may have occupied the Beskids and as far as Krakow, and lasted well into the era of the Roman Empire (270BC-170AD) [10].

Discussion: There is a strong possibility that chieftains and nobility imported La Tene wares for their own use and to display their power and status. Another possibility is that that Celtic elites gained control over these areas and continued to use and in some cases perhaps even craft La Tene style wares (as seen with the coinage at Tyneic). As the game does not model languages but only a vague description called ”culture”, the people in this area could very well be described as Celtic – or a more conservative guess, that the elite pops would be Celtic and the poor pops belong to a local, Przeworsk representation (Lugian?). Either way the Celts seems to not have arrived before 270 BC, a ways into the game's period, so they should not be present in the areas listed above at the start.

However they must have come from somewhere, so perhaps a presence south of the Carpathians and in Bohemia is good enough, but politically fractured to allow some to migrate east and north without being too strong. These migrations also coincide with those who set up the Scordisci polity on the Danube, invaded Greece and created Tylis and Galatia, indicating a ”Celtic explosion” around that time in and around the Balkans. The Puchov culture has been identified with the Cotini, who in-game are south of the Danube which is an error. The other groups could be the Manimi, Diduni and Buri who were all associated with or part of the Lugi confederation in later times according to Tacitus, but whose names could be Celtic.

The full picture (or TL;DR)
The Goths, Vandals and Rugi make no appearance on Continental Europe until much later. This is strongly supported by etymological, archaeological and historical evidence. Instead the area covering modern Poland and the Baltic coast should have distinct cultures for Lemovi, Aesti, (Vistula-) Veneti, Bastarnae, Sciri and Lugi. There should be nearby Celtic tribes whose elites are ready to move into southern Poland and contest it with the Lugi, perhaps eventually being swallowed by them or put in their orbit. The Bastarnae and Sciri should be further east, with a highway towards the Black Sea.

Proposed political setup in 303 BC attached.

References:

[1] Barford, Kobylinski, Krasnodebski (1991) ”Between the Slavs, Balts and Germans: Ethnic problems in the archaeology and history of Podlasie” - Archaeologia Polonia v.29 1991
[2] Kaliff, Anders (2001). ”Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD”
[3] Kessler, P L. "Kingdoms of the Germanic Tribes - Goths / Ostrogoths" - www.historyfiles.co.uk
[4] Amber Route Map - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amber_Route_Map.jpg
[5] Ryszard Naglik 2005, Archaeological Motorway
[6] Roger Batty, 2008 ”Rome and the Nomads. The Pontic-Danubian Realm in Antiquity” - Oxford University Press
[7] Odry UNESCO world heritage site
[8] Emilia Smółka ”The presence of spurs in the south-eastern Baltic area in the Roman Iron Age and Migration Period – some remarks” - ISSN 1392-6748
[9] Zbigniew Bukowski 1990, ”Critically about the so-called Amber Route in the Odra and Vistula River basins in the Early Iron Age” Archaeologia Polona vol. 28:1990
[10] Piotr Kaczanowski, Janusz Krzysztof Kozłowski, 1998 ”Najdawniejsze dzieje ziem polskich (do VII w.) (Oldest history of Polish lands (until the 7th century))
[11] Jacek Poleski, Andrzej Chwalba ”Kalendarium dziejów Polski (Chronology of Polish History)”
[12] Arkadiusz Dymowski "The Use of Celtic and Roman Coins in the Territory of Poland at the Turn of teh Era - in Tandem or Separately? New Finds, New Evidence"

General bibliography and ”red thread” from Europa Barbarorum 2 team's excellent ”Preview: The Lugiones”
 

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Interesting to read, hopefully Paradox will read it too.

Regarding the Goths:

It's a little early in history but for gameplay purpose I think it's okey to have Goths living in Poland during this time because there a probably many players who would like to play as them.

As a compromise I suggested earlier that one along the Polish coastline could add two countries named "Visigothia" and "Ostrogothia" that begin the game as allies. They could also - if it's possible - begin the game in a personal union like in EU4. And the king/chieftain should have the lastname "Amali" since that was the ruling dynasty of the (ostro)goths.

BUT another possible localisation for "Visigothia" and "Ostrogothia" could also be to put them around the Swedish provinces of Östergötland ("Ostrogothia" in latin btw!), Småland or Blekinge. The player could them himself/herself emigrate to Poland, as the Goths did historically.
 
I like this thread.

It's late, and I'm tired, so I'm not going to address this point-by-point today; but I will return to it when the area is revisited (hopefullly soon!).

As you clearly realise, this is not an area we know much about in terms of verifiable data. Least of all for tribal names. One of the common problems we have run into in areas such as this, is that whilst it is relatively easy to say 'that is wrong, tribe X should not be present', it is nigh impossible to say which ones should. That said, I appreciate the lengths to which you have gone to provide sources, and I shall hunt down the ones I have not encountered thus far.
 
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I want to start this overly long post by saying that I have no bone to pick in the ethnicities of the area discussed in this period. I know it can be sensitive to some people, so please keep your sensitivities out. These things happened about 100 generations before any of us were born, keep that number in mind.
I'd say this is one of the most important points here. Saying things like "Germans can't originate from Poland!" or "There were no (proto-)Germans in Germany in 300 BC; they all came from Scandinavia!" won't bring us far, as those aren't really backed up by archeology and are often based on "popular culture". I hope that we can discuss here without having to deal with such comments.

Goths and Gepids
In the 1st century AD the Wielbark culture replaced the earlier Oksywie culture, and expanded into eastern Poland and north-western Ukraine in the 2nd century AD to sit side-by-side with the earlier Przeworsk culture. This is often associated with the expansion of the Goths and Gepids mentioned by Jordanes and Cassiodorus, but there is little proof of this in Wielbark [1]. This is lately challenged by findings in Wielbark areas compared to earlier Oksywie, where traits similar to those in contemporary Scandinavia and Elbe basin have been found, such as the Odry stone circles and particular spurs in elite burials, that were not there prior [7] [8].

Discussion: I would discount the idea that an entire people calling themselves the Goths migrated from southern Sweden into Poland and transformed everything in one fell swoop. Instead, if we for discussion's sake assume that the ”Goths” originate in Scandinavia, I would propose that the ”Goths” may have been smaller war-parties or exiled nobles from Scandinavia who identified as ”Goths”, arrived at the mouth of the Vistula in the 1st century AD and through a period of raiding and conquest supplanted the existing nobility and imposed their chosen name on the native population (Segway: This is how I would explain the Ubi, who lived in Celtic oppidae and used Celtic stuff but whose name is proto-germanic for ”higher” or ”above” - maybe they were a Germanic warrior elite who supplanted the Celtic elite, and took the name Ubi to differentiate themselves from their Celtic, not-Ubi (lower) subjects).

This could explain how burials changed as Oksywie gave way to Wielbark, as we are much more likely to dig up imperishable materials in elite burials than in commoners'. Contrast this with the transition from Pomeranian to Perzeworsk, which saw huge changes to even pottery [1] which indicates a large population shift. Either way, ”Goths” did not arrive in continental Europe in any force until after the game's time frame, but for gameplay's one could argue for a ”Gothic” tribe in southern Scandinavia in-game for those who want to recreate the Gothic migrations, just a few hundred years early.
The following is based on the German book "Geschichte der Westgoten" by Gerd Kampers, 2009, which I found very helpful, as it focuses on the evolution of the Wielbark culture.
  • The first mention of the Goths was by Strabon around 5 AD, so they had to be there from the very beginning of the Wielbark culture. Tacitus mentioned them together with the Rugii and the Lemovii. They are also mentioned by Plinius.
  • During the first phase of the Wielbark culture (1 AD - 80 AD), the same burial sites are used with the same burial customs. Men are no longer buried with their weapons, though.
  • Only after 80 AD, barrows with constructions out of stone and stone circles appear in the same regions where the older burial sites were. This lead to two different types of burial customs co-existing.
He concludes with the Goths already being there before a potential Scandinavian influx could have happened, and that, even after the new customs are introduced, the Wielbark culture differs from both the Przworsk and Scandinavian in the point that there were no weapons in tombs.
 
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I like this thread.

It's late, and I'm tired, so I'm not going to address this point-by-point today; but I will return to it when the area is revisited (hopefullly soon!).

As you clearly realise, this is not an area we know much about in terms of verifiable data. Least of all for tribal names. One of the common problems we have run into in areas such as this, is that whilst it is relatively easy to say 'that is wrong, tribe X should not be present', it is nigh impossible to say which ones should. That said, I appreciate the lengths to which you have gone to provide sources, and I shall hunt down the ones I have not encountered thus far.
I'm glad to be of help! Especially the archaeologica polana is an impressive resource, every issue being free and available online.
The only things I would dare call "wrong" right now is the inclusion of the vandals and the placement of the cotini. Everything else is up to interpretation, including the culture of the bastarnae. I can't for the life of me conclude they are more than partially germanic because of the etymology and how the timeline of the pomeranian culture vanishing lines up so well.

Regarding the Goths, they weren't the focal point of my post but more to serve as an explanation of when what we later call germanics arrived in the region.
I disagree with calling them visi and ostro goths, those are 4th and 5 th century ad inventions. Thervingi and Greuthungi are more apt but again, 2nd and 3rd century inventions.
I still subscribe to the theory that their name could be derived from southern Sweden, but that doesn't mean their ethnicity originated there. Oksywie clearly had germanic tendencies and they may have spoken what we later call the east germanic branch - this applies to the lugi/vandali as well. Thus no huge population shift would be required.
Etymology speaks heavily in favour for an origin in southern Sweden, unless one believes that two extremely similar names developed in about the same geographical region parallel to each other at the same time. An option would be that the geats are actually colonists from Poland. I don't think it matters, I'd not include Scandinavia on the map and I would, if at all, have these later tribes as emerging factions on the baltic coast if the conditions are right.
I will have to read strabo to find his quote on the goths, I didn't know he mentioned them. I will also try to find possible parallels regarding depopulation on the German baltic coast, and see whether it lines up with oral traditions and archeology. But it's a topic for another time.
 
I'm glad to be of help! Especially the archaeologica polana is an impressive resource, every issue being free and available online.
The only things I would dare call "wrong" right now is the inclusion of the vandals and the placement of the cotini. Everything else is up to interpretation, including the culture of the bastarnae. I can't for the life of me conclude they are more than partially germanic because of the etymology and how the timeline of the pomeranian culture vanishing lines up so well.

Regarding the Goths, they weren't the focal point of my post but more to serve as an explanation of when what we later call germanics arrived in the region.
I disagree with calling them visi and ostro goths, those are 4th and 5 th century ad inventions. Thervingi and Greuthungi are more apt but again, 2nd and 3rd century inventions.
I still subscribe to the theory that their name could be derived from southern Sweden, but that doesn't mean their ethnicity originated there. Oksywie clearly had germanic tendencies and they may have spoken what we later call the east germanic branch - this applies to the lugi/vandali as well. Thus no huge population shift would be required.
Etymology speaks heavily in favour for an origin in southern Sweden, unless one believes that two extremely similar names developed in about the same geographical region parallel to each other at the same time. An option would be that the geats are actually colonists from Poland. I don't think it matters, I'd not include Scandinavia on the map and I would, if at all, have these later tribes as emerging factions on the baltic coast if the conditions are right.
I will have to read strabo to find his quote on the goths, I didn't know he mentioned them. I will also try to find possible parallels regarding depopulation on the German baltic coast, and see whether it lines up with oral traditions and archeology. But it's a topic for another time.
In his Geographika (VII, 1, 17), Strabon mentions the Butones which is often interpreted as Gutones. The English translation of that part is:

[...]domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favour of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini, and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves.

Plinius the Elder also mentions the Gutones, and his information is from 59 AD or earlier.
Toto autem mari ad Scaldim usque fluvium Germaniae accolunt gentes, haud explicabili mesnura: tam inmodica prodentium discordia est. Graeci et quidam nostri |XXV| oram Germaniae tradiderunt, Agrippa cum Raetia et Norico longitudinem DCXXXVI, latitudinem CCXLVIII, si coniectare permittitur, haut multum ora deerit Graecorum opinioni et longitudini ab Agrippa proditae. Germanorum genera quinque: Vandili, quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones. alterum genus Inguaeones, quorum pars Cimbri, Teutoni ac Chaucorum gentes....
 
The only thing I can contribute here is very scant knowledge on the Bastarnae (although I already talked about the Goths in another thread):

I think it is very difficult for anyone to make a clear decision on whether the Bastarnae were celts or germans (there are also some samaritan-thracian theories going around but from my understanding those aren't widely accepted) especially when we take into consideration that archaeologists and historians like to formulate their own opinions on gaps in our historical knowledge, so it should come to no surprise that the celtic archaeologists prefer the Bastarnae to be celts and the germanic archaeologists as germans. Knowing how germanic and celtic cultures like to blend together I wouldn't be surprised they were to some degree both.
I just like to think of them as a germanic tribe because their name sounds an awful lot like a latinization of a possible older form of Bund --> which would make them a tribal federation of much smaller (east?) germanic tribes.

When it comes down to it I think Paradox Interactive should keep them germanic because in my opinion it would be fun to see a strong germanic tribe cause some ruckus in south-eastern Europe like the celts were starting to do in this era. I'm not sure if it was already discussed in a dev diary but IGN has shown that (atleast germanic) tribes can migrate their pops to uncolonised provinces, which would allow for the Bastarnae (perhaps with a more migratory-focused AI?) or other tribes to come into early contact with them civilised folk.

Maybe they could throw in a celtic tribe such as the Bohemian Boii, such as Paland0 talked about, or another one to spice up that area, although I can see multiple celtic tribes north of Paeonia and Illyria judging from the religion map mode they showed a few dev diaries ago, so that might not be necessary for game purposes imo :)
 
The Lugi and the Vandals
The Lugi tribal grouping was pinned as Germanic by Tacitus but he was keen to note they were different from the other Germanic groupings (Istvaeones, Ingvaeones, Irminones). Several other authors of the time mention the Lugi in the same approximate location, but only one mentions the Vandals (Pliny). The two groups are both associated with the Przeworsk culture, which has continuity from its appearance in the 3rd century BC to the 5th century AD [1]. If the Lugi were Germanic their federation's name is odd as it is similar to the Celtic diety Lugus (mentioned by Caesar) who may have been a patron god. Theirs must be a mixed affiliation as the above discussion on Przeworsk implies, with no easy out on their culture.

Discussion: If they were "properly Germanic" the patron god would have been Tiwas, or Tuist (later Tyr). I think it would be a mistake to put a Przeworsk tribal grouping (who were made up of many tribes with different cultural affiliations) with apparently a Celtic patron god as Germanic or Celtic in game. It should be something else, something distinct, aka Lugian. All ancient authors mention they are Germanic, but this is likely just in the geographical sense (extreme example: same as Syrians and Chinese are both Asians) as especially Tacitus makes a clear distinction between them and confirmed Germanic Irminones etc. The Lugi tribal confederation could start around modern Poznan, with opportunities to strike east as the Perzeworsk did. The Vandals should not be present, as the Lugi seems to have become the Vandals, as once one is mentioned the other is not. Moreover the Vandals' first mention is far into Rome's Imperial period.
I remembered that I had a source talking about the name of the Lemovii and others, so I re-read it (Lemovii, Helvecones, Baiavi, Barívoi, Chamavi, Cherusci Stammesnamen zwischen Germanen und Kelten, Norbert Wagner, 2016). There the name of the Lugii is traced back to the Celtic god, like you've already mentioned. Tacitus depicted the Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali as part of that Lugian federation, and the Victovali are mentioned by other ancient authors.
Of those the Naharvali and Victovali have a Celtic based name because of their ending -vali. Furthermore, the Helveconae's name derives from the Germanic word elwa, which in turn derives from the Celtic word eluio like in the name of the Helvetii, and the meaning could be related to yellow. The "o" in the name of the Helveconae could be a result of a Germanisation.

The same might be true for the Lemovii, whose name is derived from the Gaulish Lemavi (a -> o). The Lemovii were located at the Baltic coastline alongside the Rugii, whereas the (culturally) related Gutones were located further inland of those two (Tacitus).

All in all, I think the Lugii should have a distinct culture and maybe even religion (named after the Alces?) like you said. The Lemovii, Gutones and Rugii should also share one culture (at least if we assume that the Gutones' and Rugii's ancestors were already living on the continent).
 
I remembered that I had a source talking about the name of the Lemovii and others, so I re-read it (Lemovii, Helvecones, Baiavi, Barívoi, Chamavi, Cherusci Stammesnamen zwischen Germanen und Kelten, Norbert Wagner, 2016). There the name of the Lugii is traced back to the Celtic god, like you've already mentioned. Tacitus depicted the Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali as part of that Lugian federation, and the Victovali are mentioned by other ancient authors.
Of those the Naharvali and Victovali have a Celtic based name because of their ending -vali. Furthermore, the Helveconae's name derives from the Germanic word elwa, which in turn derives from the Celtic word eluio like in the name of the Helvetii, and the meaning could be related to yellow. The "o" in the name of the Helveconae could be a result of a Germanisation.

The same might be true for the Lemovii, whose name is derived from the Gaulish Lemavi (a -> o). The Lemovii were located at the Baltic coastline alongside the Rugii, whereas the (culturally) related Gutones were located further inland of those two (Tacitus).

All in all, I think the Lugii should have a distinct culture and maybe even religion (named after the Alces?) like you said. The Lemovii, Gutones and Rugii should also share one culture (at least if we assume that the Gutones' and Rugii's ancestors were already living on the continent).
When discussing the Lugi tribes I used sources (linked in the OP) that are all older than 2016 so perhaps scholarship has moved on since then. I think it depends on who you ask, too. We only have written accounts to guess from and again I have seen arguments for Germanic, Celtic or Baltic origin for those names. It does not help that those written accounts are from authors who listened with (ancient) Greek or Latin ears and wrote down their interpretation.

Regarding the Lugi, yeah I think they should be their own thing. I have read Celtic, Germanic and Baltic argument as well as arguments that they are their "own" culture/people and in light of the scattered evidence I think it is best if they are distinctly Lugian, it seems like the least wrong interpretation. Their culture is seemingly distinct as it is Przeworsk and not just Jastorf/Ripdorf/Seedorf. They could already be in their confederation state, or be a formable by one of the many tribes you mentioned (that then would have to be put on the map). Religion I am uncertain about, if their name is to show their dedication to Lugus then would they be Druidic? (Another question: Should any Celts on the continent be Druidic? I have seen murmurs that druids are a Britain thing only - topic for another time) Or should they have their own religion? Tacitus mentioned that the Harrai/Arrai led a cult to Aeswina (sp.), would that be your Alces (I only found articles on meese when I Googled it) ?

I am still partial towards not having the Goths/Rugi/Gepids on the continent by this time, as at least the Goths are so strongly tied to the Wielbark culture which only came much later. In my book it does not matter whether you argue for Scandinavian or continental ancestry, those tribes are most likely later constructs - if Scandinavia was not on the map I would have them as factions that emerge halfway into the game if those provinces are not owned, without mentioning how they got there.
 
When discussing the Lugi tribes I used sources (linked in the OP) that are all older than 2016 so perhaps scholarship has moved on since then. I think it depends on who you ask, too. We only have written accounts to guess from and again I have seen arguments for Germanic, Celtic or Baltic origin for those names. It does not help that those written accounts are from authors who listened with (ancient) Greek or Latin ears and wrote down their interpretation.

Regarding the Lugi, yeah I think they should be their own thing. I have read Celtic, Germanic and Baltic argument as well as arguments that they are their "own" culture/people and in light of the scattered evidence I think it is best if they are distinctly Lugian, it seems like the least wrong interpretation. Their culture is seemingly distinct as it is Przeworsk and not just Jastorf/Ripdorf/Seedorf. They could already be in their confederation state, or be a formable by one of the many tribes you mentioned (that then would have to be put on the map). Religion I am uncertain about, if their name is to show their dedication to Lugus then would they be Druidic? (Another question: Should any Celts on the continent be Druidic? I have seen murmurs that druids are a Britain thing only - topic for another time) Or should they have their own religion? Tacitus mentioned that the Harrai/Arrai led a cult to Aeswina (sp.), would that be your Alces (I only found articles on meese when I Googled it) ?
I'm not so sure about druids being also present on the continent, but I guess we should let that open for someone who knows more about it?

I got that name from Tacitus's Germania (my Germania edition mentions Alces as basic form of it in order to relate it to the Latin word for elks):
apud Naharvalos antiquae religionis lucus ostenditur. praesidet sacerdos muliebri ornatu, sed deos interpretatione Romana Castorem Pollucemque memorant. ea vis numini, nomen Alcis. nulla simulacra, nullum peregrinae superstitionis vestigium; ut fratres tamen, ut iuvenes venerantur.

A distinct culture for the Lugian tribes would certainly be better than making them Irminonic or even Varinian as they are now.

I am still partial towards not having the Goths/Rugi/Gepids on the continent by this time, as at least the Goths are so strongly tied to the Wielbark culture which only came much later. In my book it does not matter whether you argue for Scandinavian or continental ancestry, those tribes are most likely later constructs - if Scandinavia was not on the map I would have them as factions that emerge halfway into the game if those provinces are not owned, without mentioning how they got there.
The problem is that we don't have the luxury of too many names, but instead lack names in general. We only know how the people, who are presumably the descendants of the people living there in 300 BC, called themselves around the year 1AD and then up to the 2nd century AD. I don't see a problem with calling those mainland inhabitants Gutones (and the Scandinavian tribes called Gaets and Gutes), as we had to do that for so many other tribes already.
 
Making a own culture for Lugian would bring a new problem: Name lists. How should Lugian characters be named?
Varinians, Bastarnae, Anglians, Saxons and many more have their own culture, so I don't see a problem there.
 
Varinians, Bastarnae, Anglians, Saxons and many more have their own culture, so I don't see a problem there.

Wasn't the argument here that they should be something else than Germans? So I just misunderstand it and the suggestion is just: Make them a own culture within the Germanics and give them Germanic names?
 
Wasn't the argument here that they should be something else than Germans? So I just misunderstand it and the suggestion is just: Make them a own culture within the Germanics and give them Germanic names?
That would be at least my approach, but I don't know about vanin.
The Aestui have a completely own culture, so I guess they were still able to find names for them?
 
The problem is that we don't have the luxury of too many names, but instead lack names in general. We only know how the people, who are presumably the descendants of the people living there in 300 BC, called themselves around the year 1AD and then up to the 2nd century AD. I don't see a problem with calling those mainland inhabitants Gutones (and the Scandinavian tribes called Gaets and Gutes), as we had to do that for so many other tribes already.
That isn't the side I am arguing from. I would avoid what we can rule out in 300 BC and do the best guesstimates possible for the rest. There are plenty of other tribes that can be related to the Przeworsk/Oksywie culture in the area that we know where on the scene prior to the Goths, such as the ones you mentioned a few posts ago. As Goths are clearly Wielbark which arose around 1AD, I would leave them out at the start. Lugians f.e. are clearly Przeworsk, but predate the similarly Przeworsk Vandals, so I would keep the Lugi in and Vandals out. Bastarnae and Sciri are known from an earlier time without a specified original location (so I used conjecture as in the OP), and the Aesti are attested in archaeology. If we go by the theory that no Germanics originate in Scandinavia, the Lemovi are the safest bet on which tribe could be on or near the coast in 300 BC (if they were even Germanic) as they have been linked to the Oksywie culture which predates the Wielbark culture by around 250 years.

Thure is right in that name lists could be very hard (or impossible), as we have Celtic, Germanic and Baltic available and all are "taken" by other identified groups. What would the Lugians be? I am not convinced that they were 100% Germanic, but rather a mix of local and foreign influences such as Celtic, Pomeranian and West-baltic, in addition to Jastorf. Europa Barbarorum placed them in the same basket as the Vistula Veneti (and by extension the Aesti and other proto-Balts) with proto-Baltic names. But we do know that the Przeworsk at least "became" Germanic at some point as the Vandals, so them being a Lugian culture within the Germanic group could work as an easy out/compromise. In either case they should in my opinion not be Tuistic, and instead be tied to their name-giver Lugus or the by Paland0 mentioned Alces (I don't know enough to have an opinion regarding that one). This should differentiate them enough from their neighbours, and variety is always a plus as far as I am concerned. It is also a good way to portray their mixed nature without resorting to fictional name lists.

A third option is to give them a unique culture group with a namelist mixed with some Germanic, Baltic and Celtic names. Again, a compromise.
 
I again thought about the Lugian - Vandal thing you proposed. A possible explanation why Plinius uses the name Vandals could be that he dwelt quite a long time in Germania Magna, so that he might have gotten his information from Germans. Those Germans could've used the name they give the Lugians, but that's only speculation on my part.

That isn't the side I am arguing from. I would avoid what we can rule out in 300 BC and do the best guesstimates possible for the rest. There are plenty of other tribes that can be related to the Przeworsk/Oksywie culture in the area that we know where on the scene prior to the Goths, such as the ones you mentioned a few posts ago.
The problem here is that the Lemovii and the Rugii were first mentioned by Tacitus around 100 AD, whereas the first mention of the Gutones was around 5 AD by Strabon and Plinius, whose information most likely dates back to the point in time when he was in Germania Magna (47 AD - before 59 AD), mentions the Gutones, too. Thus there's a smaller time gap between their first mention and the game's start date.
As Goths are clearly Wielbark which arose around 1AD, I would leave them out at the start. Lugians f.e. are clearly Przeworsk, but predate the similarly Przeworsk Vandals, so I would keep the Lugi in and Vandals out. If we go by the theory that no Germanics originate in Scandinavia, the Lemovi are the safest bet on which tribe could be on or near the coast in 300 BC (if they were even Germanic) as they have been linked to the Oksywie culture which predates the Wielbark culture by around 250 years.
Why are you so sure to be able to equate those cultures? I know that we'll most likely never know for sure, but we shouldn't take something as granted either. As this game needs to make decisions, we have to take one of those many possibilities if we want to represent them. I've already mentioned in another thread that I'm not really a fan of having any Germanic tribes there at all and would've prefered dynamically spawned barbarian hordes instead; yet I can understand the desire to make them playable.

I've shown you my source that states that there was a continuity in the general populace between the Oxhöft and the Wielbark culture. Only later, the Scandinavian influences came into existence around 80 AD.
To go back to your theory of a Scandinavian elite subjugating the people that lived there before: The name dates back around 80 years before the first appearance of tombs that could be traced back to Scandinavian influence, so this elite would need to appear several years before 5 AD and be able to name the subjugated tribe after their previous tribe, but in the same turn also abandon their burial rituals. I deem it very implausible that an elite powerful enough to subjugate the former inhabitants would just abandon their old customs, as they certainly would've had the possibility to do so. Why would it then resurface again after around 3 generations? The elite that conquered the tribe would've been already dead and whether or not there would be anyone remembering their "old ways" is also doubtful.

I think the problem we have is that Jordanes mentioned that the Goths came from Scandinavia and that burial rites inspired by Scandinavian ones appeared in that region. The first source isn't really that reliable, because Jordanes's goal was to legitimise and glorify the Goths by dating back their existence as far back as the Romans did date back their existence. The name similarity would've certainly been an easy way to fill that gap, and not stretch it that far; at least from Jordanes's perspective.
I also don't think that the appearance of new customs from other regions is indicative of a migration from said region. The Wielbark people lived quite close to the Scandinavians, i.e. they very likely traded and communicated with each other. A slow influence was certainly possible.

What is the reason why you think that the Rugii shouldn't be on the continent? Are those the same reasons like for the Goths? According to the "Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde" (2003) the name of the Rugii is related to rye (Roggen in German), but rye didn't grow on the Scandinavia peninsula back then.


Thure is right in that name lists could be very hard (or impossible), as we have Celtic, Germanic and Baltic available and all are "taken" by other identified groups. What would the Lugians be? I am not convinced that they were 100% Germanic, but rather a mix of local and foreign influences such as Celtic, Pomeranian and West-baltic, in addition to Jastorf. Europa Barbarorum placed them in the same basket as the Vistula Veneti (and by extension the Aesti and other proto-Balts) with proto-Baltic names. But we do know that the Przeworsk at least "became" Germanic at some point as the Vandals, so them being a Lugian culture within the Germanic group could work as an easy out/compromise. In either case they should in my opinion not be Tuistic, and instead be tied to their name-giver Lugus or the by Paland0 mentioned Alces (I don't know enough to have an opinion regarding that one). This should differentiate them enough from their neighbours, and variety is always a plus as far as I am concerned. It is also a good way to portray their mixed nature without resorting to fictional name lists.

A third option is to give them a unique culture group with a namelist mixed with some Germanic, Baltic and Celtic names. Again, a compromise.
It's hard to say whether or not their Alces cult was just a manifestation of what is called "Druidic" in the game. THe usage of Lugos as federation name might be indicative for that.
 
Something helpful here maybe. The Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde has a nice map of the Oksywie culture and surrounding areas in the Younger Pre-Roman Iron Age:

XsI9r3P.jpg

Black Dot: Oksywie culture
White Dot: Przeworsk culture
Triangle: Jastorf culture and related groups
Small Dot: La Tene Culture
 
With the stream, came a new setup of the region. I'm pleased to see some changes like the Lemovians controlling the coastline. I also like that you removed the unrealistic exclave of the Cimbrians, as those tribes didn't have a strong organisation.

Yet I wonder here whether or not you'll reconsider making the Rugians and the Goths continental only. As I've pointed out there's no archeological evidence for the Goths migrating from Scandinavia to northern Poland. Even Herwig Wolfram who's a firm believer of the Scandinavian origin had to admit that there's no archeological evidence for the Goths originating in Scandinavia (2010), but still goes on building his history on top of Jordanes's Getica.
Or did you find some more recent sources about those two?

I also wonder why there are still Vandals on the map, as now we have two tags representing one and the same entitiy (Lugians + Vandals). You also admitted that by giving the Lugians a Vandalian culture.


In general, I wonder what you want to do with the peninsular part of Scandinavia. There are quite a few tags that appeared far later on than anything else. E.g. the Raumaricians appear as a petty kingdom in the 6th century, when they are first mentioned by Jordanes. Or the Herulians who first appear along the coast of the Black Sea.

Germania.png
 
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So I managed finding an English source about what I've already mentioned reading in a German source. It is from 2016.
The full text is here: http://www.academia.edu/36853596/Th...ges._500BC_500AD_Vol._4_Warszawa_2016_217_255

The important part:
The mainland roots of Wielbark culture no longer raise any doubt today, especially as the funeral rite and the fur-nishing of graves deposited in sites with stone circles and burial mounds do not diverge from the local burial customs known from cemeteries with flat graves. At the same time, the relatively sudden appearance of complex stone structures in the Wielbark culture environment as an already fully formed and, at the same time, diverse phenomenon that may actually confirm the migration of small human groups from Scandinavia which, however, probably quite soon adopted the spiritual and material culture of the local people (Bierbrauer 1994: 85–87, fig. 14). But were these Goths, who brought the name of the tribe and its tradition from the Scandinavian Peninsula?

Apparently not, since the references to the Goths on the southern coast of the Baltic found in the written sources are almost half a century earlier (second decade of the 1st c.) than the emergence of the cemeteries with burial mounds and stone circles in Pomerania. Although the information recorded by Cassiodorus/Jordanes about the northern European origin of the whole Gothic nation seems to be a literary topos, perhaps it does concern a smaller group of people which sometime later entered into a tribal alliance with the Goths and their oral tradition of this people as well. At the present level of research this problem cannot be resolved conclusively. Advances in archaeological research, including progress in analysis of ancient DNA and the study of strontium isotope content, do give hope that the question of the possible pres-ence of ‘Scandinavians’, and at the same time, the role they might have played within Wielbark culture societies, may be understood better in the years to come.
 
Not gonna reply to everything but thats cool. Huge strides have been made on germania by pdox but the saxons are still very anachronistic. Maybe that will change in later builds too. In general they seem to have adapted much of this thread which i am happy with.

Regarding the goths it now seem we are generally in agreement : small groups left scandinavia and mixed with the locals on the southern baltic coast, which explains some of the changes in archaeology we know. This is all outside the games time frame though. So the only question that remains is: what is in a name?

I wont ignore the complete similiarity bettween goths and local names in southern scandinavia. The likelihood that such similar names develop in paralel but in so close proximity is, well, very low. So instead of beating the horse on goths = scandinavian, is there evidence for a reverse migration which could spread the goth name to southern scandinavia? I dont know and have never heard of such a thing, but i think it would be required to explain the etymology. If there is we can lay this all to rest.