Relationship between HRE, Latin Empire and the Papacy

[ThaHoward]

A question that I have is what were the dynamic between the Holy Roman Empire and the Latin Empire (Empire of Romania) and also between the Papacy and the Latin Empire.

Afterall according to Latin doctrine of the time there could only be one Empire. The HRE was the true successor to the Roman Empire in their eyes. How was the creation recieved by said parties? Did the Papacy see them as another continuation of the Roman Empire and defender of Christendom, a more acceptable servant than both the HRE and ERE or were the Latin Empire frowned upon as the Fourth Crusade were by the Pope?

 

[Henry IX]

Once it was formed the Latin Empire was seem as a good thing by the Papacy, as it was seen as way to bring the Orthodox church back under Papal control.

As a very broad generalisation, this was a period of intense conflict between the HRE and the Papacy. A major part of the support for the Papacy during the conflict came from the Northern Italian republics, and so the HRE tended to be opposed to their interests, and this included the Latin Empire.

 

[Rubidium]

The Latin Empire (as a real thing, rather than as the nominal overlord of various de facto independent states in Greece) was also sufficiently short-lived that a lot of the direct interactions were shaped by the personalities involved.

Innocent III was somewhat ambivalent. He had excommunicated the Fourth Crusaders, but accepted the establishment of the Latin Empire once the first reports of the capture of Constantinople came in (reports by the victorious crusaders, which tended to gloss over the atrocities as much as possible), but became disillusioned once more information came around. More broadly, he was most concerned with relieving the Crusader states in the Holy Land, and viewed the Latin Empire as acceptable only to the extent that it was a fait accompli, and hopefully could provide a base for future crusaders to actually make it to the Holy Land.

After his death, his successors tended to be much more favorably inclined to the Latin Empire, even as it turned out to be a hindrance to defending the Levant (as plenty of would-be crusaders diverted to Constantinople instead).

The Papacy and the HRE spent almost the entirety of the Latin Empire's existence in open conflict over their completing claims in Italy (both northern Italy, but also Sicily, which was both a Hohenstaufen kingdom and a papal fief), featuring excommunications, wars, rebellions, kidnappings, depositions and general unpleasantness.

 

[demanvanwezel]

as for relations between the latins and HRE I guess it would remain the same as between the byzantines and the HRE before

thry both didn't acknowledge the other as emperor refering to them as king of the greeks and king of the germans if they had to converse

 

[Herbert West]

Paging @Abdul Goatherd

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Paging @Abdul Goatherd

Oy vey. Haven't bee poking in this era for a while.

IIRC, Pope Innocent III was delighted with the conquest. The excommunications were a formality - they had deviated from their vows, so it had to happen. But the Crusaders were all quickly absolved.

The problems only began when details of the partition of the spoils emerged and the pope didn't get his "share". As you can imagine, the Byzantine Church had vast amounts of property in and around Constantinople. But the Crusaders split the church property among themselves, without consulting him.

This outraged the pope. It was church property and should have fallen to the pope to determine its fate.

The problem is the Pope had no leverage. Having already absolved the Crusaders, there were no grounds to excommunicate them again. This is where the discovery of "atrocities" was so useful. Drumming up new accusations was a way the pope could bring pressure to bear on individual Crusaders, and get them to cough up their stolen church property. And prod them all to get moving along to Jerusalem.

So this whole "atrocities" thing should be taken with a grain of salt. The pope was shocked - shocked! - to find atrocities had gone on.