Did France have the industry to outproduce Germany in ww2?

[Sunforged General]

If the German invasion of France had been stalemated, and the war turned into an attritional one, would France have outproduced Germany and won? I ask because in 1940, France had more tanks, trucks, Artillery, and Warships than Germany. So I take this as evidence that the French industry was capable of outproducing Germany. This doesnt even count the immense resources the British Empire could put into the war to help the French.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

I ask because in 1940, France had more tanks, trucks, Artillery, and Warships than Germany. So I take this as evidence that the French industry was capable of outproducing Germany.

For artillery and naval units the fact that French had been arming for significantly longer time (since before WW1, effectively) played a significant part of that. For tanks, Germany actually deployed 2,659 tanks and French 3,193 of which over 400 were hopelessly obsolete Renault FTs and further more would have been tanks completed before 1936, so there too they were capable of deploying more only due to use of older designs.

 

[Kovax]

Over 400 of the French tanks were hopelessly obsolete Renault FTs, but hundreds of the German tanks were hopelessly obsolete Panzer Is, and the Panzer IIs weren't exactly amazing in comparison to many of the French light tanks. Then there were the few hundred Char B1 bis heavy tanks included in those French numbers to consider, which badly outclassed the German tanks in terms of armor, although they had some limitations due to the small 2-man turrets forcing the commander and gunner to do what amounted to the work of 3 people in a combat situation.

Basically, Germany cannibalized its civilian production of things like trucks, trains, cargo ships, and automobiles in order to build that superiority in artillery (and HEAVILY supply them with ammunition), and at least be competitive in tanks. In the short term, Germany could out-build France. In the long run, it couldn't maintain that pace before the heavily overburdened and neglected transportation sector broke down under the strain and could no longer support that level of industry. The lack of transportation later bit them severely when they tried to stretch their weakened logistical reach deep into the Soviet Union.

 

[Narwhal]

The "400" (in reality, >500, plus >100 in colonies that are sometimes counted in France vs Germany comparaison) Renault FT were hopelessly obsolete, whereas the Panzer I were "only" obsolete. You can do something of an outgunned, slighly under-armored Panzer I that goes at >30 km/h. You can't do anything with an outgunned, almost unarmored FT17 that goes below 10 km/h.

French production in planes & tanks were divided in litteraly hundreds of small manufacturers with little optimisation. To take only famous example, the Dewoitine 520 - probably the best French fighter of 1939-1940 and the only one able to match what the Germans had, took after optimisation 7 000 to 8 000 man-hours/plane to made (Me-109 : <4 000 man-hours) and it was produced along many other models of planes that were totally obsolete in 1940 already, but stopping production was not politically feasable.

France could have matched Germany industrialy, but it would have taken a couple years at least to optimize.

 

[Kovax]

The "400" (in reality, >500, plus >100 in colonies that are sometimes counted in France vs Germany comparaison) Renault FT were hopelessly obsolete, whereas the Panzer I were "only" obsolete. You can do something of an outgunned, slighly under-armored Panzer I that goes at >30 km/h. You can't do anything with an outgunned, almost unarmored FT17 that goes below 10 km/h.

What exactly does a Panzer I do if it encounters an FT17? Its 8mm machineguns can't hurt the French tank, so all it can do is run away. An anti-tank rifle will easily put holes through the armor of a Panzer I just as easily as through an FT17. The FT can at least fire a small explosive round against enemy infantry positions. Less obsolete than the FT17, perhaps. More useful on a 1939 battlefield, probably not. That's why most of them were later converted into self-propelled artillery or tank destroyers, and the rest used only for training purposes and backwater garrison duty.

The rest of your post about production optimization I agree with. France was not set up to produce war materials at a wartime pace, Germany was. Given time, Germany would eventually have had to reduce its pace due to several major factors (some of which were historically band-aided by the conquest and subsequent use of French industry and transportation), while France could have increased its production considerably, outpacing Germany's faltering industry.

 

[Herbert West]

What exactly does a Panzer I do if it encounters an FT17? Its machineguns can't hurt the French tank, so all it can do is run away. Less obsolete, perhaps. More useful on a 1939 battlefield, probably not.

Operational speed 30 khm: encircle the F17 tanks support units, cut them off, starve the tank out.

Comparing these two tanks head on is a fools errand, as their operational, and tactical, uses different completely.

 

[Narwhal]

What exactly does a Panzer I do if it encounters an FT17? Its 8mm machineguns can't hurt the French tank, so all it can do is run away. An anti-tank rifle will easily put holes through the armor of a Panzer I just as easily as through an FT17. The FT can at least fire a small explosive round against enemy infantry positions. Less obsolete than the FT17, perhaps. More useful on a 1939 battlefield, probably not. That's why most of them were later converted into self-propelled artillery or tank destroyers, and the rest used only for training purposes and backwater garrison duty.

The rest of your post about production optimization I agree with. France was not set up to produce war materials at a wartime pace, Germany was. Given time, Germany would eventually have had to reduce its pace due to several major factors (some of which were historically band-aided by the conquest and subsequent use of French industry and transportation), while France could have increased its production considerably, outpacing Germany's faltering industry.

Exactly what Herbert West said.
If a Panzer I alone for some reason encounters a FT17, it reverses and go somewhere else. Same if it meets most of what the French had (B1Bis, R35, H35, D2). What can the FT17 do ?
The Panzer I has anti-infantry weapons, if it is facing a tank something went wrong. The only thing it has to avoid is a Somua S35 or a Panhard 178 - or rare stuff like AMC35.
If the FT17 meets any other German armor than a Panzer I, it is toast.

But the Panzer I doesn't have to be alone. With its speed, it can follow & support heavier tanks like Panzer II or Panzer III. Meanwhile, if you mix FT17 with anything else, then you have a tank unit with a speed of 9 km/h and an operational range of 60 km.
So back to your hypothetical case, if a Panzer I encounters for some reason a FT17, it will reverse and then the other Panzer II or Panzer III nearby will destroy the FT17.

Against infantry, Panzer I (and half of the FT17) have machine-guns which kills infantry about as well or better than small explosive round, but it can also overrun said infantry and attack them from an unexpected angle. If a FT17 comes to your position well, first with its speed and operational range you know that they are coming to you so you are prepared, and at worse infantry can just flee (and abandon equipment) while cavalry (still a thing in 1940) can retreat WITH equipment.

As for using anti-tank rifles against a Panzer I, well - tough luck - the French had none, except a few hundreds given by the Brits in 1940 and that barely reached the frontline. Also, whoever is handling that Boys has better be heroic because he will be on the receiving hands of quite a large volume of machine gun after his first shoots.

Bottom-line :
- The FT17 was totally useless in 1939 - 1940 except for static defense.
- The Panzer I was obsolete but still somehow useful.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

In most German books the only tanks that gave them really a headache operationally was the British MK2 and to a lesser extent the French S35.
Unlike the British tank the S35 was vulnerable to standard Anti Tank measures, the Mathilda was impervious against it.

All other difficulties (regarding tanks) been solely tactical.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The question is what would have happened if the former King of England, acting in the role of army general, had not done a brilliant job assessing the French defenses.

And what would have happened if his report had not found its way into the German’s hands according to German sources. Edward was shocked, SHOCKED, to discover gambling in this establishment and denied the allegations of course when they became known.

Yet. Germany attacked in precisely the right way to maximize the weakness in the French lines. Almost as if Manstein unfolded the French playbook following the loss of German battle plans and reworking Halder’s offensive he knew where the French were and were not. And they were definitely not in the Ardennes at the end of the Maginot Line, the weak spot per Edwards analysis. We know what happens next, with the Scikle Cut making a fairly even contest of material and manpower into a running joke to this day.

George VI is a national treasure. But for the rest of the war Edward is a liability whose close association with Hitler is embarrassing for the British government. Especially as Wallis Simpson really wanted to be queen, and a German victory all but assured it would happen. Edward and Wallis both were charmed by Hitler during their prewar visit and loved the respect given to them by the Nazis so lacking back home.

Which results in Edward being named Governor of the Bahamas and sequestered in a backwater port under observation for the duration of the war. His adulterous wife miserable and constantly complaining about the situation in a third world British colony, bereft of the 17 carnations sent to her daily by Ribbentrop; gnawing on the bones of old plots, considered an active German agent by every Western intelligence agency for the duration.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

In most German books the only tanks that gave them really a headache operationally was the British MK2 and to a lesser extent the French S35.
Unlike the British tank the S35 was vulnerable to standard Anti Tank measures, the Mathilda was impervious against it.

All other difficulties (regarding tanks) been solely tactical.

Enter the 8.8cm aa gun in an anti-tank role. Thanks, Rommel!

 

[Sunforged General]

Enter the 8.8cm aa gun in an anti-tank role. Thanks, Rommel!

The 8.8cm AA gun is only useful in static defenses. You cant use the thing offensively since its an unarmored carriage. Even something as low caliber as a light machine gun could probably destroy a 8.8cm gun by poking holes into its barrel and chamber.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Enter the 8.8cm aa gun in an anti-tank role. Thanks, Rommel!

It wasnt Rommels invention, this application was in the manual. That said Rommel made indeed excellent use out of it.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The 8.8cm AA gun is only useful in static defenses. You cant use the thing offensively since its an unarmored carriage. Even something as low caliber as a light machine gun could probably destroy a 8.8cm gun by poking holes into its barrel and chamber.

I think this goes without saying.

However Rommel cleverly used his tanks offensively in the desert and rapidly withdrew to pull British tanks into their killing range.

And, of course, the gun is famously used in Elephant and Tiger variants a bit later in the war.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

The 8.8cm AA gun is only useful in static defenses. You cant use the thing offensively since its an unarmored carriage. Even something as low caliber as a light machine gun could probably destroy a 8.8cm gun by poking holes into its barrel and chamber.

Wrong
It was much more famous for its bunker busting capabilities then for its anti tank usage in the Wehrmacht in France. It was used heavily on the offensive.

Also the SDKZ 8 12t was used in France too with a shielded gun.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Wrong
It was much more famous for its bunker busting capabilities then for its anti tank usage in the Wehrmacht in France. It was used heavily on the offensive.

Also the SDKZ 8 12t was used in France too with a shielded gun.

I have never seen that vehicle before. Ever.

Learn something new every day!

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I have never seen that vehicle before. Ever.

Learn something new every day!

Its the Wehrmacht...... I discover new vehicles/conversions on a monthly base

That said this SDKFZ 8 is heavily modified to protect it against small arms fire. It was also rare.

This is how it normally looks and you propably have seen that one before.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Yes. The gun tractor I know well. Made a model of the tractor and the acht-acht back in my youth and made an incredibly poor diorama out of them.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Yes. The gun tractor I know well. Made a model of the tractor and the acht-acht back in my youth and made an incredibly poor diorama out of them.

I had such a model kit phase too but it also collided with my pink phase. There is a reason I like Operation Peticoat so much

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I had such a model kit phase too but it also collided with my pink phase. There is a reason I like Operation Peticoat so much

 

[Graf Zeppelin]