Yamato class battleships vs anyone

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Cruise missiles and anti ship missiles are not designed to deal with battleship grade armored plates. They're designed for modern day ships that at best have a light cruiser level of protection

You state a true fact.

However,

If you want to argue Raytheon can create a missile which can fly down an airshaft and decimate an entire underground fortified complex, but can't figure out how to make a warhead capable of penetrating and disabling a WWII era battleship; good luck.

BB-62, US New Jersey, the most decorated ship in the history of the US Navy, is more than a match for Yamato if you were playing World of Warships (which is the only place this entire thread makes sense) and the programmers merely enabled the gorgeous radar-directed fire-control system Iowa class ships possessed in World War II. If you give the USS New Jersey her full suite of upgrades when she was finally decommissioned a few years ago; this is what happens. Musashi MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT, detect the drone swarm that will encircle it and light up four to six target areas on the ship using lasers. Lookouts will report streaks of smoke approaching the ship, and a half dozen ASW missles will slam into Musashi and hurt her in so many ways. The turrets will all have been hit. The bridge on the superstructure will be a gaping hole, and I'm sure they can find another soft spot or two to damage. Back in the war room on the Black Dragon (named so because its dark blue paint job makes it look black at night), US damage control will use their drone swarm to assess where Musashi is hurt, and either send in a few more well placed missles, or begin firing their Mark VII's over the horizon using satelite based fire control system to hammer Musashi into the sea like a sniper shooting a motionless deer. Musashi will never see New Jersey.

 

[Husein]

You state a true fact.

However,

If you want to argue Raytheon can create a missile which can fly down an airshaft and decimate an entire underground fortified complex, but can't figure out how to make a warhead capable of penetrating and disabling a WWII era battleship; good luck.

BB-62, US New Jersey, the most decorated ship in the history of the US Navy, is more than a match for Yamato if you were playing World of Warships (which is the only place this entire thread makes sense) and the programmers merely enabled the gorgeous radar-directed fire-control system Iowa class ships possessed in World War II. If you give the USS New Jersey her full suite of upgrades when she was finally decommissioned a few years ago; this is what happens. Musashi MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT, detect the drone swarm that will encircle it and light up four to six target areas on the ship using lasers. Lookouts will report streaks of smoke approaching the ship, and a half dozen ASW missles will slam into Musashi and hurt her in so many ways. The turrets will all have been hit. The bridge on the superstructure will be a gaping hole, and I'm sure they can find another soft spot or two to damage. Back in the war room on the Black Dragon (named so because its dark blue paint job makes it look black at night), US damage control will use their drone swarm to assess where Musashi is hurt, and either send in a few more well placed missles, or begin firing their Mark VII's over the horizon using satelite based fire control system to hammer Musashi into the sea like a sniper shooting a motionless deer. Musashi will never see New Jersey.

What if Prinz Eugen had better aiming system and fought the Hood? Nothing. PE would damage radar masts and such but inflict no significant structural damage. Yamato can shrug off 16 inch shells in a similar manner that Hood could shrug off Eugen. It's the same level of disparity when it comes to armament and armor.

Can Raytheon design it? Sure it can. Just chuck a nuclear torpedo at it. Though designing an entire class of weapons to deal with just a single target means that you already caused significant damage to the enemy merely by forcing them to create a response.

But the main facts are that the missiles in use nowadays don't have the punching power of a WW2 era ship. Probably an equivalent to a heavy cruiser HE shell in terms of damage.

 

[Narwhal]

Doubtfull, never bring a battleship to a swordfight like they say.

OK, but would the Yamato win against the FlederMaüs ?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

OK, but would the Yamato win against the FlederMaüs ?

The Fledermaus could land on the ship and the last thing you want on a warship are roaming tanks on your deck.

 

[lila-laune-bär]

OK, but would the Yamato win against the FlederMaüs ?

Hm. Depends on the environment. The Fledermaus should be able to outmanouver the Yamato in the troposphere but in the stratosphere and beyond the Yamato would be in her natural habitat. In such a scenario I don't see any chance even for a division of Fledermaus, sorry.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

What if Prinz Eugen had better aiming system and fought the Hood? Nothing. PE would damage radar masts and such but inflict no significant structural damage. Yamato can shrug off 16 inch shells in a similar manner that Hood could shrug off Eugen. It's the same level of disparity when it comes to armament and armor.

Can Raytheon design it? Sure it can. Just chuck a nuclear torpedo at it. Though designing an entire class of weapons to deal with just a single target means that you already caused significant damage to the enemy merely by forcing them to create a response.

But the main facts are that the missiles in use nowadays don't have the punching power of a WW2 era ship. Probably an equivalent to a heavy cruiser HE shell in terms of damage.

A nuclear torpedo is the only modern weapon that can sink the Yamato?

Have a nice day, I'm done.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Take this you puny cruise missile Iowa.

 

[Husein]

A nuclear torpedo is the only modern weapon that can sink the Yamato?

Have a nice day, I'm done.

As a single weapon in the current arsenal yes. Guess you could throw bunker busters at it too.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

What if Prinz Eugen had better aiming system and fought the Hood? Nothing. PE would damage radar masts and such but inflict no significant structural damage. Yamato can shrug off 16 inch shells in a similar manner that Hood could shrug off Eugen. It's the same level of disparity when it comes to armament and armor.

Eugen almost certainly had a better fire-control than Hood. The former was fitted with similar system as the modern German battleships, while Hood's was still centered around the WW1 era system pending her modernization. There is also a theory that it was Eugen that sunk Hood (by penetrating Hood's torpedo stowage), but it seems impossible since Eugen wasn't using armour-piercing shells according to her gunnery officer's AAR (and I do not belive in the torpedo stowage theory anyway).

Regardeless, Yamato vs. 16"/50 and Hood vs. German 8" are not comparable at all. Iowa class fires a 1225 kg AP shell that penetrates 664 mm at 9150 meters, Eugen fires a 122 kg AP shell that penetrates 240 mm at 9500 meters, or 36% as much. Even equalized for range it's probably a good bet these figures are not exactly comparable, but they should be indicative enough. Hood's maximum belt thickness was about 75% of Yamato. Eugen vs. Baltimore class heavy cruiser would be more comparable.

It was a very potent 16" gun, firing the second heaviest shell used on a battleship. When US designed a ship that was to be conventionally protected against it (which does not mean absolutely immune, but immune in the citadel within certain range, above which the deck would become vulnerable and below which the belt would become vulnerable) they ended up with a ship, the Montana, that had quite comparable protection to Yamato.

But the main facts are that the missiles in use nowadays don't have the punching power of a WW2 era ship. Probably an equivalent to a heavy cruiser HE shell in terms of damage.

ASM's tend to have charge heavier than the entire shell of a heavy cruiser (of which the charge was less than 10%)

As a single weapon in the current arsenal yes. Guess you could throw bunker busters at it too.

A nuclear ASM would do it too, as would probably a conventional torpedo with a detonation under the keel.

 

[Husein]

Eugen almost certainly had a better fire-control than Hood. The former was fitted with similar system as the modern German battleships, while Hood's was still centered around the WW1 era system pending her modernization. There is also a theory that it was Eugen that sunk Hood (by penetrating Hood's torpedo stowage), but it seems impossible since Eugen wasn't using armour-piercing shells according to her gunnery officer's AAR (and I do not belive in the torpedo stowage theory anyway).

Regardeless, Yamato vs. 16"/50 and Hood vs. German 8" are not comparable at all. Iowa class fires a 1225 kg AP shell that penetrates 664 mm at 9150 meters, Eugen fires a 122 kg AP shell that penetrates 240 mm at 9500 meters, or 36% as much. Even equalized for range it's probably a good bet these figures are not exactly comparable, but they should be indicative enough. Hood's maximum belt thickness was about 75% of Yamato. Eugen vs. Baltimore class heavy cruiser would be more comparable.

It was a very potent 16" gun, firing the second heaviest shell used on a battleship. When US designed a ship that was to be conventionally protected against it (which does not mean absolutely immune, but immune in the citadel within certain range, above which the deck would become vulnerable and below which the belt would become vulnerable) they ended up with a ship, the Montana, that had quite comparable protection to Yamato.



ASM's tend to have charge heavier than the entire shell of a heavy cruiser (of which the charge was less than 10%)



A nuclear ASM would do it too, as would probably a conventional torpedo with a detonation under the keel.

And Shermans stubby gun has around 100mm at 100 meters. good enough to kill a Tiger theoretically from the front. 9500m is not a realistic range for a battle like this.

Montana has the same armor as Yamato.

Explosive charge, how much penetrative power is that against 40 centimeters of hardened steel?

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

And Shermans stubby gun has around 100mm at 100 meters. good enough to kill a Tiger theoretically from the front. 9500m is not a realistic range for a battle like this.

9500 meters is admittedly fairly short, though it did happen. I did intend the range for comparative purpose between the two guns. That being said, both Japanese and Americans optimized their schemes for long range combat and their inner edge of immunity cut bit short of the kind of ranges that were usual in decisive engagements between battleships during WW2, which tended to around 20km to 10km. Theoretically extreme range engagement past 30km where the deck armour would become vulnerable would have also been possible. Yamato herself straddled US CVEs past 30km.

Explosive charge, how much penetrative power is that against 40 centimeters of hardened steel?

Zero, just like 8" contact fused HE shell. Or 18" contact fused HE shell for that matter.

 

[MCMartel]

Cruise missiles and anti ship missiles are not designed to deal with battleship grade armored plates. They're designed for modern day ships that at best have a light cruiser level of protection

Yes they can, that's nonsense. An an anti-ship HEAT missile can go through literal feet of steel, it's a bad joke.

 

[viale]

The Fledermaus could land on the ship and the last thing you want on a warship are roaming tanks on your deck.

I'm sure there were seagoing versions of the Fledermaus. Imagine adding a few skis for take of and landing on water, or a pontoon system on the wings. Then it's just a matter of time before someone figures that such a contraption might as well shoot torpedoes instead of shells.

 

[Husein]

Yes they can, that's nonsense. An an anti-ship HEAT missile can go through literal feet of steel, it's a bad joke.

It's not a tank where heat rounds will roast the crew. You have 2000 men or more to roast trough heat. You need to sink it.

 

[Easy-Kill]

It's not a tank where heat rounds will roast the crew. You have 2000 men or more to roast trough heat. You need to sink it.

Tell that to the crew of the Sheffield.

 

[Husein]

Tell that to the crew of the Sheffield.

Comparing a 4000 ton destroyer with no armor to a 70 000 tons battleship with 40 centimeters of steel plate armor. Let me clap

 

[Easy-Kill]

Comparing a 4000 ton destroyer with no armor to a 70 000 tons battleship with 40 centimeters of steel plate armor. Let me clap

The point that you failed to grasp is that it was the fire that caused much of the damage. Yes, a small explosion won't cause a lot of immediate damage, but it's not about the first order effect, but the wider second and third order effects.

There is a reason why armoured battleships became obsolete.

 

[Husein]

The point that you failed to grasp is that it was the fire that caused much of the damage. Yes, a small explosion won't cause a lot of immediate damage, but it's not about the first order effect, but the wider second and third order effects.

There is a reason why armoured battleships became obsolete.

Because the ship itself is small and "modern" with barely several rooms all of which contained flamable materials and were easily accessed by the stream

Where is that stream gonna go here and what will it inflame that can't be shut off and closed off and sealed?

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Where is that stream gonna go here and what will it inflame that can't be shut off and closed off and sealed?

The topmost deck, for one. Also the source of air intake for the areas below the armoured deck. Kirishima had one hour fire there after being pummeled by Washington and had to evacuate the engine rooms since they were being drawn full of smoke. In Yamato the secondary battery and tertiary battery (they only splinter protection) and deflagration of their ready ammunition, and possibly a hit in the seaplane hangars or their avgas stores would be prime fire hazards. The crew quarters, the ship's stores (Japanese still used lot of wooden boxes for storage as I understand it), machine shops etc. are also outside the citadel.

As far as shut off and closed off and sealed goes, British battlecruisers at Jutland had this feature in their main battery ammo supply. But as it turns out they were not sealed when it counted, a flash fire resulting from deflagration of propellant in the turret reached the propellant magazines and blew the ships up. Japanese seem to have been quick to flood threatened magazines, but it does illustrate the risk of human error in all of this. Or how watertight doors were being forgotten open or how Prince of Wales was sunk due to damage control error that resulted flooding from torpedo that hit outside the citadel to spread into the citadel and sink the ship.

 

[pithorr]

First of all, if I was USS Iowa commander, I'd just avoid close contact with Yamato till dusk, then approach under cover of darkness and execute her using the superior fire control system allowing accurate shelling at night.