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Sunforged General

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Even though a civil war is starting in Russia in 1917, what would happen if the new Bolshevik government simply refused to surrender to Imperial Germany. Would Germany be forced to quit the war even earlier than it did real life? Could the Russians defend St. Petersburg/Leningrad long enough for the French, British, and Americans to force Germany to divert more forces to the west?
 
IIRC the impetus for Lenin (very controversially within the Bolshevik party) agreeing to Brest-Litovsk was because the German army at that point was threatening the rail link between Petrograd and Moscow. Probably those cities are cut off and starved until the Bolsheviks capitulate, and if they don't Russia collapses into some anarchic mess without any operating central government.
 
Having a state of war with Germany, the Russian Civil War and the independence movements of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland on its western borders would have been a disaster for the Soviet-Russia, if all these events would have been combined and occurred simultaneously.
 
IIRC the impetus for Lenin (very controversially within the Bolshevik party) agreeing to Brest-Litovsk was because the German army at that point was threatening the rail link between Petrograd and Moscow. Probably those cities are cut off and starved until the Bolsheviks capitulate, and if they don't Russia collapses into some anarchic mess without any operating central government.
Considering Germany was only about 8 months away from collapse, id imagine the Allies win on the western front, because Germany cant divert as many forces west as it did in our timeline, and the allies win before Russia completely collapses.
 
Having a state of war with Germany, the Russian Civil War and the independence movements of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland on its western borders would have been a disaster for the Soviet-Russia, if all these events would have been combined and occurred simultaneously.
We have to remember, Germany was months from collapse, the Russian front holding on evaporates their hopes of sending forces west and winning there, meanwhile the Allies likely start forcing the lines back toward Germany with American help since the German army in the west doesnt get the million man reinforcements it got in our timeline from Russia surrendering.
 
Considering Germany was only about 8 months away from collapse, id imagine the Allies win on the western front, because Germany cant divert as many forces west as it did in our timeline, and the allies win before Russia completely collapses.
Germans in the west then keep siting in their trenches instead of going for a final offensive. The war then might go for a logner time or not.
 
It actually happened.
Bolsheviks refused to make peace with Germany, in February-March 1918 Germany occupied all the territory it wanted and finished remnants of old imperial army.
Surely, Bolsheviks could try to resist more, but nothing stopped Germans from occupying Petrograd or even Moscow other than those territories bringing them nothing in return.
And for Bolsheviks it would cost their rule over Russia. Lenin wanted to surrender to Germany even earlier, without a fight at all, for example.

So, no, unless 1917 turned out way differently you would see the same outcome most likely. There was no Army and economics left to fight.
 
Surely, Bolsheviks could try to resist more, but nothing stopped Germans from occupying Petrograd or even Moscow other than those territories bringing them nothing in return.
And for Bolsheviks it would cost their rule over Russia. Lenin wanted to surrender to Germany even earlier, without a fight at all, for example.

The Germans was stopped by Soviet armed workers on the way to Petrograd, not because they didn't want to occupy Petrograd! (check wiki for that) Those territory of course would bring millions of workers and industries to them.
Later they still tried to compete with Soviet for influence in Finland and Ukraine, helping the White Finn won civil war vs Red Finn.

Lenin was willing to sign peace earlier, because he know Germans was going to lose so any Treaty with German is only temporary.
 
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The Germans was stopped by Soviet armed workers on the way to Petrograd, not because they didn't want to occupy Petrograd! (check wiki for that) Those territory of course would bring millions of workers and industries to them.
That industry was worthless to them.
It would require having both resources and logistics to make it work, millions of mouths to feed (and Petrograd wasn't self-sustainable) and put there way bigger occupation army since unlike in Belarus/Ukraine/Baltics/Poland/Finland there could be no local nationalist government or "white" politicians who would admit defeat of Russian in WWI to defeat communism, at least at this moment.
In short, it would be useless for Germans to try to win WWI, harmful even.

As for Soviet Army - it is a joke, they couldn't do anything anywhere. There is a reason why Germans took so much in such a short time, there was no Army able to compete with them. RKKA only covered Petrograd to not lose it, but it hardly had ability to defend it were Germans willing to take it.
Lenin was willing to sign peace earlier, because he know Germans was going to lose so any Treaty with German is only temporary.
He was willing to sign it earlier and btw he even ordered to not resist German Army and withdraw - because if he lost Red Army (which would be annihilated in case it tried to resist) Bolsheviks would lose power and further fall in civil war with White Army having way better chances.
He indeed considered surrender to Germany the best line of action to ensure Bolsheviks stay in power. And he did it, probably losing more after Trotsky failed to manage peace and Germans had to occupy territories. And retrospectively Lenin did everything right, saving powers for Civil war which ensued later.
Later they still tried to compete with Soviet for influence in Finland and Ukraine, helping the White Finn won civil war vs Red Finn.
Lenin surrendered it and Germany moved in their forces. Some local red armies tried to fight, but it still ended up in their decisive defeats. Germany was interested in local governments friendly to it, so it supported them. It was also a way to minimize occupation as they only needed to support them little, given that all of them had own governments, some army (as much as Germany allowed), police, etc.
There was no competition, until Germany lost WWI it held those lands under control.
 
It actually happened.
Bolsheviks refused to make peace with Germany, in February-March 1918 Germany occupied all the territory it wanted and finished remnants of old imperial army.
Surely, Bolsheviks could try to resist more, but nothing stopped Germans from occupying Petrograd or even Moscow other than those territories bringing them nothing in return.
And for Bolsheviks it would cost their rule over Russia. Lenin wanted to surrender to Germany even earlier, without a fight at all, for example.

So, no, unless 1917 turned out way differently you would see the same outcome most likely. There was no Army and economics left to fight.
The Imperial Russian army remnants still existed, even though split between White and Reds, and Petrograd had decent land and sea fortifications. The German high command did not believe they could take Petrograd quickly, and would have to lay siege to it, requiring more resources be taken from the west. Meanwhile the Americans would keep getting more powerful and eventually break the German lines in the western front.
 
The Imperial Russian army remnants still existed, even though split between White and Reds
This is plain wrong on many levels.
They weren't even close to being even, most of White supporters were officers, overwhelming amount of soldiers were either red or didn't want to fight anymore.
Moreover, whole Red Army was too weak to fight and was troubled with lack of officers, disciples and organization, especially at that time. Not to mention a lack of supplies to hold out in a war.
But even if you assume all factions work together, you would see disaster worse than 1917 - since after October Revolution Bolsheviks abolished all ranks in army and decisions were made by soldiers, with one of favourite ones being executing officers they disliked.

In short, there was Army no more.
The German high command did not believe they could take Petrograd quickly, and would have to lay siege to it, requiring more resources be taken from the west.
This is true, but why would they need it? Russia was no longer relevant at this point. Even if Germans took Petrograd, it would not give them nothing but make them upkeep it.

Lastly, there was no chance Red Army could keep fighting. White Army emerged under way less good circumstances and they took attention of whole Red Army. Germans could still relatively effortlessly take all territories they took normally and watch Russia burn in civil war, perhaps helping some factions to make it even worse for Bolsheviks.

If you really want a scenario where Eastern Front and Russia hold up, consider American troops coming to Eastern Front and delivering supplies.
 
This is plain wrong on many levels.
They weren't even close to being even, most of White supporters were officers, overwhelming amount of soldiers were either red or didn't want to fight anymore.
Moreover, whole Red Army was too weak to fight and was troubled with lack of officers, disciples and organization, especially at that time. Not to mention a lack of supplies to hold out in a war.
But even if you assume all factions work together, you would see disaster worse than 1917 - since after October Revolution Bolsheviks abolished all ranks in army and decisions were made by soldiers, with one of favourite ones being executing officers they disliked.

In short, there was Army no more.

This is true, but why would they need it? Russia was no longer relevant at this point. Even if Germans took Petrograd, it would not give them nothing but make them upkeep it.

Lastly, there was no chance Red Army could keep fighting. White Army emerged under way less good circumstances and they took attention of whole Red Army. Germans could still relatively effortlessly take all territories they took normally and watch Russia burn in civil war, perhaps helping some factions to make it even worse for Bolsheviks.

If you really want a scenario where Eastern Front and Russia hold up, consider American troops coming to Eastern Front and delivering supplies.
My position is not that the Russians can win. They cannot. My position is that if the Russians keep fighting, the Germans collapse before the Russians do, since Germany has to keep millions of men in Russia to occupy the land and fight Worker-Partisans. This means the Western Front of Germany does not get millions of men of reinforcements that happened in our timeline in 1918 due to the Russians surrendering. What this means is with American reinforcements, the Allies shatter the German lines even faster, Germany would be facing an invasion into western Germany by summer of 1918.
 
This is plain wrong on many levels.
They weren't even close to being even, most of White supporters were officers, overwhelming amount of soldiers were either red or didn't want to fight anymore.
Moreover, whole Red Army was too weak to fight and was troubled with lack of officers, disciples and organization, especially at that time. Not to mention a lack of supplies to hold out in a war.
But even if you assume all factions work together, you would see disaster worse than 1917 - since after October Revolution Bolsheviks abolished all ranks in army and decisions were made by soldiers, with one of favourite ones being executing officers they disliked.

In short, there was Army no more.

This is true, but why would they need it? Russia was no longer relevant at this point. Even if Germans took Petrograd, it would not give them nothing but make them upkeep it.

Lastly, there was no chance Red Army could keep fighting. White Army emerged under way less good circumstances and they took attention of whole Red Army. Germans could still relatively effortlessly take all territories they took normally and watch Russia burn in civil war, perhaps helping some factions to make it even worse for Bolsheviks.

If you really want a scenario where Eastern Front and Russia hold up, consider American troops coming to Eastern Front and delivering supplies.
Also your belief that the Communist Russian army did not exist or have offensive power is false, as the Bolsheviks retook Kiev in February 8th 1918. In spite of the fighting with White Russian forces.
 
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My position is not that the Russians can win. They cannot. My position is that if the Russians keep fighting, the Germans collapse before the Russians do, since Germany has to keep millions of men in Russia to occupy the land and fight Worker-Partisans. This means the Western Front of Germany does not get millions of men of reinforcements that happened in our timeline in 1918 due to the Russians surrendering. What this means is with American reinforcements, the Allies shatter the German lines even faster, Germany would be facing an invasion into western Germany by summer of 1918.

This logic doesn't hold up. Brest-Litovsk treaty was signed in March 1918. German spring offensive started in March 1918. The german 17th, 18th and 19th armies on the Western front were estabilished in late 1917 and early 1918 to organise the 50 freed divisions coming from the east. The divisions weren't freed by the treaty, but by the total disintegration of any organised resistance to the german arms in the east.

Historically, Bolsheviks were trying to do exactly what you propose. They were hoping to drag the war long enough for Germany to collapse. Not to help the rest of the Entente, but to help foster the proper proletarian revolution. According to at-the-time conventional Marxist thinking, true communist revolution had to happen in a country with an industrial economy. Russian Bolsheviks waited for german working class to rise up and overthrow the Kaiser. The two brotherly revolutionary regimes would then make white peace. Or status quo ante bellum peace. This "No war, no peace" was IIRC a brainchild of Trotsky, and it failed spectacularly. German proletariat failed to rise up in time and Bolsheviks were forced to surrender a massive piece of land to preserve their control (however tenuous) of Russian core territory.

To illustrate why any defense against Germany was unrealistic in late 1917 and early 1918, let's have a look at Petrohrad. A city of 700 000 people then. You mentioned a need to siege it. Let's try to have a look at the balance of forces.

In October 1919, after the Bolsheviks had in theory had already two years to consolidate their regime, the city was threatened by general Yudenich with about 20 000 men armed by the Brits. They had some tanks even. Petrohrad Reds were stricken by a panic and were ready to abandon the city, until Trotski personally took charge, armed every available Red supporter and railed in reinforcements from Moscow. Those desperate measues enabled the Red army in Petrohrad to grow and outnumber Yudenich's force by three to one (!). The Red army in the highest hour of need using every trick in the book and defending the most industrialized city in Russia, the very heart of its revolution where it had the most supporters, could muster some 60 000 men (well, fighters). Equivalent of four divisions. Well, that's a bit misleading, because a division implies some organised force with organic artillery and other support arms, capable of combined arms battle and of manoeuvering while keeping cohesion. These 60 000 militias were very unlikely equivalent to actual four divisons of proper troops. Some sources say Yudenich suffered losses already, so 60 000 is an optimistic estimate, it was likely less.

Central Powers had, even after the massive reshuffle westwards, 53 divisions available to launch an offensive in February 1918 (this was the advance that made Bolsheviks sign Brest-Litovsk). And the 53 divions were exhausted, and at the tail end of long supply lines - but they were properly organised and trained troops. Nothing the Reds could muster could stand against that kind of force, if it was to advance further. To illustrate the disparity further, the northern prong of the last german offensive was composed of 16 divisions. As we've seen, Reds could conceivably conjure 4 "divisions" of pathetic militia (I don't want to disparage the bravery of the men and women thus mobilized, but they were no match for a proper army). Any siege of Petrohrad would be a foregone conclusion.

EDIT:

Also your belief that the Communist Russian army did not exist or have offensive power is false, as the Bolsheviks retook Kiev in February 8th 1918. In spite of the fighting with White Russian forces.

The counter-revolutionary forces were all in all even more pathetic than the Reds in some places, that's true. But that doesn't change the fact thet Read Army was in no condition to fight against serious opposition (see Baltics, Poland, Finland...)
 
You're also overlooking the fact that Germany did keep over a million soldiers in the East anyway, in order to police the terms of Brest-Litovsk and ensure the grain and armaments shipments made their way to Germany... Brest-Litovsk was such an extreme treaty that it already hamstrung the German effort on the Western Front as a result.
 
You're also overlooking the fact that Germany did keep over a million soldiers in the East anyway, in order to police the terms of Brest-Litovsk and ensure the grain and armaments shipments made their way to Germany... Brest-Litovsk was such an extreme treaty that it already hamstrung the German effort on the Western Front as a result.
¨

Who is forgetting this fact? I believe we all in this thread are well aware of the post-Brest Litovsk commitment of Central Powers' armies in the East :)

OP postulates that continued attempts at resistance by Russia would force the Central Powers to expand this eastern force (or to keep it stronger than it was historically), thus weakening the western armies as a result. I and other posters have tried to explain, that the Central Powers had free hand to move forces westwars irregardless of what was happening in Russia proper, because there was pretty much nobody in Russia proper willing and able to continue the fight. The CPs took the bits of Russian Empire they wanted (Baltics, Ukraine, Caucasus) and left the rest to sort itself out, more or less. Disregarding some interventions on the cheap, like Finland.

One way no Brest-Litovsk could have had an impact was through Austro-Hungarian PoWs. Bolsheviks agreed historically to send them home, altogether almost a million men. But due to chaos on russian railways, it took super long for them to get anywhere. Does anyone know if any PoWs made it home in time to fight in the World War? I know some of Hungarian PoWs fought eventually for Bela Kun. But otherwise I have no idea. Were some former PoWs used as reinforcements for Austro Hungarian forces in Italy, for example?
 
Does anyone know if any PoWs made it home in time to fight in the World War?
Czechoslovak Corps (50000 equipped army made from corresponding volunterr POWs) was to be given back to Austro-Hungary, but when they realized Bolsheviks wanted to give them up and disarm them they started rebellion, which gave a momentum to Kolchak's White Army.
Also yes, Bolsheviks were so weak that they had no ability to disarm them or fight them (they later left to Czechoslovakia).
 
Czechoslovak Corps (50000 equipped army made from corresponding volunterr POWs) was to be given back to Austro-Hungary, but when they realized Bolsheviks wanted to give them up and disarm them they started rebellion, which gave a momentum to Kolchak's White Army.
Also yes, Bolsheviks were so weak that they had no ability to disarm them or fight them (they later left to Czechoslovakia).

Czechoslovak legions weren't PoWs anymore, though. They were an Entente army stranded in exile. As such, Entente struck a deal with the Bolsheviks. Czechoslovak legions were to be evacuated eastwards through Vladivostok to then continue to other still active european battlefields. Actually, during this evacuation, an incident took place. A hungarian former PoW threw a big piece of iron at a legionnaire, severely wounding him. There was a lynch, a mutiny, battle with the Soviets... no need to get into the story here.

Exactly those returning Austrian Germans and Hungarians (and other nationalities) are what I'm curious about. When did they reach home? Did they fight in the WW1 or following conflicts? And how many of them fought and on which sides?
 
¨

Who is forgetting this fact? I believe we all in this thread are well aware of the post-Brest Litovsk commitment of Central Powers' armies in the East :)

OP postulates that continued attempts at resistance by Russia would force the Central Powers to expand this eastern force (or to keep it stronger than it was historically), thus weakening the western armies as a result. I and other posters have tried to explain, that the Central Powers had free hand to move forces westwars irregardless of what was happening in Russia proper, because there was pretty much nobody in Russia proper willing and able to continue the fight. The CPs took the bits of Russian Empire they wanted (Baltics, Ukraine, Caucasus) and left the rest to sort itself out, more or less. Disregarding some interventions on the cheap, like Finland.

One way no Brest-Litovsk could have had an impact was through Austro-Hungarian PoWs. Bolsheviks agreed historically to send them home, altogether almost a million men. But due to chaos on russian railways, it took super long for them to get anywhere. Does anyone know if any PoWs made it home in time to fight in the World War? I know some of Hungarian PoWs fought eventually for Bela Kun. But otherwise I have no idea. Were some former PoWs used as reinforcements for Austro Hungarian forces in Italy, for example?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk#Lasting_effects

The treaty meant that Russia now was helping Germany win the war by freeing up a million German soldiers for the Western Front[32] and by "relinquishing much of Russia's food supply, industrial base, fuel supplies, and communications with Western Europe."