Historical+Engineering question

[TheFlemishDuck]

Well, I find it troubling that Schwerer Gustav somehow penetrated 10m of concrete when its maximum specified penetration was 7m of concrete or 1m of steel plate. And this was supposed to be at the highest elevation the gun barrel could be raised. This is on the same wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav#Ammunition

Either the Soviet fortification wasn't really 10m of concrete, or it was shoddy construction, or They somehow improved the gun to be more powerful than it was originally designed to be.

Not at all surprising, considering that 30 meters of water would excert a large amount of pressure, it would have been enough for that shell to dammage that concrete enough for pressure to do the rest, besides that the pressure might allow the force of inpact be better directed towards the concrete as opposed to air. The same would apply to earth but then to a lesser extend.

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

Well, I find it troubling that Schwerer Gustav somehow penetrated 10m of concrete when its maximum specified penetration was 7m of concrete or 1m of steel plate. And this was supposed to be at the highest elevation the gun barrel could be raised. This is on the same wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav#Ammunition

Either the Soviet fortification wasn't really 10m of concrete, or it was shoddy construction, or They somehow improved the gun to be more powerful than it was originally designed to be.

Not at all surprising, considering that 30 meters of water would excert a large amount of pressure, it would have been enough for that shell to dammage that concrete enough for pressure to do the rest, besides that the pressure might allow the force of inpact be better directed towards the concrete as opposed to air.

Plus: Nine shells were fired. Even assuming some of them missed you just need to hammer the same spot (roughly speaking) several times and it will break eventually. I guess it was a combination of all factors: Constant pressure from water, intensified effect of detonation pressure under water (that's why depth charges are so effective against subs) and several shells used.

 

[viale]

4,000 men and five weeks were needed to get the gun in firing position; 500 men were needed to fire it.[7] Installation began in early May, and by the 5th of June the gun was ready to fire.[8]

Surely, at some point in the development process of this stupidly huge gun some German general most have asked "what if we just issue these 4500 thousand soldiers boots and rifles and just forget this completely useless idea of creating the biggest gun in the world?"

I mean its insane to think how much manpower this thing just sucked up, and of the logistics of moving it along rail in various bits and pieces before reaching its destination where it has to be re-assembled. I know its every LEGO-connoisseur's wet dream to be the lead engineer on this thing but come on, the German high command cant all be LEGO-fanatics.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Surely, at some point in the development process of this stupidly huge gun some German general most have asked "what if we just issue these 4500 thousand soldiers boots and rifles and just forget this completely useless idea of creating the biggest gun in the world?"

I mean its insane to think how much manpower this thing just sucked up, and of the logistics of moving it along rail in various bits and pieces before reaching its destination where it has to be re-assembled. I know its every LEGO-connoisseur's wet dream to be the lead engineer on this thing but come on, the German high command cant all be LEGO-fanatics.

Assaulting heavy fortresses is no fun either though. The assault of the fortresses of Sebastopol in 1942 cost the Wehrmacht several divisions' worth of casualties and that was with the super heavy mortars wrecking one deep fortress after another with great success. I suspect that the generals commanding that battle would have judged the effort to man and service the super heavy mortar worth it? But I haven't read their memoirs.

Essentially you have to think of Germany as a nation with a surplus of expertise in engineering and manufacturing of heavy specialty machines. Unlike the USA, their prewar economy did not have the economies of scale to allow for true Fordism mass manufacturing in many fields of industry. So their industry still had much less mass manufacturing than the USA but more small scale specialty manufacturing workshops in which one-off or low serial number items like excavation diggers, special tractors, large size chemical process equipment or equipment for industrial forges was produced. This was the sort of industry that could produce wonders like the Heavy Gustaf but struggled to mass produce tanks until late in the war.

 

[bz249]

Assaulting heavy fortresses is no fun either though. The assault of the fortresses of Sebastopol in 1942 cost the Wehrmacht several divisions' worth of casualties and that was with the super heavy mortars wrecking one deep fortress after another with great success. I suspect that the generals commanding that battle would have judged the effort to man and service the super heavy mortar worth it? But I haven't read their memoirs.

Essentially you have to think of Germany as a nation with a surplus of expertise in engineering and manufacturing of heavy specialty machines. Unlike the USA, their prewar economy did not have the economies of scale to allow for true Fordism mass manufacturing in many fields of industry. So their industry still had much less mass manufacturing than the USA but more small scale specialty manufacturing workshops in which one-off or low serial number items like excavation diggers, special tractors, large size chemical process equipment or equipment for industrial forges was produced. This was the sort of industry that could produce wonders like the Heavy Gustaf but struggled to mass produce tanks until late in the war.

Note that mass producing tanks which you cannot supply with fuel, munition and crew does not bring much. The German aircraft production is not by miles behind that of the Allies... yet because of the limited training hours they were no match.
So not mass producing tanks was dictated by no small part by resource limitation.

 

[Sunforged General]

Surely, at some point in the development process of this stupidly huge gun some German general most have asked "what if we just issue these 4500 thousand soldiers boots and rifles and just forget this completely useless idea of creating the biggest gun in the world?"

I mean its insane to think how much manpower this thing just sucked up, and of the logistics of moving it along rail in various bits and pieces before reaching its destination where it has to be re-assembled. I know its every LEGO-connoisseur's wet dream to be the lead engineer on this thing but come on, the German high command cant all be LEGO-fanatics.

I'm sure hitlers fascination with "wunderwaffe" also played into why these impractical things got funding.

 

[Sunforged General]

Assaulting heavy fortresses is no fun either though. The assault of the fortresses of Sebastopol in 1942 cost the Wehrmacht several divisions' worth of casualties and that was with the super heavy mortars wrecking one deep fortress after another with great success.

In my non expert opinion, id rather have 1000 15cm guns than one 80cm gun. I think i've read somewhere that the resources put into Gustav could have been used to produce 1000 heavy artillery. Though your point that Germany cannot mass produce things as much as they want probably limits that gain though.

 

[viale]

Assaulting heavy fortresses is no fun either though. The assault of the fortresses of Sebastopol in 1942 cost the Wehrmacht several divisions' worth of casualties and that was with the super heavy mortars wrecking one deep fortress after another with great success. I suspect that the generals commanding that battle would have judged the effort to man and service the super heavy mortar worth it? But I haven't read their memoirs.

Essentially you have to think of Germany as a nation with a surplus of expertise in engineering and manufacturing of heavy specialty machines. Unlike the USA, their prewar economy did not have the economies of scale to allow for true Fordism mass manufacturing in many fields of industry. So their industry still had much less mass manufacturing than the USA but more small scale specialty manufacturing workshops in which one-off or low serial number items like excavation diggers, special tractors, large size chemical process equipment or equipment for industrial forges was produced. This was the sort of industry that could produce wonders like the Heavy Gustaf but struggled to mass produce tanks until late in the war.

Thank you, it makes a bit more sense then. Especially with regards to how the industry was set up. I imagine that even re-tooling factories to more streamlined manufacturing must have been a case of cost-benefit analysis with regards to Germany's lack of material

 

[MarcoRossolini]

Worth noting that Forczyk's book on the fighting in Crimea remarks that the lion's share of damage to the Sevastopol fortresses were not done by the super heavy mortars that every one obsesses over but the larger guns captured following the annexation of Czechoslovakia. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but these guns were around about 210mm as I can recall.

 

[Sunforged General]

Worth noting that Forczyk's book on the fighting in Crimea remarks that the lion's share of damage to the Sevastopol fortresses were not done by the super heavy mortars that every one obsesses over but the larger guns captured following the annexation of Czechoslovakia. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but these guns were around about 210mm as I can recall.

If 210mm guns were able to damage the forts at Crimea, then those forts cant be comparable to the Maginot Gros Ouvrages. Ouvrage Schoenenbourg took hits from 420mm siege mortars, as well as 3000 smaller artillery shells and and 160 aerial bombs, and despite all that, suffered no significant damage.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

If 210mm guns were able to damage the forts at Crimea, then those forts cant be comparable to the Maginot Gros Ouvrages. Ouvrage Schoenenbourg took hits from 420mm siege mortars, as well as 3000 smaller artillery shells and and 160 aerial bombs, and despite all that, suffered no significant damage.

The actual heavy bombardment of Schoenbourg you speak of was extremely limited in duration, lasting about 3 days. It involved few pieces of heavy ordnance, 3,000 shells of all calibers (of which only 83 apply to this conversation) and a few Stuka sorties while a light infantry division demonstrated to apply pressure and fix French forces in place while France was taken from behind.

The bombardment of Sevastopol lasts 9 months, involves a tremendous collection of heavy siege weaponry, a German infantry army assaulting individual positions and absorbing casualties, and an entire Luftwaffe bombing corps. Even then, the fortress was not taken from the front but from the rear in an amphibious operation.

The Maginot Line was a world class modern fortress. It did its job as designed. As did Sevastopol. Even so, both fell.

The problem is you are comparing apples to oranges isolating facts in this manner.

 

[gagenater]

Surely, at some point in the development process of this stupidly huge gun some German general most have asked "what if we just issue these 4500 thousand soldiers boots and rifles and just forget this completely useless idea of creating the biggest gun in the world?"

I mean its insane to think how much manpower this thing just sucked up, and of the logistics of moving it along rail in various bits and pieces before reaching its destination where it has to be re-assembled. I know its every LEGO-connoisseur's wet dream to be the lead engineer on this thing but come on, the German high command cant all be LEGO-fanatics.

This has been pointed out before, that the the Germans did't have another 4,500 soldiers, but they did have heavy construction and engineering corporations.

Even without this point though, heavy artillery does things that infantry can't. There is some balance between the two, and they aren't substitutes for one another.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

This has been pointed out before, that the the Germans did't have another 4,500 soldiers, but they did have heavy construction and engineering corporations.

Even without this point though, heavy artillery does things that infantry can't. There is some balance between the two, and they aren't substitutes for one another.

Combined Arms FTW.

 

[Sunforged General]

The actual heavy bombardment of Schoenbourg you speak of was extremely limited in duration, lasting about 3 days. It involved few pieces of heavy ordnance, 3,000 shells of all calibers (of which only 83 apply to this conversation) and a few Stuka sorties while a light infantry division demonstrated to apply pressure and fix French forces in place while France was taken from behind.

The bombardment of Sevastopol lasts 9 months, involves a tremendous collection of heavy siege weaponry, a German infantry army assaulting individual positions and absorbing casualties, and an entire Luftwaffe bombing corps. Even then, the fortress was not taken from the front but from the rear in an amphibious operation.

The Maginot Line was a world class modern fortress. It did its job as designed. As did Sevastopol. Even so, both fell.

The problem is you are comparing apples to oranges isolating facts in this manner.

One thing im curious of, is could Schwerer Gustav even hit specific targets, while at the same time being far away enough from the front lines to not get hit with counter battery fire from French Artillery. I know the German big gun probably outranges any other artillery piece, but firing at longer ranges probably makes the accuracy suffer immensely. The French forts were specifically designed to have an abstract perimeter. Defining its exact location can be problematic, so the most likely scenario we have is Gustav scoring a bunch of indirect hits which only do minor to moderate damage.

If we wish to use Sevastopol as an example, that is fine, but if it took the Germans 8 months to take it even with super heavy artillery, and it takes at least that long to break through a well manned maginot line, it is as a previous commentator said, the Germans would be playing into the hands of the French. A set piece battle, as they would have many months fore warning as to where the Germans are attacking, and have time to build more defensive fortifications behind the front line ala Kursk, as well as to move their best armies into the area.

So I will concede, Schwere Gustav may possibly be able to knock out a Gros Ouvrage, with sustained indirect fire, but that would put it at risk of being located and destroyed by the RAF. Remember, scenario is 1941, by that time Britain is outproducing Germany in aircraft. Meanwhile, any German breakthrough is simply met with more belts of fortifications and probably the best divisions France has to offer. It probably turns into another Verdun, that Germany once again loses.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I'm sure hitlers fascination with "wunderwaffe" also played into why these impractical things got funding.

Depends, The 80 cm Gustav was actually one of the smaller sized ones Krupp offered them to build

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Depends, The 80 cm Gustav was actually one of the smaller sized ones Krupp offered them to build

The bigger the gun the more limited the application. After a certain size they need to be mounted on ships.

Fun fact:

US 240mm ‘Black Dragon’s took out Anzio Annie and were accurate enough to take out an individual tank. They were formidable guns.

They were mounted on a heavy tank chassis and made into a self-propelled gun but did not arrive in Europe in time to see action.

They are currently serving as Taiwanese coastal defense artillery.