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The overseer just does not compare to those.

The psionic weapon group and racial upgrades scale the Overseer into the late game and provide him with new abilities.

Mantra of Clarity which is available early makes the Ov's heal and Cerebral Override provide 20% evasion while his base attack can mark enemies and make them easier to hit, it just works passively. Later on Mantra of Life makes both buffs heal an additional 15hp and provide 3 shields, again passively. And then you have the Control Amplifier with +25% dmg to all Indentured on the battlefield and since it's a psionic buff they all get those heals, shields and obfuscation.

As arc repeaters Indentured can easily destroy high tier vehicles, with mods they can reduce resistance against their attacks (like armor shredding that always works even when there's no armor), stagger, passively stun. The slave army is very powerful and scales up like no other.

Sure, you don't have all that at the start but Mantra of Clarity and Static Buildup Modules are very nice and available early. The only significant problem are the Blue Quartzites. There you just have to be more careful, do some more dmg with the Overseer, give your heroes a non arc weapon, it's not a huge deal.
 
The psionic weapon group and racial upgrades scale the Overseer into the late game and provide him with new abilities.

Mantra of Clarity which is available early makes the Ov's heal and Cerebral Override provide 20% evasion while his base attack can mark enemies and make them easier to hit, it just works passively. Later on Mantra of Life makes both buffs heal an additional 15hp and provide 3 shields, again passively. And then you have the Control Amplifier with +25% dmg to all Indentured on the battlefield and since it's a psionic buff they all get those heals, shields and obfuscation.

As arc repeaters Indentured can easily destroy high tier vehicles, with mods they can reduce resistance against their attacks (like armor shredding that always works even when there's no armor), stagger, passively stun. The slave army is very powerful and scales up like no other.

Sure, you don't have all that at the start but Mantra of Clarity and Static Buildup Modules are very nice and available early. The only significant problem are the Blue Quartzites. There you just have to be more careful, do some more dmg with the Overseer, give your heroes a non arc weapon, it's not a huge deal.

And on top of that the 10% Crit chance buff to indentured.
 
You're taking losses before round 4? How? What fights are you taking that would actually cost you indentured that you can take with the other races?
The fights that are on pickups, non-landmark features and NPC faction killquests (wich I have to do for the influence).

...I wasn't arguing about the Assembly because Assembly are awesome... unless you piss off the Psi-Fish which... I mean... why? Quartzite are the single rarest marauder type in my experience though I suppose yours was different... and of course, half the early game Quartzite do unfocused Arc Damage soooooo
Quartite depend heavily on the clime, maybe you just always avoided hot and lava in particular?
The jumping Arc attack is not even that bad. Assembly got Arc-resistance and post battle heal. A bit of distrubuted damage will not affeect them.
It is the part where my scavengers have to rush into melee range while under fire and then are unable to heal back the damage, that kills them.
Being outgunned and unable to heal of the enemy (wich is a core racial feature) really scews you.

And you can meet any kind of enemy on pickups, features or as part of quests.

The psionic weapon group and racial upgrades scale the Overseer into the late game and provide him with new abilities.
Stop. Mentioning. Late game!
Or even midgame.
It was slightly misspelled, but still in the title: "starting armies"
If you choose not to even read the title, this is no basis for a discussion.
 
Like I said, Mantra and Static Buildup come early, the Mantra is especially crucial. Syndicate can handle the first 5 turns or so no problem and is more than competitive later on. Cerebral Override makes the Indentured unkillable and having access to snipers is a big advantage.
 
Quartite depend heavily on the clime, maybe you just always avoided hot and lava in particular?
The jumping Arc attack is not even that bad. Assembly got Arc-resistance and post battle heal. A bit of distrubuted damage will not affeect them.
It is the part where my scavengers have to rush into melee range while under fire and then are unable to heal back the damage, that kills them.
Being outgunned and unable to heal of the enemy (wich is a core racial feature) really scews you.

You don't rush your Scavangers into battle. They go into guard mode while your sniper baits the AI. Once the AI moves up to engage the sniper, your melee is in range and will murder just about anything with zero loses, and almost no health loss, short of a pure fish or lava rocks army. Assembly starter army is great imo.
 
Like I said, Mantra and Static Buildup come early, the Mantra is especially crucial. Syndicate can handle the first 5 turns or so no problem and is more than competitive later on. Cerebral Override makes the Indentured unkillable and having access to snipers is a big advantage.
he did say he didn't have one in his starting army and you keep insisting he does... having played with Syndicate a few times on a variety of settings I'm pretty sure you're playing on Strong starting armies and he isn't. Strong Starting armies does indeed give you a Guild Sniper to go with your other fellows. Every other starting army setting does not.
Quartite depend heavily on the clime, maybe you just always avoided hot and lava in particular?
The jumping Arc attack is not even that bad. Assembly got Arc-resistance and post battle heal. A bit of distrubuted damage will not affeect them.
that was my point, Liquid Flames can be annoying but frankly... what's stopping you from waiting a bit when you see a Liquid Flame stack? As for avoiding hot and Lava... I LIKE both those things, the bonuses are nice.
 
Just fired up an Assembly game. Psynumbra tech, leader with the psi rifle. I've had no problems at all in any of my first fights in the early game (aside from it just crashed on me for the first time mid fight).

I just sat my sniper on overwatch, put my leader a bit forward in cover and my scavengers in cover somewhere between. Let them come to you get some shots in, including the shotguns then run in and finish off the wounded by hand. Admittedly I didn't encounter any ethereal or rock stacks but if I had I'd just ignore them for a bit till I had something to compliment my scavengers.

With the ability to heal whilst damaging the enemy the scavengers feel pretty strong to me and allow you to finish fights with good health remaining.
 
he did say he didn't have one in his starting army and you keep insisting he does... having played with Syndicate a few times on a variety of settings I'm pretty sure you're playing on Strong starting armies and he isn't. Strong Starting armies does indeed give you a Guild Sniper to go with your other fellows. Every other starting army setting does not.

You can start with one on your commander or buy it for them, you can get the unit itself pretty quickly too. It's not necessary to do either though.
 
"They need some getting used to, but I can work with them" this is how you described the Dvar consider those words for the Assembly and the Syndicate.
Now I haven't played much of the Syndicate but I felt there starting set up was quite strong maybe even the strongest of all the starting armies.However they have been defended enough by everyone else here to make it clear what makes them effective. The Assembly however... Now based on what you have posted it sounds like you are trying to use Scavengers like Frenzied this is wrong. Don't rush in with them move from cover to cover until you can get close enough to strike, take one round of overwatch if you have to but only if you know that you can get back more health then you lose and since you gain health after a successful fight you will ideally walk away from a fight without losing a unit. Of course the scout unit has a heal to help keep your troops alive in tougher fights but you seem unwilling to use it suggesting you are complaining about the faction not playing the way you want it to instead of learning how they should be played. Oh and if you know that assimilate doesn't work on certain enemies Do Not fight those enemies until you have an army that can. TLDR I recommend playing with the Assembly and Syndicate a bit more find out they are good at and how they differ from other factions then judge them.
 
Like I said, Mantra and Static Buildup come early, the Mantra is especially crucial. Syndicate can handle the first 5 turns or so no problem and is more than competitive later on. Cerebral Override makes the Indentured unkillable and having access to snipers is a big advantage.
The Assembly get's a starting sniper, despite being a rush army.
The Syndicate does not, despite being a standoff army.

Of course if you pick Strong Starting armies because the army is that weak, that kind off prooves my point ;)

You don't rush your Scavangers into battle. They go into guard mode while your sniper baits the AI. Once the AI moves up to engage the sniper, your melee is in range and will murder just about anything with zero loses, and almost no health loss, short of a pure fish or lava rocks army. Assembly starter army is great imo.

Now based on what you have posted it sounds like you are trying to use Scavengers like Frenzied this is wrong. Don't rush in with them move from cover to cover until you can get close enough to strike
You seem to missinterpret "rush army" with "take no cover and use no defense mode".
I of course move them from cover to cover, until they are in range for at least one attack.

And sniper baiting does not work, if the enemy has stronger ranged. Or he just moves along all the vectors where the sniper is not overwatching. And there are plenlty of sightblockers on the maps.

that was my point, Liquid Flames can be annoying but frankly... what's stopping you from waiting a bit when you see a Liquid Flame stack?
Why can I not use wait? Because they outgun me.
7 Damage on a repeating ranged attack just beats the shootgun scavengers got.

I just sat my sniper on overwatch, put my leader a bit forward in cover and my scavengers in cover somewhere between. Let them come to you get some shots in, including the shotguns then run in and finish off the wounded by hand. Admittedly I didn't encounter any ethereal or rock stacks but if I had I'd just ignore them for a bit till I had something to compliment my scavengers.
If those are on a important terrain feature or the NPC faction quest you need for influence, you do not have that option.
Progress in the early game should not be luck based.

With the ability to heal whilst damaging the enemy the scavengers feel pretty strong to me and allow you to finish fights with good health remaining.
The issue with that strenght is, that it is part of the gameplan for that unit. He needs that healing because just moving towards the enemy will encounter plenty of hits.
And it stops working against the 2 factions that also happen to outgun you.

Of course the scout unit has a heal to help keep your troops alive in tougher fights but you seem unwilling to use it suggesting you are complaining about the faction not playing the way you want it to
As their name clearly says: Scouts are for scouting.
Using them in the main army because the starting army is that weak, that means 1/2 of your scouting is not getting done.

I do not keep my scouts in my Vanguard, Kirko, Dvar and Amazons armies either. If I have to do it here for similar performance, that simply means those armies are weak.
 
Why can I not use wait? Because they outgun me.
wait, as in, "don't fight this stack yet"...
As their name clearly says: Scouts are for scouting.
...a scout who can only scout is a bad unit and no one would make them. It was an explicit problem in AoW3 with the Warlord, they had a scout who only scouted, and you needed to MAKE that scout, everyone else had summoned scouts and several of those summoned scouts were at least sometimes decent units(wisps man...) In Planetfall EVERY scout has SOMETHING they can usefully do in a fight. The Assembly Scout has a thing that is VERY useful in a fight and I see no reason not to bring them if you have trouble keeping stuff alive in the face of ranged firepower.

There is in fact a Vanguard Build that uses OWL's as it's primary early combat power via Dodge Stacking. Scouts being only for scouting is a silly thought, scouts are ALSO troops.
Progress in the early game should not be luck based.
The early game is massively luck based though, you need the right terrains in the right combinations to make cities that will actually be useful.
 
This is such a pointless discussion. You're trying to argue that in the first 5 turns the starting army of some factions is weaker than others but you're not allowed to use a scout unit in your starting army... even though in your first 6 stack there's a scout unit. Let alone use perks like sniper equipment to give your indentured sniper support.

And even if some starting armies are better than others it is compensated. Syndicate indentured are useful through the entire game unlike some others (I'm looking at you Trenchers) and assembly gets research through battles which gets you into the midgame much earlier.
 
I auto resolve with full stacks of OWLs.

But here let's have a real life example and translate that into games because that's always fun, directly from wikipedia:

The 1st Marine Division is currently organized around four regiments and several Battalions which includes the following:


Their stack of 12 includes two Recon Battalions, let's do some magic hand waving that's, 1 Scout per group of 6. Le gasp.
 
wait, as in, "don't fight this stack yet"...
If I have to wait to fight certain groups, that means my army is weak.
You are making my point for me, while making it sound like you disagree.

The early game is massively luck based though, you need the right terrains in the right combinations to make cities that will actually be useful.
Incorrect. The game will overwrite terrain around yoru starting position to give you at leaast 4 sectors of expansion. As the developer of the Arctic Planet mod had to find out the hard way:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1831225421

This is such a pointless discussion. You're trying to argue that in the first 5 turns the starting army of some factions is weaker than others but you're not allowed to use a scout unit in your starting army... even though in your first 6 stack there's a scout unit.

Let alone use perks like sniper equipment to give your indentured sniper support.
If I have to keep the scout in.
Or not attack the stacks
Or pick specific equipment.

The. Starting. Army. Is. Weak.

The 1st Marine Division is currently organized around four regiments and several Battalions which includes the following:


Their stack of 12 includes two Recon Battalions, let's do some magic hand waving that's, 1 Scout per group of 6. Le gasp.
How does the realife marine corp organisation mater for Cyborgs fighting Living Psionic Entities and Living Rock Formations on Ceti Alpha 5?
 
If I have to wait to fight certain groups, that means my army is weak.
You are making my point for me, while making it sound like you disagree.


Incorrect. The game will overwrite terrain around yoru starting position to give you at leaast 4 sectors of expansion. As the developer of the Arctic Planet mod had to find out the hard way:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1831225421




If I have to keep the scout in.
Or not attack the stacks
Or pick specific equipment.

The. Starting. Army. Is. Weak.


How does the realife marine corp organisation mater for Cyborgs fighting Living Psionic Entities and Living Rock Formations on Ceti Alpha 5?

If that's your argument, does that mean that the other armies are weak if I can find combinations/opponents that either force me to keep the scouts in or avoid those armies as other factions? Cause I'm pretty sure that I can find situations for all/most of the factions where that's true.

Even then, with a weak starting army as the Syndicate I was able to find an enemy to attack and win against every turn for the first 4 turns without using a scout unit in that army. I did lose an indentured just after modding them, but that was carelessness and bad luck on my part.
 
Frankly I have one or two types of enemies I avoid at the start for basically every faction I've played so far.

Your opinion about Assembly is apparently based entirely on "but Lava Quartzite are a pain". Your opinion about Syndicate is "Turn Refresh is a bad buff and not having a grenade sucks".

As for "needing to pick specific equipment makes the starting army bad"... I have preferred equipment for every faction I've played so far, just stuff that seems like it complements what my army and hero wanna be doing anyway, and yes, often that is compensating for a weakness and only occasionally enhancing a strength.
 
If I have to keep the scout in.
Or not attack the stacks
Or pick specific equipment.

The. Starting. Army. Is. Weak.


How does the realife marine corp organisation mater for Cyborgs fighting Living Psionic Entities and Living Rock Formations on Ceti Alpha 5?

It means having scouts as party of your army is normal, stop shaming scouts.

Just remember: my mid game army is FILLED with scouts.

When I play Assembly, I auto resolve everything till later and I don't even use "stronger starting army". Strong and weak is relative to what others are doing and if you auto resolve as Vanguard you're going to also run into casualties. Pretty sure that's going to be the case for almost everyone unless you fight with a 6 stack and another stack of reinforcements early on.

I also pick and choose which things to fight if I don't want to suffer any losses and manual if I must.
 
i auto every site defender combat and scavengers are the most consistent t1 unit for clearing sites without casualties, and in manual combat are absolutely brutal with a single mod attached (or on their own, if you're comparing them to unmodded units)

i consider them the most powerful racial t1 in the game, they're extremely good

sometimes i get a casuality or two when they're unmodded (very rare, happens much more frequently with other t1s) but my turn 1 play is to research the voidtech phasewalk mod and immediately put that on every scav, at which point they never die because they're fucking slasher movie villians