Are Assembly and Syndicate T1 starting armies just too weak?

[The Founder]

As for "needing to pick specific equipment makes the starting army bad"... I have preferred equipment for every faction I've played so far, just stuff that seems like it complements what my army and hero wanna be doing anyway, and yes, often that is compensating for a weakness and only occasionally enhancing a strength.

Favourite equipment is one thing. Unable to play with them unless I pick it is another altogether.

Just because I can compensate for my various genetic disorders to some degree, does not mean I do not have them. And would prefer them fixed, if that was doable reliably.
Luckily a weak starting army can be fixed easier then my expressed DNA.

It means having scouts as party of your army is normal, stop shaming scouts.

I am not. I am using them for what they are designed, built, trained and equipped.

If your scouts do fight in the frontline, someone really messed up.

i auto every site defender combat and scavengers are the most consistent t1 unit for clearing sites without casualties, and in manual combat are absolutely brutal with a single mod attached (or on their own, if you're comparing them to unmodded units)

i consider them the most powerful racial t1 in the game, they're extremely good

sometimes i get a casuality or two when they're unmodded (very rare, happens much more frequently with other t1s) but my turn 1 play is to research the voidtech phasewalk mod and immediately put that on every scav, at which point they never die because they're fucking slasher movie villians

So this only works if you go for a specific secret tech? That does not really proof they are viable, it only means you learned to compensate for that weakness.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

after playing some more syndicate, i think they suffer from a lack of overland healing early game. i have to manual every fight just because im always starting damaged. Overseer doesnt seem to have passive bio heal.

edit:

scouts are fine in battle. they often bring something to the table that mainline t1 units do not. special abilities, wild weasel, Air-2-Air bonuses, etc.

 

[NINJEW]

So this only works if you go for a specific secret tech? That does not really proof they are viable, it only means you learned to compensate for that weakness.

Do you have like a selective memory problem? Did you just not read the part where I talk about them unmodded? Damn dude

Let me state it very clearly, right here: they are great unmodded and very rarely die. I can think of an easy example of a secret tech mod that changes them from "very good" to "probably just broken," but you could put basically any defensive or mobility mod on them to make them extremely good, which a number of secret techs have (this is not shoring up their weaknesses, this is doubling down on their strengths). And, again, even unmodded, they are excellent t1 units

 

[NINJEW]

If you are manual combating your fights I can not imagine you having scav casualties to early game site clearing unless you're making some radical misplays.

 

[NINJEW]

Scouts are alright as a temporary slot filler but you really dont want to be using either of your 2 starting scouts for clearing, the opportunity cost you're paying in missing out on from having map information and grabbing the free pick ups is too immense.

 

[Garresh]

I can't speak for assembly, but syndication indentured are absolutely amazing. The thing you're missing about their shotgun is that it pushes people out of cover. This combined with overseers granting them invulnerability and extra actions guarantees that you can put the enemy in a bad position. I actually found with proper support, my indentured outperformed a stack of WRAITH TANKS in clearing. I was surprised to say the least. But they just stack bonuses so much better than other units.

 

[NINJEW]

What map settings are you using OP

Wanna know so I can play out the battles you're apparently facing that you are losing the best unit in the game to

 

[Jean-Luc]

Of course if you pick Strong Starting armies because the army is that weak, that kind off prooves my point

I never said I picked strong starting army and specifically later pointed out I was talking about either getting a sniper for the hero or getting the unit early. Then I also pointed out that it's not necessary, just something you can do.

You can start with one on your commander or buy it for them, you can get the unit itself pretty quickly too. It's not necessary to do either though.

Disagree if you want but don't lie and put words in my mouth.

 

[NINJEW]

so OP, i took you are your most generous, and assumed you're playing normal starting army, on extreme world difficulty. the only military related perk i took was basic assault equipment - i didn't even take a vice as that would make my commander stronger - and, as rock monsters were specifically mentioned as being troublesome, i went out of my way to attack specifically site defenders that included rocks. after each fight, i made a new map, so that level ups or tech wouldn't be a factor in success

here's 3 turn 1/2 fights i did, in a row, in which i lost 0 units. these were also the first 3 of these i did. these were easy fights in manual, i was not straining my tactical abilities to produce these results

i hate to be the bearer of bad news man but i think you might be bad at video games

 

[Eji1700]

I am not. I am using them for what they are designed, built, trained and equipped.

Syndicate scouts are literally designed to be excellent flankers and tanks for your early army. You don't need to use them but they're built to tank better than any other scout thanks to the emergency escape which allows them tank more shots than anyone else and often survive.

Further the bolas are excellent when you don't have a great flanking shot, but NEED a hit to turn the unit around so an indentured who's closer can get flanking shots, while also being wonderful vs any melee unit since an immobilize that procs is basically removing a unit from the fight for 2 turns.

So i don't get where you're getting the diea that they aren't designed for that, because the devs clearly had that in mind when they made them. In fact all of the scouts in this game have viable supplemental features that aren't just for flying around and running away and if you're not using them for some strange reason then you're weakening your open for no good reason.

I will frequently have my scout support a fight if I happen to be clearing a camp that's in the same area (because why wouldn't I?), and again, no you don't need to.

 

[Gyor]

Honestly basing your assement of a faction based on Starting Army seems wierd to me, as long as it can seize the first areas needed it did its job, after that others things quickly become more important.

And basing you judgement of a unit on the starting army alone misses the big picture.

So what if the starting army Indentured are weaker, with one of the first techs you can get a Doctorine that makes them super cheap to replace.

 

[Ethorin]

I really like how viable basically every scout in this game is as a combat unit. We've even had the Dodger OWL's guy up in this thread and another guy in a different thread mentioning he likes Shrikes as early military for Amazons.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I really like how viable basically every scout in this game is as a combat unit. We've even had the Dodger OWL's guy up in this thread and another guy in a different thread mentioning he likes Shrikes as early military for Amazons.

Plus you can just make them immediately in any colony. They're cheaper than normal infantry, but if they bring something to the table that's better than literally any other unit that faction has, why not build one and throw them into your army? Kir'ko give anti-air, assembly give healing, and Dvar are great hit and run debuffers.

 

[Gyor]

Honestly basing your assement of a faction based on Starting Army seems wierd to me, as long as it can seize the first areas needed it did its job, after that others things quickly become more important.

And basing you judgement of a unit on the starting army alone misses the big picture.

So what if the starting army Indentured are weaker, with one of the first techs you can get a Doctorine that makes them super cheap to replacereplace and maintain.

 

[Gyor]

I really like how viable basically every scout in this game is as a combat unit. We've even had the Dodger OWL's guy up in this thread and another guy in a different thread mentioning he likes Shrikes as early military for Amazons.

The irony is the one unit that is actually best at Scouting, not fighting, but Scouting is the Syndicate's Runner, because of Universal Camflouge and Floating.

Heck even the Synducates Mirage and Wraith are good at Scouting.

 

[Ethorin]

Runner's are also still pretty good at fighting

 

[NINJEW]

Honestly basing your assement of a faction based on Starting Army seems wierd to me, as long as it can seize the first areas needed it did its job, after that others things quickly become more important.

eh, your starting army's strength is going to determine how aggressively you can clear early and also how much you need to invest in early military. it's certainly a factor in assessing a faction, but yeah basing your entire opinion of a faction off of that alone is a pretty bad call.

 

[Ethorin]

honestly... I just disagree with him about the starting armies being weak.

 

[Chikanuk]

inter.. indent... Syndicate t1 unit can be buffed in many many ways with over units mods, and it also cheapes t1 unit in the game, you even got free ones via racial mind control. Yes, they a bit weaker than vanguard trooper, but win in numbers and racial synergy. And they have collard wich grant them sweet resistances.
Assemby scavengers can be RESSURECTED and they got lifesteal on attacks.

About "wich one support is better"... well, its obviously assembly one. They can revive, they can summon new units... And both this skills can be improved.

 

[Blastom]

Agree the starting units being weaker as Syndicate, but it's not unmanagable. I can easily manual fight early sites with no possible loses.

The Indentured is supposed to be some kind of conscript, compare to Vanguard troops, with half price and upkeep. You cannot expect them to perform the same as other races.

The Assembly scavengers are ok to me. They can gain their lost health back via life leeching. Being a melee requires more thoughtful movements for sure. Just don't expect their shotgun acts like the spike gun of Dvar - you need to go into melee to replenish their lost health.