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YertyL

Captain
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Jun 9, 2016
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  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
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  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
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  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
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  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
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  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  1. Carbonate Processors have a significantly decreased efficiency at 50+% atmosphere, similar to GHG factories at 25+% temperature
  2. Instead, global vegetation increases atmosphere every sol by 0.04% per 1% global vegetation.
  3. Every bush, tree and mixed tree on the map improves global vegetation every sol by a small amount proportional to its seed harvest, i.e. one mixed tree is worth as much as 20 bushes
These relatively small changes would, for me, fix several gripes I have with the current mechanics at once:
  • A breathable atmosphere seems to be the most significant "goal" of terraforming currently, but it is quite easy to achieve, and can be achieved without any vegetation; apparently, pure Co2 is breathable.
  • In contrast to this, achieving local and global vegetation is most interesting and hardest, but has very little effect. Martian vegetation is the very first tf. tech you get, but is only useful a lot later with farms. Even then, there is little incentive to invest in seed production, as you can sustain your farms with very few to no forestation plants. With this change, you would have an incentive to start on forestation plants early, and the effects of global vegetation would go beyond...absolutely nothing.
  • This would increase the interplay of the different terraforming parameters and make the process more interesting: You will need vegetation in the long run for the atmosphere, for which you need different levels of water and temperature, so there would be some trade-off between investing in more and better vegetation early, or processors/field generators later.
  • there is curently very little reason to build magnetic field generators as they can be substituted easily by carbonate processors; this way, they would have a disctinct role at 50+% atmosphere.
  • You could actually create a stable ecosystem without the need for terraforming buildings, but only after getting all the parameters high; at 100% vegetation, the stable 4% increase in atmosphere would compensate for magnetic field loss. This would create a secondary goal in the very end game: after achieving breathable atmosphere, achieve one that is sustainable without human input
  • And lastly, your method of achieving global vegetation would mostly be making your map green, instead of repeating that damn rocket project 250 times.
 
My late game is just sending rocket after rocket for 5% or 1% or something like that. That 0.00000001% from forestation or gas...it is just so small and insignificant that game would turn into a waiting game, and given terraforming is a late game and too expensive for early game ALL my terratorming end up in nukes and capturing gasses
 
Yeah Temp? Easy! Atmo? No problem! water? Simplicity itself!

Plant life, the only actual simply* self replicating element of the equation? Not only does it seem not to spread, but the blooms at 30/60/90% don't seem to do anything and when I eventually got to 100% half my actual map was still barren desert.

* The feedback loops are complex and stability elusive, but warmer temps should be raising water levels>But also increasing the rates of weathering, so you should end out seeing several loops of GHG increase>more energy in system ore chemistry happens accelerating chemical weathering>weathering pulls CO2 out of air >results in freeze.

Then there's the issues of plant life being another carbon sink, and of ice albedo's effect on cooling cycles and thermal balance.

It does feel from my background in the earth sciences ad drawn in for love of the poetry in those emergent feedback, rather like someone has read the music but never heard it played and is now trying to dance to it.
 
I am not sure about the other things but your 100% spot on, with vegitation, that is the whole reason we want it, so we can breath, you would think vegitation and would have some sort of complementry effect with other things like atomsphere.
 
Yeah Temp? Easy! Atmo? No problem! water? Simplicity itself!

Plant life, the only actual simply* self replicating element of the equation? Not only does it seem not to spread, but the blooms at 30/60/90% don't seem to do anything and when I eventually got to 100% half my actual map was still barren desert.

* The feedback loops are complex and stability elusive, but warmer temps should be raising water levels>But also increasing the rates of weathering, so you should end out seeing several loops of GHG increase>more energy in system ore chemistry happens accelerating chemical weathering>weathering pulls CO2 out of air >results in freeze.

Then there's the issues of plant life being another carbon sink, and of ice albedo's effect on cooling cycles and thermal balance.

It does feel from my background in the earth sciences ad drawn in for love of the poetry in those emergent feedback, rather like someone has read the music but never heard it played and is now trying to dance to it.

Honest question: Would the fact that Mar's atmosphere starts at 95% CO2 and the "melting" polar caps are actually sublimating polar caps because most of the ice is actually dry ice change this at all?
 
Honest question: Would the fact that Mar's atmosphere starts at 95% CO2 and the "melting" polar caps are actually sublimating polar caps because most of the ice is actually dry ice change this at all?

YEah the caps, I just assumed what they meant by 'melt polar caps' was the residual ice under the CO2, but you are correct that it should factor and, this is another thing teraforming should be syncopated tap tap TAP taptaptaptap TAP not tap tap tap, and should be an excuse for a lot more madcap 'oh crap' kludging fixes, because its all happening at once and oh god if we dont get the temp up we're going to loose our oceans/if we go too fast we're going to loose permafrosts in a landslide, there should be by rights a a huge spike in surface level atmospheric pressure when its now too warm to have solid CO2 (and indeed before that point adding CO2 to atmosphere via GHG release should do nothing)

Really if I was scripting it it'd be almost backwards to now. The big orbital level projects like solar reflectors, magnetic shields would come first, these are relatively simple from engineering perspective, issues of scale and not of type (Theres also a thematic issue, arriving on mars as spacetravelers, the first things done will be using space travel, trappings that are gradually discarded as the colony becomes more earthlike as well as more self sufficent)

Having established the baseline conditions, really I'd want to merge the carbonate processors, GHG factory, and add to that a complication in terms of Nitrate balance, and give us readouts for say Pressure at the mean datum, o2, Nitrogen, CO2, water vapor. Soil ferility would be driven by soil nitrates/biomass which in turn would relly on, probibly the easyest way is to import ammonia from somewhere, comet ice or the jovian moons. Almost more than water in a world like mars nitrogen levels are a bigger issue.

And this is fun because there are big questions, like, how much oxy do we want? athletes show higher performance at elevated levels, elevated levels of atmospheric o2 bring about a sense of well being in humans too, mild euphoria. Go too far it becomes toxic, and more impactfully in higher 02 atmospheres things rust and corrode faster, fires are easier to start, burn hotter and longer.

Tie that into a stall in water levels? watch your lovingly tended forest go up in smoke, see the effect of that blaze on your atmospheric chemistry. As for nitrates? an emerging biosphere is going to be on a really thin margin, an algal bloom might add more oxygen, but its going to fix a lot of those hard won nitrates and carry them to the sea bottom/ get dissolved and returned to atmo, but that takes a long time for the new balance to be found.

I'm simplifying but the point is nothing in a functioning ecology is separate, not rock, wind, rain nor plant.

Edit: My own assumption in the warming>increased water levels was less about melting polar caps, and more about liberating permafrost and surface ice, which would come with problems of suddenly lubricating faults and destabalising overlying sediments both by the sudden fluidity, and the loss of volume as water enters a liquid phase.
 
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Yeah, from you and others, plus my own limited understanding of it all, makes it sound like a more "realistic" and perhaps challenging(fun?) terraforming process would differ from the current method by do such things as:

-Requiring some of the planet anamolies to get the ball rolling (or at least pass certain thresholds)
-Nitrates, both in the Nitrogen cycle and/or the fact an Earth-like atmosphere would be 78% N2, could probably be represented in some way.
-Events that correspond with certain thresholds should impact other parameters, perhaps negatively; such as Vegetation blooms dropping temp as the plants are replacing the GHG CO2 with the very not-GHG O2.
-Paramaters should be more interlinked to represent the balance needed to advance; need enough atmosphere to raise Temperatures, which is needed to have liquid water to do much of anything with Vegetation, which needs to have one or two blooms to produce enough O2 to raise the atmosphere rating further, etc.
-Should be more terraforming-related disasters, especially if you let things go out of whack. Duststorms should not disappear with high atmosphere (as they do happen on Earth too, and while they never grow to being global, can be just as dangerous to the unprepared) but with enough vegetation, and now come with the threat of stripping topsoil, lowering soil quality. Letting Temp get too far away from water should result in hot desert conditions that come with heat waves, too much water without absorbing atmosphere or vegetation a chance at flooding, etc.
-Should be an incentive to raising water from ice comets, nuking the polar caps, and water extractors, not vaporators drawing water to fill lakes to evaporate and somehow result in more surface water.
-Getting the other three parameters right for improving vegetation to the next bloom should be the biggest challenge, and have the greatest chance at failure in a "fun" way.

Also, I didn't put it as a point, but atmosphere might be a nessisary component to liquid water too; One of the reasons surface water is unheard of on Mars is because the atmosphere is thin enough that, unless the temperature is just right, ice will sublimate into vapor and skip the water step entirely.
 
Building lakes also amounts to next to nothing when you can get much more water from expeditions. And with only 4 lake shapes I don't really want to spam them and make my map look so repetitive.
 
I love the terraforming process (having just picked this game up last week), but I'm already waiting for a "More Realistic/Involved Terraforming" mod to implement these kinds of great suggestions I've seen floating around for how to make the process both more realistic and fun.
 
My post from beta forum...

Greetings.
I'm very happy that you made Green Planet expansion. Original game is seriously lacking in endgame content and GP fixes this issue (partially). Terraforming is very expensive and time consuming, but that's ok.
I give my impressions about each terraforming component.
Atmosphere
Very interesting decision was to make this component closest to harsh reality where Mars can't support normal atmosphere. I was busy building all these magnetic field generators and magnetic shield. However, I'd wish more difficulties in this area, because in the end I just needed 3 MFGs (with amplify upgrade), 1 magnetic shield and 1 carbonate processor (with amplify upgrade) to fully stabilize Mars atmosphere. If you'd add specific rule which make atmosphere less stable in the end, I'd be very happy. Or make it unstable right from the beginning.
Temperature
This is easiest component I'd say. You just need to reach 100% and then destroy all temperature buildings. I think they need some additional functions or features. Somebody said about heating of area. It would be nice imao.
Water
Not very difficult component. Ice Asteroids and Melt Polar Caps missions are your friends. Btw, can't you make Ice Asteroids mission causing Meteor shower instead/or with Marsquake? I don't think Ice Asteroids consisting of pure ice only.
Digging lakes is almost pointless due very low effect. Also lakes need very flat surface which is not always possible. Anyway current version of lakes is purely decorative, imao. BTW, is there a possibility to have natural Mars lake near colony? I had a lot of rains, but never saw that water gathered in any sort of craters, pits etc.
Vegetation
Most difficult component. Not gameplay-wise, it's just painfully slow. After 40% your forestation plants become useless and you must wait for missions. I don't know why seeding missions have such long random pauses in between. Why we can't have 2-3 available missions in one time? I saw that only 1 time.
Terraforming thresholds
Interesting features, but some of them is seriously flawed. I know already that terraforming in game is simplified and very far from reality but why not make closest to reality as possible? Let's take a look.
Liquid water. Do you know boiling temperature of water in current Mars atmosphere? It's +6.2 degrees of Celsius. If you're just heating Mars you won't get liquid water. Never. You need more atmospheric pressure and this is main factor why we can't see liquid water on Mars now (there are some warm places on Mars already with +20 degrees of Celsius).
I'd suggest to make liquid water threshold connected to Atmosphere. Something like 10% atmosphere (boiling temperature of water with 1/10 pressure of Earth atmosphere is ~44 degrees of Celsius), 25% of temperature need to have liquid water of Mars.
Blue skies. It's just impossible to have blue skies in atmosphere with pure CO2. This threshold should be connected with vegetation which consume CO2 and give O2 in exchange.
Breathable atmosphere. It was very interesting and funny to get this threshold when I had 0 vegetation on Mars. We can't get Oxygen in atmosphere just by burning waste rock simply. Also I don't think we have steel colonists breathing with pure CO2 and other greenhouse gases. Connect this threshold to vegetation value - 30-50% would be just right.
 
Building lakes also amounts to next to nothing when you can get much more water from expeditions. And with only 4 lake shapes I don't really want to spam them and make my map look so repetitive.

There are more than 4 lake shapes. If you use the square brackets you can cycle through them. This is something that could probably use a better tooltip, I didn't realize I could do it either until someone pointed it out.
 
There are more than 4 lake shapes. If you use the square brackets you can cycle through them. This is something that could probably use a better tooltip, I didn't realize I could do it either until someone pointed it out.
What square brackets? I can't find any indication anywhere to change lake shapes :(
 
What square brackets? I can't find any indication anywhere to change lake shapes :(

Sorry, poor explanation on my part, the square brackets on your keyboard cycle through lake shapes...

However... If you are playing on console I'm not sure what the equivalent would be. Can anyone else help if that is the case?
 
Ya, I got it, I don't have an Enlgish keyboard, but it's with the keys after the numbers. I now see you can change the appearance of some buildings with this before placing them this as well, I usually just change them after building with the button in the panel.
 
Ya, I got it, I don't have an Enlgish keyboard, but it's with the keys after the numbers. I now see you can change the appearance of some buildings with this before placing them this as well, I usually just change them after building with the button in the panel.

Awesome. Lakes are the exception I guess since their footprint is different depending on their shape. Happy terraforming!