Mussolini vs the Mafia

[Sunforged General]

How effective (or ineffective) was Fascist Italy in combating the Sicilian Mafia and other crime syndicates in Italy? Clearly it didnt eliminate the mafia entirely, but how successful was it in preventing crime and curbing the power of the Mob?

 

[Greenskyguy]

I cannot remember where I read this, but I believe that I heard Mussolini mostly killed off the Sicilian Mafia. When the Americans landed in 1943, they worked with Italo-American Mafia bosses to contact some remaining Mafia cells in their invasion of Sicily. In effect, treating the Sicilian Mafia like a French Partisan cell and using their support to capture Sicily. The downside though was that this empowered the Mafia.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Mussolini visited Sicily after taking power. He was touring one town, surrounded by guards, when the local Don said 'You are with me, you do not need these police'. Mussolini rebuffed the Don's protection, and the Don told his people to go home and not listen to Mussolini's speech. His ego bruised, Mussolini called in the dogs.

A new Prefect was sent, Cesare Mori, with an order by Mussolini to control Sicily by any means necessary. "Your Excellency has carte blanche, the authority of the State must absolutely, I repeat absolutely, be re-established in Sicily. If the laws still in force hinder you, this will be no problem, as we will draw up new laws."

Mori had a very simple solution, he put everyone in jail even suspected of being a member of or helping 'The Black Hand' oppose the Fascist attempts to break the ancient law of water rights in Sicily and modernize beyond the Mafiosi-Landowner suppression of the population. Mario Puzo, the man who wrote The Godfather, wrote a very interesting book explaining the backstory of how the Mafia operated during this time in 'The Sicilian' which I can mine for some names and dates if you'd like.

And the jails began to fill, and the Mafia was suppressed for one of the few times in the island's history. But trying to get the Mafia out of Sicily is like trying to get the Catholics out of Rome; easier said than done.All this makes the Mafia the sworn enemy of Mussolini. Creating many interesting sub-points.

First, the Normandie, the largest ocean liner in the world, burns and sinks in New York Harbor under mysterious circumstances and rumors of sabotage.

The president of the United States, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, demanded something be done about this and dock security increased. His aides, knowing the true problem, asked Roosevelt who controlled the docks while he was governor of New York? Roosevelt immediately understood they'd have to cut a deal with the Mob.

First is the deal cut between OSS and Charles 'Lucky' Luciano. Luciano is the most powerful Mafia don in America before, during, and after WWII. Period. And this is despite the fact he was serving a jail sentence. Following Roosevelt's mandate that the waterfronts be protected, the US government approached Meyer Lansky - a Jew who sat at Arnold Rothstein's knee with Luciano and who was Luciano's greatest and most valuable ally as 'The Mob's Accountant' - about cutting a deal to have the Mafia control the East Coast waterfronts that they controlled anyway.

Lansky said something could probably be done, but Luciano would need to be moved to a less secure prison much closer to New York City; which was done almost immediately. In return, Luciano guaranteed there would be no dock strikes for the duration of the war, any suspicious activity would be suppressed or reported.

Secondly, when Patton lands in Sicily his OSS contacts are wearing armbands of yellow silk with an elaborate 'L' for 'Luciano' in black. The reason Patton was able to move through Sicily so quickly is 'General Mafia' was leading him through the goat paths known only to the Mafia smugglers who kept them secret from the authorities.

BTW, according to the official report, the Normandie sunk by accident. According to Luciano, Albert Anastasia 'The Lord High Executioner' of the Mob's dedicated hit squad 'Murder Incorporated', had one of his Crews sink the ship to create a threat on the docks only the Mob could handle.

Luciano is released from prison and extradited back to Italy following the war, which leaves Luciano with very hard feelings. He has Bugsy Segal whacked in Las Vegas for stealing from the mob while building the Flamingo Hotel; and Luciano and Lansky go all in on an plan to make Cuba the most decadent and oppulent destination on earth. Enter Fidel Castro and his killer friend, Che Guevara.

And, please remember, the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, SWORE to the American people where was no such thing as Organized Crime in America. And he held onto this stance until Bobby Kennedy - whose brother was elected president of the United States because the Chicago Mob stuffed the ballot boxes and gave Chicago to Kennedy - made war upon the Mob, and probably cost he and his brother his life for doing so. Why? The Mob had photos of Hoover dressed in women's clothes and engaging in very, very compromising homosexual relationships for that day and time that would cost him his career. And Hoover was all about Hoover's career.

Back to our story: When the Allies controlled Sicily, they assumed everyone in prison was an enemy of Mussolini, and they were all immediately restored to their former positions; which means the Allies put the Mafia back in business in Sicily for the duration of the war and the post-war rebuilding.

 

[Sunforged General]

Mussolini visited Sicily after taking power. He was touring one town, surrounded by guards, when the local Don said 'You are with me, you do not need these police'. Mussolini rebuffed the Don's protection, and the Don told his people to go home and not listen to Mussolini's speech. His ego bruised, Mussolini called in the dogs.

A new Prefect was sent, Cesare Mori, with an order by Mussolini to control Sicily by any means necessary. "Your Excellency has carte blanche, the authority of the State must absolutely, I repeat absolutely, be re-established in Sicily. If the laws still in force hinder you, this will be no problem, as we will draw up new laws."

Mori had a very simple solution, he put everyone in jail even suspected of being a member of or helping 'The Black Hand' oppose the Fascist attempts to break the ancient law of water rights in Sicily and modernize beyond the Mafiosi-Landowner suppression of the population. Mario Puzo, the man who wrote The Godfather, wrote a very interesting book explaining the backstory of how the Mafia operated during this time in 'The Sicilian' which I can mine for some names and dates if you'd like.

And the jails began to fill, and the Mafia was suppressed for one of the few times in the island's history. But trying to get the Mafia out of Sicily is like trying to get the Catholics out of Rome; easier said than done.All this makes the Mafia the sworn enemy of Mussolini. Creating many interesting sub-points.

First, the Normandie, the largest ocean liner in the world, burns and sinks in New York Harbor under mysterious circumstances and rumors of sabotage.

The president of the United States, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, demanded something be done about this and dock security increased. His aides, knowing the true problem, asked Roosevelt who controlled the docks while he was governor of New York? Roosevelt immediately understood they'd have to cut a deal with the Mob.

First is the deal cut between OSS and Charles 'Lucky' Luciano. Luciano is the most powerful Mafia don in America before, during, and after WWII. Period. And this is despite the fact he was serving a jail sentence. Following Roosevelt's mandate that the waterfronts be protected, the US government approached Meyer Lansky - a Jew who sat at Arnold Rothstein's knee with Luciano and who was Luciano's greatest and most valuable ally as 'The Mob's Accountant' - about cutting a deal to have the Mafia control the East Coast waterfronts that they controlled anyway.

Lansky said something could probably be done, but Luciano would need to be moved to a less secure prison much closer to New York City; which was done almost immediately. In return, Luciano guaranteed there would be no dock strikes for the duration of the war, any suspicious activity would be suppressed or reported.

Secondly, when Patton lands in Sicily his OSS contacts are wearing armbands of yellow silk with an elaborate 'L' for 'Luciano' in black. The reason Patton was able to move through Sicily so quickly is 'General Mafia' was leading him through the goat paths known only to the Mafia smugglers who kept them secret from the authorities.

BTW, according to the official report, the Normandie sunk by accident. According to Luciano, Albert Anastasia 'The Lord High Executioner' of the Mob's dedicated hit squad 'Murder Incorporated', had one of his Crews sink the ship to create a threat on the docks only the Mob could handle.

Luciano is released from prison and extradited back to Italy following the war, which leaves Luciano with very hard feelings. He has Bugsy Segal whacked in Las Vegas for stealing from the mob while building the Flamingo Hotel; and Luciano and Lansky go all in on an plan to make Cuba the most decadent and oppulent destination on earth. Enter Fidel Castro and his killer friend, Che Guevara.

And, please remember, the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, SWORE to the American people where was no such thing as Organized Crime in America. And he held onto this stance until Bobby Kennedy - whose brother was elected president of the United States because the Chicago Mob stuffed the ballot boxes and gave Chicago to Kennedy - made war upon the Mob, and probably cost he and his brother his life for doing so. Why? The Mob had photos of Hoover dressed in women's clothes and engaging in very, very compromising homosexual relationships for that day and time that would cost him his career. And Hoover was all about Hoover's career.

Back to our story: When the Allies controlled Sicily, they assumed everyone in prison was an enemy of Mussolini, and they were all immediately restored to their former positions; which means the Allies put the Mafia back in business in Sicily for the duration of the war and the post-war rebuilding.

Thats actually some pretty interesting stuff, thanks!

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Thats actually some pretty interesting stuff, thanks!

My pleasure.

 

[am300307]

And, please remember, the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, SWORE to the American people where was no such thing as Organized Crime in America. And he held onto this stance until Bobby Kennedy - whose brother was elected president of the United States because the Chicago Mob stuffed the ballot boxes and gave Chicago to Kennedy - made war upon the Mob, and probably cost he and his brother his life for doing so. Why? The Mob had photos of Hoover dressed in women's clothes and engaging in very, very compromising homosexual relationships for that day and time that would cost him his career. And Hoover was all about Hoover's career.

Source?

 

[Easy-Kill]

Source?

Pics or it didn't happen

What part of the story do you wish a source for? You could just enjoy the post as opposed to trying to have an argument.

 

[Geriander]

Pics or it didn't happen

What part of the story do you wish a source for? You could just enjoy the post as opposed to trying to have an argument.

The mob having pictures of a crossdressing Hoover. That Hoover was a cross-dresser at all is highly disputed.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The mob having pictures of a crossdressing Hoover. That Hoover was a cross-dresser at all is highly disputed.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, the FBI would try and control that story and provide reverse spin to neutralize the image of their founder and that an embarasing story about a very powerful man has been managed over time.

Or are you suggesting Meyer Lansky and Frank Costello didn't publish the photos therefore they never existed? And Hoover was just misguided that there was a national crime syndicate under his nose he refused to acknowledge against every scrap of evidence to the contrary? Because this is not open to debate.

Perhaps next you'd like to dispute the massive collection of blackmail material held in Hoover's files he hung onto to keep himself in power regardless of how incompetent he was, Stalin style?

This is the problem with hearing about something then running to the internet and believing the first story you read versus following something for a few decades. It trains you to make decisions based off information you can only obtain easily and rapidly; and which can be easily shaded by the last person to edit the documents.

 

[Geriander]

I am shocked, SHOCKED, the FBI would try and control that story and provide reverse spin to neutralize the image of their founder and that an embarasing story about a very powerful man has been managed over time.

Or are you suggesting Meyer Lansky and Frank Costello didn't publish the photos therefore they never existed? And Hoover was just misguided that there was a national crime syndicate under his nose he refused to acknowledge against every scrap of evidence to the contrary? Because this is not open to debate.

Perhaps next you'd like to dispute the massive collection of blackmail material held in Hoover's files he hung onto to keep himself in power regardless of how incompetent he was, Stalin style?

This is the problem with hearing about something then running to the internet and believing the first story you read versus following something for a few decades.

Then please provide a source.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Then please provide a source.

You want a source? Fair enough.

Well, you already know the controversy exists, so you are a source. There are an endless supply of 'sources' providing information. The key is learning to filter over time, use reason and imagination to discern the truth- because at the end of the day the story has to make sense. You find a fact here, another over there, and weave a tapestry. And, if you are being honest, that tapestry will change over time and frequently becomes something you didn't expect when you started. And when the story you thought you were telling changes in mid stream, do you cross the river to see where the trail ends, or do you return to safety where you started? That depends on the story, and this is one I've been watching for a good deal of time.

First big problem: the Mafia records annex, where they write down and keep all their most valuable secrets; it is located right next to the one where Adolph Hitler gave primarily verbal orders to prevent a paper trail. Surely you do not think the FBI would keep records detailing Hoover's activities and the fact he was a victim of blackmail? This is a game of cover-ups and plausible deniability.

Second big problem: everyone is lying, and a viable cover story containing a fall guy to take heat off of you is the most valuable commodity in a court of law; local or international, private or public - keep your hands clean, blame someone else for your own crimes. And if the FBI the wrong person to protect themselves and their reputation, it wouldn't be the first time.

Third big problem: Omerta. The vow of silence based on honor creates a veil you must peer behind. Frank Costello - the voice of reason in the mafia, Luciano's Consigliere, the man on whom Vito Corelone is based; called 'The Prime Minister of the Underworld' - is shot at point blank range by Vincent 'the Chin' Gigante on orders of Vito Genovese. Costello, in front of police, looks at Gigante and says 'it wasn't him, I've never seen him before'. Gigante, in front of the cops, says 'Thanks, Frank'. The cops knew a lie when they saw one, but what can they do?

Fourth, and biggest, problem: What you must understand is there are two groups of people on the planet earth for which 'coincidence' is professionally forbidden: La Cosa Nostra and Intelligence Organizations. They share a lot in common; but nothing more than the idea that things don't just happen, they are made to happen. Best example is Vito Corleone threatening that if a bolt of lightning should strike his son, Michael, as he returned form Italy he would blame some of the people in the room where he was speaking.

This is the stew you are eating.

Hoover and the FBI swore there was no national Mafia, just local gangsters. He has an existing and long standing relationship with top mafia figures. Frank Costello was feeding him 'sure winners' in gambling circuits; amongst other things. In exchange, Hoover demanded there was no Mafia, and the FBI was not going to waste their time chasing bookies and loan sharks.

Then, through sheer dumb luck, at the Appalachin Meeting in 1957 of the full Commission assembled to resolve some bad blood, a local trooper noticed an array of limos and expensive cars around this isolated farmhouse that were very out of place and called for backup. Every don, consigliere, and major decision maker in the Underworld was there; cold busted. You have old Italian men in thousand dollar suits and alligator shoes running through the woods; some get away, many do not. After that, it is very hard to keep up the story there is no Mafia Commission, and Hoover immediately rolled over and went on the attack and said he was always against Organized Crime and all that was un-American.

The CIA, on the other hand, had other ideas and kept the Mafia very close for special purposes. Such as support and economic follow up for the Bay of Pigs, or whacking 'The Beard'. But these are the same guys who had the Mafia waiting to escort them through Sicily. Old Frenemies, an unholy alliance.

So the choice is very clear. Hoover was a total idiot who had no clue what was going on inside the United States despite have teams of highly trained Masonic lawyers at his beck and call and a file cabinet full of blackmail material on every major individual in the US; or the Mafia had incriminating dirt on him, as the story states, and forced him to ignore their existence.

For Hoover to argue no Mafia is difficult to swallow, especially as he had worked with them directly during WWII, made his bones going after Capone and Dillinger, and had been in power since the Teapot Dome Scandal!

Why? Because J. Edgar Hoover is the very image of law and order - of truth, Justice, and the American Way - according to his own spin masters. And God forbid that image be tarnished, what would happen to America if Hoover fell?

The story that was told, repeatedly and specifically, is that incriminating photos of Hoover were in the possession of Lansky and Costello. Maybe yes, maybe no; the rest is incontrovertible.

You pick which one you want to go with.

Other than that, have a nice day.

 

[ramius3443]

Its entirely reasonable to ask for the book/web source being used.

I would provide one myself to back this up, but sadly I forgot the name of that history doc

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Its entirely reasonable to ask for the book/web source being used.

I would provide one myself to back this up, but sadly I forgot the name of that history doc

It is absolutely ok to ask. The problem is what happens when a post has thirty facts gleaned from 20 sources.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

You want a source? Fair enough.

Well, you already know the controversy exists, so you are a source. There are an endless supply of 'sources' providing information. The key is learning to filter over time, use reason and imagination to discern the truth- because at the end of the day the story has to make sense. You find a fact here, another over there, and weave a tapestry. And, if you are being honest, that tapestry will change over time and frequently becomes something you didn't expect when you started. And when the story you thought you were telling changes in mid stream, do you cross the river to see where the trail ends, or do you return to safety where you started? That depends on the story, and this is one I've been watching for a good deal of time.

First big problem: the Mafia records annex, where they write down and keep all their most valuable secrets; it is located right next to the one where Adolph Hitler gave primarily verbal orders to prevent a paper trail. Surely you do not think the FBI would keep records detailing Hoover's activities and the fact he was a victim of blackmail? This is a game of cover-ups and plausible deniability.

Second big problem: everyone is lying, and a viable cover story containing a fall guy to take heat off of you is the most valuable commodity in a court of law; local or international, private or public - keep your hands clean, blame someone else for your own crimes. And if the FBI the wrong person to protect themselves and their reputation, it wouldn't be the first time.

Third big problem: Omerta. The vow of silence based on honor creates a veil you must peer behind. Frank Costello - the voice of reason in the mafia, Luciano's Consigliere, the man on whom Vito Corelone is based; called 'The Prime Minister of the Underworld' - is shot at point blank range by Vincent 'the Chin' Gigante on orders of Vito Genovese. Costello, in front of police, looks at Gigante and says 'it wasn't him, I've never seen him before'. Gigante, in front of the cops, says 'Thanks, Frank'. The cops knew a lie when they saw one, but what can they do?

Fourth, and biggest, problem: What you must understand is there are two groups of people on the planet earth for which 'coincidence' is professionally forbidden: La Cosa Nostra and Intelligence Organizations. They share a lot in common; but nothing more than the idea that things don't just happen, they are made to happen. Best example is Vito Corleone threatening that if a bolt of lightning should strike his son, Michael, as he returned form Italy he would blame some of the people in the room where he was speaking.

This is the stew you are eating.

Hoover and the FBI swore there was no national Mafia, just local gangsters. He has an existing and long standing relationship with top mafia figures. Frank Costello was feeding him 'sure winners' in gambling circuits; amongst other things. In exchange, Hoover demanded there was no Mafia, and the FBI was not going to waste their time chasing bookies and loan sharks.

Then, through sheer dumb luck, at the Appalachin Meeting in 1957 of the full Commission assembled to resolve some bad blood, a local trooper noticed an array of limos and expensive cars around this isolated farmhouse that were very out of place and called for backup. Every don, consigliere, and major decision maker in the Underworld was there; cold busted. You have old Italian men in thousand dollar suits and alligator shoes running through the woods; some get away, many do not. After that, it is very hard to keep up the story there is no Mafia Commission, and Hoover immediately rolled over and went on the attack and said he was always against Organized Crime and all that was un-American.

The CIA, on the other hand, had other ideas and kept the Mafia very close for special purposes. Such as support and economic follow up for the Bay of Pigs, or whacking 'The Beard'. But these are the same guys who had the Mafia waiting to escort them through Sicily. Old Frenemies, an unholy alliance.

So the choice is very clear. Hoover was a total idiot who had no clue what was going on inside the United States despite have teams of highly trained Masonic lawyers at his beck and call and a file cabinet full of blackmail material on every major individual in the US; or the Mafia had incriminating dirt on him, as the story states, and forced him to ignore their existence.

For Hoover to argue no Mafia is difficult to swallow, especially as he had worked with them directly during WWII, made his bones going after Capone and Dillinger, and had been in power since the Teapot Dome Scandal!

Why? Because J. Edgar Hoover is the very image of law and order - of truth, Justice, and the American Way - according to his own spin masters. And God forbid that image be tarnished, what would happen to America if Hoover fell?

The story that was told, repeatedly and specifically, is that incriminating photos of Hoover were in the possession of Lansky and Costello. Maybe yes, maybe no; the rest is incontrovertible.

You pick which one you want to go with.

Other than that, have a nice day.

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't have a source for this?

 

[ramius3443]

It is absolutely ok to ask. The problem is what happens when a post has thirty facts gleaned from 20 sources.

So pick one that covers enough bases.

 

[Pyoro]

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't have a source for this?

The proof is in that there is no proof.

As with any good conspiracy theory.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't have a source for this?

Depends on what you consider a source.

Did I cut and paste from one place? No. That is not how I operate.

Have I been following this for a few decades and have a great many mental notes from a vast array of sources? Absolutely. News, research, fiction, documentaries; you have to establish the backstory and know the list of characters before you dive into the deep end.

If you want me to drill down on a point, just ask, I'm happy to do so; but the way that is phrased someone might infer you are suggesting I am manufacturing data.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

So pick one that covers enough bases.

Writing is a muscle, this is my daily exercise; feel free to ask me to elaborate because that is what I came to do. But the answer you get will reflect the thought into the question asked.

'Source' is not a question, it is not an argument, it is merely a way for someone to insert themselves into a conversation while exercising zero effort for reasons of their own.

As soon as that happens, the silly 'agree' and 'disagree' buttons start lighting up because it becomes a political contest. When people start playing that little game it ruins a conversation and turns it into a competition where one little clique will hit 'agree' and the other will hit 'disagree'; and round and round it goes. No one reads, you take a position based on what your friend said and go. That is not a discussion, it is a game of tug of war on the playground.

The alternative is to ask a legitimate question: 'can you document Hoover dressed in drag'; resulting in an answer in some detail that is probably far more satisfactory than requesting detailed footnotes over which fact can be found in Wikipedia, which was written in a novel, which came out of a history class, which was found in a documentary, and the other which was read in the newspaper when such things existed on actual paper.

No thank you. I'll take a narrative tone, and hand out the occassional 'helpful' tag when it is warranted; and people can take or leave it as they like.

 

[Barsoom]

While the Hoover in drag story doesn't strike me as too far out, the off-hand references to Masonic lawyers and the Kennedy murders do. So does the idea that the mob could credibly blackmail the US government with a threat to disrupt the war effort during WW2. First because it is very uncertain whether they could keep their own men in line (which at that time included a lot of Jewish mobsters), second because sabotaging stuff at a dock crawling with soldiers is really, really difficult, and third because the US government dealt ruthlessly with even the remotest hint of a fifth column (hence Japanese-Americans in internment camps). Governments tend to respect limitations on their exercise of power during peacetime; during wartime, not so much.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

While the Hoover in drag story doesn't strike me as too far out, the off-hand references to Masonic lawyers and the Kennedy murders do. So does the idea that the mob could credibly blackmail the US government with a threat to disrupt the war effort during WW2. First because it is very uncertain whether they could keep their own men in line (which at that time included a lot of Jewish mobsters), second because sabotaging stuff at a dock crawling with soldiers is really, really difficult, and third because the US government dealt ruthlessly with even the remotest hint of a fifth column (hence Japanese-Americans in internment camps). Governments tend to respect limitations on their exercise of power during peacetime; during wartime, not so much.

One favor, if you are going to misrepresent what I said, do it one at a time rather than just lumping a bunch of generalities into the same bucket.

One at a time, with footnotes:

The FBI was a Masonic organization under Hoover. Period. The path upwards was a law degree and a 32 degree mason's ring. This is a known fact. Want proof? Hoover's office, just as he maintained it, is in a museum in Washington D.C. You might think it would be in the FBI museum, but it is in the National Masonic Temple.

On the website of the National Hoover Foundation:

The J. Edgar Hoover room dedicated to the law enforcement community was constructed in The Temple where his desk, chair, and many historical items from the collection were displayed. Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity –these words not only represent the chief qualities of the FBI, but also characteristics that made the life of John Edgar Hoover, 33 degree, G. C., so significant to our nation. As Ill. Hoover said in addressing The Supreme Council, 33 degree, on October 19, 1965: "America will continue to progress in dignity and freedom so long as our people cherish liberty and justice and truth and honor God. Faith in God. That is the fortress of free men."

So let's start there.

If the primary agents investigating crimes for the Federal Bureau of Investigation under the hierarchy established by Hoover are both lawyers, and masons - being a mason is your key to upward mobility in terms of your ability to keep a secret and obey hidden orders - what term would you prefer I use? You think the Weather Underground was found by anything other than FBI agents using illegal wiretaps by men who knew how to keep their mouths shut and get the job done by any means necessary? Franklin Roosevelt patted Hoover on the back and laughed when he heard an FBI agent was caught red handed putting illegal wiretaps on his enemies. Masonry was important to Hoover, therefore it was important to the FBI and all who worked there. "You want a promotion? Didn't see you at the lodge, but Bill was there and he gets the new job" - that is the way that game is played.

Second. I gave a very detailed narrative of the events on the docks during World War II. I gave names and dates to corroborate everything I said. You reply with a vague generality about troop concentrations milling about on the docks. I am unconvinced you know how that actually works.

Third, you inform me there were Jewish gangsters as if it is a fact I've overlooked. I've mentioned Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Segal, and their relationship to Luciano and Arnold Rothstein how many times in this thread?

I have no problem backing up any argument I make, but do me the courtesy of reading what I write rather than re-writing what you think I said.

Oh, and the murder of John F. Kennedy. Oswald has direct ties to both the US government and the boss of New Orleans, Carlos Marcello. He famously has access to US intelligence, goes to Russia, and comes back again. He takes a low level job at a book depository and fires, lets just say he was all by himself, three shots at Kennedy. Lone wolf assassin. Problem, he is shot by Jack Ruby in mob fashion, and Jack Ruby is directly linked to the Chicago Outfit.

Hard to argue the Mob has not presence in this equation, I find.