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The Heroic Champion

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May 10, 2019
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The Battle of Vercellae, The Romans did win this battle decisively, but the ancient historians list the Roman casualties at 300 dead, while the Cimbri/Germanic tribes are said to have suffered between 65,000-160,000 dead depending which ancient historian you ask. Titus Livius lists 160,000 dead, while Florus lists 65,000 dead. Even the lower figure would put the kill ratio at over 216 to 1 in favor of the Romans?!
 
I don't belive it exactly. First of all the size of the Danish hordes descending upon civilized world is possibly exaggareted for effect. The Roman casualties might have been cut by order of magnitude.

That being said, I don't disagree with the idea that ancient battles could have such lopsided result if the victorious army was successful in pursuit (see Yarmouk for one, which included a secene of Arabs driving Byzantines off a cliff). But more likely the army disintegrated and the "killed" includes large amount of "MIA"— stragglers who ran and did not regroup to form a new army. Particularly as the Romans didn't have large cavalry arm.
 
I thought due to the migratory nature of the Cimbri large numbers of non-combatants were present at this battle. Although those would have resisted and fought as well that of course might have influenced the amount of claimed casualties.
 
I thought due to the migratory nature of the Cimbri large numbers of non-combatants were present at this battle. Although those would have resisted and fought as well that of course might have influenced the amount of claimed casualties.

Same presumption here. Perhaps the fighting men were only 10% of the composition and the Romans outnumbered them easily enough. If the reast were more aking to lightly armored peasants then it could have resulted in a slaughter like that.

I guess though terain could have played a big role too, as these numbers might suggest that the Romans were in a superb tactical spot where they took out the fighting men first and later the rest piecemeal.

And yes Romans used to inflate their numbers and were very well aware of the propaganda value of writing youre own history.
 
You can assume that a Roman account on a contemporary battle or military campaign was an attempt at propaganda, political manipulation, or historical revisionism.
 
From my understanding it was very hard to kill people in battlefield conditions, Assuming that both sides was willing to fight so Roman casulties was maybe 300 dead but probably a large amount of wounded who would die later from infections or simply be unfit for military service.
 
A good rule of thumb is that ancient sources always exaggerate casualties, so likely no, the numbers doesn't fit.

Could also be, as others suggested, that the figure includes women, men, children heads of cattle, anything that can walk and crawl in the Cimbrian camp. Would definitely inflate the numbers.
 
Amazing, how the Romans could inflict more casualties on an army than it had people in it, and in some cases kill that same army again in just a couple of years. Not saying that it's TOTALLY untrue, but....
 
Amazing, how the Romans could inflict more casualties on an army than it had people in it, and in some cases kill that same army again in just a couple of years. Not saying that it's TOTALLY untrue, but....
How do you know how many people were in the army? What battle a couple of years later are you talking about?
 
Not for this specific case, but the point has been made about reports for several other battles that the armies facing the Romans may not have even matched the Roman casualty counts. Gaius Julius Caesar, for instance, was noted for stretching the truth more than a bit for his own benefit, and previous "historians" were often more concerned about entertaining the audience with a thrilling account than about historical accuracy, creating a vivid account of events around a small kernel of actual information, which itself might be questionable.

I'm also reminded of the one Assyrian campaign where they announced a great victory over (Hamath?), utterly breaking their power for all time, and then had to raise a fresh army to campaign against them the following year. Then there's the Greek account of a million man Persian army, which could not possibly have been supplied at any distance. Propaganda is nothing new. Kings and dictators have had their "glorious victories" since time immemorial, regardless of the actual outcomes.
 
To play devils advocate, the numbers work if you count literally every dead German as a casualty, and count only the Romans who literally fell in pitched battle as a casualty.

To start with, the ratio does work for a pitched battle against a surprised enemy. On the condition that the account of Rome surprising and besting their cavalry straightaway is true, it's reasonable for a prepared and organized roman army to suffer minimal losses when routing a foe. Once their cavalry is gone, anyone left is probably going to be wholly incapable of significantly harming the Roman legions. This is an army thats spent years pillaging its way around Europe, and anyone not on a horse is likely a miliary nobody by the time Marius arrives. Once their cavalry is killed (aka a few hundred dead and the rest flee) anyone left is going to be slaughtered.

So now you have this tribe intent on claiming a swathe of land to settle on, and the assumption is that they all get wiped out or enslaved. A conclusion of 100k+ total isn't unreasonable, so a figure of 60k captured and as many slaughtered isn't out of the question. Even the high estimate of 165k dead isn't impossible if there were a quarter million germans trying to hunker down in what is now northern italy.

So basically you have the actual battle with the Romans scoring maybe a 2:1 (a reasonable <500 horsemen killed) or at probably most 10:1 (a couple thousand cavalry surprised) dead. Nothing absurd. AFTER this, you have the entire populace either killed or enslaved, as Rome was adamantly opposed to their existence living freely south of the alps so none are going to spared either the sword or chains. This gets you the silly ratio by counting those civilians that died afterwards as soldiers, aka every man holding a club = combatant.
 
The numbers for the Roman army are quite credible: proconsul Quintus Lutatius Catulus would've been in command of a consular army of 20,000 men (2 legions plus an equal number of socii and/or auxiliaries), and Gaius Marius would've been in command of a larger army (after all, he was the strongman of Rome, dictator and had just defeated the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae) of 32,000 men, which again would be the equivalent of three Roman legions plus a slightly larger number of socii and auxiliaries.

What's more difficult to guess is the size of the Cimbrian army. It would've been definitively larger than Catulus' 20,000 strong army, as the Cimbri behaved aggressively towards him systematically and managed to dislodge him from several defensive positions, while Catulus skillfully avoided an open battle against them and retreated towards the direction from which he expected Marius' army to approach. Given that the traditional Roman tactic was to seek pitched battles if they were not hopelessly outnumbered, this points towards the Cimbrian army having been substantially larger than Catulus' 20,000 men.

But things changed once Catulus joined forces with Marius. The Romans stopped their retreat and immediately offered battle in an open plain, and the sources say nothing about the use of field fortifications, which means they were relatively secure of their numerical strength against the enemy. So, if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that the Cimbrian army would've been on a similar level with the combined Roman army (around 52,000 men), and to it we should add the camp followers: their women, children, slaves, elderly people, wounded, sick, etc. What proportion should we take for non-combatants versus combatants? I have no idea. If we assume a fighting force of 65,000 men (to follow Florus' numbers, and which is an unrealistically high number for a semi-nomadic people without any system of organized logistics and who carried with it a large number of "useless" mouths) and multiply it by a factor of four (which is completely arbitrary, I'm speculating wildly here), we arrive at a number of 260,000 people, which is still higher than Livius' total numbers (160,000 + 60,000 = 220,000).

EDIT: Marius was not dictator, but consul (one of his six consecutive consulships). As such, he outranked Catulus, who held the title of proconsul.
 
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What the Romans were doing was slaughtering a fleeing mass of people (after the cavalry has fled) not fighting a battle. When people are fleeing in panic they are not fighting. It is easy to butcher them wholesale in this situation. Most of the barbarian casualties were probably women, children and other non-combatants. In addition, the Romans kept good records of the number of slaves taken (they were sold and the money made up most of the general's booty) so the process for determining the casualty count was likely something like:

"How many slaves did we capture?"
"204506"
"Good. Do you think we killed or captured more?"
"There were heaps of corpses on the field"
"Cool. So like 3 time as many as we captured?"
"Maybe..."

Official report: "We killed 65000!"
 
There is other battles that claim similar loopsided results such as some during hundred years war but these resualts are based using a strong defensive position or surprising the enemy army.
 
The numbers for the Roman army are quite credible: proconsul Quintus Lutatius Catulus would've been in command of a consular army of 20,000 men (2 legions plus an equal number of socii and/or auxiliaries), and Gaius Marius would've been in command of a larger army (after all, he was the strongman of Rome, dictator and had just defeated the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae) of 32,000 men, which again would be the equivalent of three Roman legions plus a slightly larger number of socii and auxiliaries.
But were they (legions that is) at full strength? Highly unlikely.
 
But were they (legions that is) at full strength? Highly unlikely.

That's impossible to know with any degree of certainty. But just looking at the rough numbers, they seem credible, that's all. Catulus in command of a consular army-sized force is perfectly okay with the size of the armies that the Romans mobilized regularly each year for a new compaign during the Republican era; the size of Marius' force is trickier, but taking into account that he was dictator and that he'd just been able to crush the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae, it seems also quite plausible to me (he could even have had Gallic allies from Narbonensis with him to make up for the losses he could've suffered in legionaires and Italic socii).

The real problem lies in estimating the size of the Cimbrian force, both its effective number of warriors and the total numbers of the whole people, adding the non-combatants. And what I find really hard to believe is the ridiculously low number of Roman casualties, as the Cimbri did not panick and flee in the first stages of the battle; the only way such a low count could perhaps be remotely credible would be if the Roman sources counted as losses only those of Roman citizens, leaving out of the accounting the socii and allies. As for the losses of the Cimbri, who knows. We can be reasonably sure that they probably had more men than Catulus in order to force him to retreat several times, but given the sudden stop in the Roman retreat after he joined forces with Marius, I'd be willing to bet that the combined Roman army had more men than the Cimbri, and that it was Marius and Catulus who forced them into battle, with the knowledge that now they enjoyed a numerical superiority; as the Cimbri were encumbered by the non-combatants who accompanied them, they couldn't do what Catulus had done and retreat before the Romans, so probably they had been lured into a trap by the more mobile Roman forces, which now proceeded to exploit their superiority in numbers.

If I had to take a guess, I'd give the Cimbri an armed strength of between 30,000 and 40,000 men, stronger than Catulus but weaker than the combined Roman armies. If we multiply 30,000 by a factor of four (which as I said before is completely arbitrary) to account for women, children, sick and old men and slaves, we'd reach a total mass of 120,000 people, near Livius' numbers. And I'd like to know how they would've managed to feed such a horde while crossing the still snowed Alps, taking into account that Raetia and Noricum weren't exactly agricultural powerhouses at the time. The Romans, with their organized logistics, could rely not only on local resources, but also on grain carried by sea and unloaded in the Ligurian ports in their rearguard, from agricultural rich regions like Sicily, Campania or Africa. Also, the Romans wouldn't have killed all of the Cimbri: most of them (especially the non-combatants) would have been captured. Let's bear also in mind, when talking about the butcher's bill, that sick, injured and old people were of no use for the Romans as slaves, so probably they slaughtered them all en masse at the site of the battle. Taking all this into consideration, the total number of Cimbrian dead given by Florus (65,000) seems to me, in my opinion, relatively plausible.

Of the whole war between Rome and the Cimbri and Teutones, the "strange" battle is not Vercellae, but Arausio, because if the numbers of the Roman army given by the ancient sources are correct (80,000 men) and it really was a total disaster with few survivors, it's puzzling to understand how did the Romans manage to get beaten that badly, because I'm almost completely sure that even adding the warriors of both the Cimbri and Teutones, they can't have added up to 80,000 men (without a proper logistic train and long-distance supply system like the Romans had).
 
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Of the whole war between Rome and the Cimbri and Teutones, the "strange" battle is not Vercellae, but Arausio, because if the numbers of the Roman army given by the ancient sources are correct (80,000 men) and it really was a total disaster with few survivors, it's puzzling to understand how did the Romans manage to get beaten that badly, because I'm almost completely sure that even adding the warriors of both the Cimbri and Teutones, they can't have added up to 80,000 men (without a proper logistic train and long-distance supply system like the Romans had).
From what I understand the Roman armies was quite disorganized as there was conflicts between the commanders with about half the army attacking the invaders without much of a plan, got encircled and massacared meanwhile the other part of army was completely unprepared for battle and was destroyed quickly after.

Did not Romans consider the germanic people as quite capable warriors, some of their elite units was from the germanic tribes?
 
From what I understand the Roman armies was quite disorganized as there was conflicts between the commanders with about half the army attacking the invaders without much of a plan, got encircled and massacared meanwhile the other part of army was completely unprepared for battle and was destroyed quickly after.

Did not Romans consider the germanic people as quite capable warriors, some of their elite units was from the germanic tribes?

The fact is that we have very little sources about Arausio. Livius' Books 66 and 67, which deal with this timeframe, have not survived complete, only in an abbreviated and fragmentary form, in the so-called Periochae, written by an unknown epitomator at an unknown date. And then, we have references in other authors, like Plutarch (in the Lives of Marius, Sulla and Lucullus) and the later Hadrianic author Granius Licinianus (an historian and encyclopedist whose work survives only in fragments). The account of the battle of Arausio that can be found in modern sources (like the quite extensive article in the English Wikipedia) is mostly based on the reconstruction made by the great XIX century German scholar Theodor Mommsen, based on this sources amd a lot of educated guesses.

As for the individual qualities of the Germanic warriors, yes, they considered them capable warriors, but that's besides the point. For starters, it's not even sure if the ethnicity of the Cimbri and Teutones was Celtic, Germanic, or something in between (the name of the supposed "king" of the Cimbri, Boiorix, is clearly a Celtic name, while that of the supposed leader of the Teutones, Teutobod, could be of Germanic origin). They lacked the sort of political unity and organized logistics that the Romans had, and so their capacity to put in the field armies large enough to actually challenge the Romans was limited. Once they superated this political handicap in the III century CE, things began to turn difficult for the Romans, and even then what did more damage to the Romans was their own civil wars, rather than the attacks of the Germanic peoples.