Brainstorming Question: Alien Timekeeping without Sunlight

[GregoryTheGreat]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but a moderator said that I should post it in the general AAR board.

I've been brainstorming details about the alien civilization for my next Stellaris AAR and one area where I haven't been able to solve a conundrum is what they would use as the basis for their timekeeping and was wondering if anyone here might have ideas.

The species evolved on a world orbiting trinary stars, where the layers upon layers of leaves from the planet's miles-tall mega-trees consume all of the light before it reaches most of the life on the world, including the civilized species. Consequently, I don't think there would be readily discernable difference between day and night for most species on the planet, and even seasons might not be particularly distinct, so marking years might not be readily important to them either. Using astronomy to measure time by the passage of stars and planets is right out for the first few millenia of civiliation, due not only to the difficulty of piercing the treetops, but the fact that the species doesn't have eyes to see them.

Yet, timekeeping is generally important for advanced societies to synchronize events, particularly in the efficiency demanded by an industrialized society--and they have the Thrifty trait so they definitely value such efficiency.

So, does anyone have any ideas what could they use as a reference to start standardizing timekeeping?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Fungal plants that live among the the roots of the large sun-absorbing trees. Once every "day" they admit a certain smell as they exhale spent air, and before they inhale fresh air for the coming "day". The average length of the exhalation can be a sub-unit of time similar to an "hour".

 

[RossN]

Perhaps gestation? Human pregnancies have a common timeframe for various events and even if it various a lot with individual women there are still useful 'signposts' - for instance quickening normally coming at 18–20 weeks.

Obviously it is a lot less precise as a measure of time but it might at least be a start for your civilisation.

 

[stnylan]

Ok as far as longer time is concerned, unless they are in a more equatorial area, they would have a sense of seasons by changing environmental circumstances that would even reach them on the forest floor. Rainy season, cold season, hot season, or things like that. Not very precise, but I think it means from a relatively early point in their development they would be aware of time and how matters change from one thing to the next.

Second point is something like @Mr. Capiatlist - observing the natural rhythym of the rest of their environment, but in this particular case the tree-analogues. Given they will be exposed to sunlight and presumably have a process analogous to photosynthesis they will have a diurnal cycle that other lifeforms could copy, and in due course divide. Remember the concept of precise hours is actually quite a recent invention in human history - part of which is also technological. Until you have reliable technology for easily measuring smaller units of time, people simply (and quite easily) get by with morning, noon, afternoon, evening, and so on.

Then there are their own natural cycles as @RossN suggests.

What I would say is that, as and when the species first emerges from the ground-leaf layer, and then especially once they rise up to the canopy above them, their society is going to undergo transformations much more massive than such things on earth. Think of how wrenching Kopernican theory was for the Christian world, or Galileo, or Darwin. However revolutionary their theories and discoveries were, they were still all part of existing areas of study. Astronomy in our society goes back millenia after all, as does a study of the natural world. However, when the fungus rise to the canopy they will see the suns for the first time, and the stars perhaps (depending on the precise configuration of the three suns) - and everything they supposed before will be absolutely wrong. Think of the subterranean civilisation event chain in game - something like that.

And that, I think, proffers so many tempting opportunities for the backstory

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Another point, and this is coming from someone who spends a lot of time writing or critiquing writing that can often fall down the "world building" chasm: short, sweet, and easy to digest - like desserts, world building should improve the story. If it doesn't, ignore it.

Not all questions need answers.

Not all answers have questions.

 

[stnylan]

As a coda to the above, sometimes it is important for you to build the world to get an idea of how the species works. But that you don't have to show the workings. The workings will come out in the telling of the tale of the species, by making that telling have greater verisimillitude.

To give an example I believe that as C J Cheeryh was creating her Alliance-Union universe she worked out the precise chronology of the settlement of humanity across the stars, with lots of detail of which ship was where at a given time and whatnot. However, none of that is shown directly in any of the novels, and only hinted at occasionally here and there. Later she did publish some of that on her website, but in the stories themselves it was buried deep. However, because she put the effort into the worldbuilding the Alliance-Union universe feels very compelling. It hangs together.

 

[GregoryTheGreat]

Fungal plants that live among the the roots of the large sun-absorbing trees. Once every "day" they admit a certain smell as they exhale spent air, and before they inhale fresh air for the coming "day". The average length of the exhalation can be a sub-unit of time similar to an "hour".

This got me thinking that the whole gas composition of each layer of the forest would shift over the course of the day and that might be noticeable, so they could still detect the cycle.

Perhaps gestation? Human pregnancies have a common timeframe for various events and even if it various a lot with individual women there are still useful 'signposts' - for instance quickening normally coming at 18–20 weeks.

Obviously it is a lot less precise as a measure of time but it might at least be a start for your civilisation.

They're parasitic fungi whose larval/fetal form has a variable development period, so basing it on the species themselves would work--but the biological rhythms of their host species would, particularly after the hosts are domesticated and host ownership becomes the earliest source of wealth (think cattle ownership for humans,) so that could become the basis for old financial calendars (but the origins would be rendered vestigial once they start vat-growing them instead.)

Ok as far as longer time is concerned, unless they are in a more equatorial area, they would have a sense of seasons by changing environmental circumstances that would even reach them on the forest floor. Rainy season, cold season, hot season, or things like that. Not very precise, but I think it means from a relatively early point in their development they would be aware of time and how matters change from one thing to the next.

Second point is something like @Mr. Capiatlist - observing the natural rhythym of the rest of their environment, but in this particular case the tree-analogues. Given they will be exposed to sunlight and presumably have a process analogous to photosynthesis they will have a diurnal cycle that other lifeforms could copy, and in due course divide. Remember the concept of precise hours is actually quite a recent invention in human history - part of which is also technological. Until you have reliable technology for easily measuring smaller units of time, people simply (and quite easily) get by with morning, noon, afternoon, evening, and so on.

Then there are their own natural cycles as @RossN suggests.

What I would say is that, as and when the species first emerges from the ground-leaf layer, and then especially once they rise up to the canopy above them, their society is going to undergo transformations much more massive than such things on earth. Think of how wrenching Kopernican theory was for the Christian world, or Galileo, or Darwin. However revolutionary their theories and discoveries were, they were still all part of existing areas of study. Astronomy in our society goes back millenia after all, as does a study of the natural world. However, when the fungus rise to the canopy they will see the suns for the first time, and the stars perhaps (depending on the precise configuration of the three suns) - and everything they supposed before will be absolutely wrong. Think of the subterranean civilisation event chain in game - something like that.

And that, I think, proffers so many tempting opportunities for the backstory

Good points. The seasons might still be detectable due to trickle-down effects from how the trees react to them. It also occurs to me that due to the (improbable and randomly generated) structure of the trinary system, their degree of exposure to the effects of different suns over a variable course of time would shift, which would likely further complicate their "year" structure and might've actually spurred the basics of mathematics for them in the same way that astronomy did for humans.
As for discovering new layers, they probably won't go full Krikket, but I'm definitely thinking that the discovery of things beyond the canopy would represent a massive shift to them.

Another point, and this is coming from someone who spends a lot of time writing or critiquing writing that can often fall down the "world building" chasm: short, sweet, and easy to digest - like desserts, world building should improve the story. If it doesn't, ignore it.

Not all questions need answers.

Not all answers have questions.

As a coda to the above, sometimes it is important for you to build the world to get an idea of how the species works. But that you don't have to show the workings. The workings will come out in the telling of the tale of the species, by making that telling have greater verisimillitude.

To give an example I believe that as C J Cheeryh was creating her Alliance-Union universe she worked out the precise chronology of the settlement of humanity across the stars, with lots of detail of which ship was where at a given time and whatnot. However, none of that is shown directly in any of the novels, and only hinted at occasionally here and there. Later she did publish some of that on her website, but in the stories themselves it was buried deep. However, because she put the effort into the worldbuilding the Alliance-Union universe feels very compelling. It hangs together.

Thanks for the tip. I can certainly see that as an easy trap to fall into.
I'll keep this to the implicit backstory. I just wanted to have firm ideas in mind to consider the implications for other parts of their society as it comes up. (Hmm. Unfortunately, there's probably not a good way to do appendix posts for AAR's.)

 

[stnylan]

(Hmm. Unfortunately, there's probably not a good way to do appendix posts for AAR's.)

Well, you can always do some additional posts with more background material interspersed throughout the AAR. Explain in your introductory post what your intention is, and the clearly title and threadmark them to distinguish them from the "story" posts. I can guarantee some people will find them interesting.

Edit: Not sure if you have ever read Cyteen by C J Cherryh, but she does something similar in there. The book has a number of additional sections which are absolutely not necessary to read for the main story, but do fill out the world

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Thanks for the tip. I can certainly see that as an easy trap to fall into.
I'll keep this to the implicit backstory. I just wanted to have firm ideas in mind to consider the implications for other parts of their society as it comes up. (Hmm. Unfortunately, there's probably not a good way to do appendix posts for AAR's.)

World building is an extremely easy trap to fall into, and one that has often sunk a budding writing career. It probably contributes to my own inability to finish AARs and the slowness at which I write my novels.

If you want an example of doing appendices, I had "Extras" when writing my old Prussian Mega-Campaign (Example OP from the CK portion).

 

[Arnulf Floyd]

I know as world building is tedious, frustrating and hard, but I construct world of my novel before writte novel, same thing will happens with AARs

 

[Tom D.]

If you want an example of doing appendices, I had "Extras" when writing my old Prussian Mega-Campaign (Example OP from the CK portion).

I just checked the OP of your AAR to go to one of those Extras and some of the first links direct to the EU4 page on ParadoxPlaza for some very weird reason. I know it's nothing you did but I found it so funny/weird that I wanted to share it.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

I know as world building is tedious, frustrating and hard, but I construct world of my novel before writte novel, same thing will happens with AARs

The problem isn't that world building is tedious, frustrating, or hard. It can be. It isn't always. The problem is that without practice (practice which AARs are great at giving) its hard to balance how much world building is the right amount for what you're creating.

For example, the world building I've done for my novels is mostly focused on the things I'm most interested - languages. I do a lot of conlanging for my world, almost none of which actually fits into the story. Like here's a poster I made for a soccer team in one of the cities where half of one book (out of four) takes place:

Want to know how much of that is applicable to one half of one quarter of a novel?

The color scheme. Two characters go to a match for half a chapter to set up a conflict. Other than that, nothing above applies, really. It was just a distraction and was a project I worked on as part of my sports branding side-gig I've been working on starting up and also make me feel like I hadn't wasted my time conlanging and neographing.

I just checked the OP of your AAR to go to one of those Extras and some of the first links direct to the EU4 page on ParadoxPlaza for some very weird reason. I know it's nothing you did but I found it so funny/weird that I wanted to share it.

Ah, yeah... they're from before the forum shift when the URL changed. Damn.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

Association of the civilization calendar with the seasons, linking it to the bigger mega-tree cycle (in the 497th flowering of the One Tree, thus spake the King. Barring that, they'll probably date events comparing them to one particular family's generations (maybe the king's family, maybe the high priest's...) Other ways could involve counting the tides (if there are large bodies of waterk, ascribing them "cycles" so it doesn't become "on the 67,987,545th tide, thus spake the king").

 

[ben_mit_b]

What about making them hypersensible to the magnetic field of their planet, which is influenced by the three suns and the rotation of the planet around these as well as the self-rotation? There should definitely be some kind of rhythm associated with that, which can be used for time measuring.

It may be their equivalent of sunlight and they could surely have invented some kind of "clock" based on that.

Also, a moon could help with bringing a regularity to all that.